What are Hamas' leaders thinking?

[Little Dragon]

I'm not sure there's a lot of thinking going on there.

Agreed, just rabid fundamentalist hatred.

 

[Little Dragon]

Really? We shouldn't try to understand why this happened???

Hamas refuses to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and has repeatedly murdered Israelis, over the years. They are a terrorist organisation, driven by hatred and a desire for bloodshed. They refused to uphold agreements between the PLO and Israel, and so yet again they are using the Palestinians as pawns and as human shields, they do not care one bit about the lives of Palestinians. Knowing full well the fury that they have drawn upon Gaza.
I have no sympathy for Hamas. None whatsoever.

 

[Sargonski]

I think it is difficult to understand religious/political fanaticism because so much of it is anti-social and defies the normal standards of living as a cooperative human. Terrorists are never rational actors, and they seem to operate with an 'ends justifies the means' thinking, including their own deaths.

I don't think Israel is totally blameless. They have been resistant to cooperate in recent years, and the tensions have been increasing as an example. The intelligence failures on Israel and the USA is notable here. How Hamas got so many weapons and created a plan without detection is a huge question. How they got these weapons is another question, and that can ripple to other nations in a regional war. I think it was a mistake from a military perspective because Hamas poked a bear. They won't win, and they don't have much support in the world, especially by taking hostages. Frankly I don't think many hostages will survive. My guess is the hostages is two-fold: that they can inflict terrorism in the form of making Israel think twice about tactics, and using them as human shields.

I'm surprized Israel dropped the ball on this. It could have been due in part to their divided society and corrupt government, as that scenario makes patrioitism and duty a difficult commitment.

This has nothing to do with religious fanaticism .. nor political fanatacism depending on one's definition as everything is political.. Your claim about "Terrorists" being rational actors is completely wrong .. Terrorists are often Rational Actors ... Israeli Terrorists .. US terrorists .. Biden Obama Bush .. massive acts of terrorism .. thinking nothing of wiping out whole families .. attacks intentionally killing civilians..

"I don't think Israel is totally blamless" - well that is good .. because Israel is totally to blame .. someone put it nicely - when you treat people like animals .. don't be surprised when the act accordingly. These people in Gaza are in an open air prison .. Israel committing terrorist attacks on a near daily basis over the last few months .. on a regular basis over the last 70 years .. too many to count. They bomb their water treatment .. and power plant .. war crimes o plenty.. targeted assassinations -- killing the target and all the civilians in that local .. taking out an apartment block with 1000 lb bombs .. The latest tactic .. shoot the ankles of protesters ..

Gaza is a war crime .. ruled as such countless times by the UN .. and various human rights groups .. Human Rights Watch being one of the notable ones of late.

The occupied has every right to engage in violence against the Occupier .. these illegal activities - stealing land that doesn't belong to it - warrent a response .. such as the help given to Ukraine .. also engaged in violence against an occupier.. an illegal occupier. .. We should be arming the Palestinians like we did Ukraine .. working with Iran .. would be a good plan .. Put this dog off its leash down .. a dog that happens to have nuclear weapons .. and so should be behaving better..

"Im surprized Israel Dropped the ball" -- on that we agree.

 

[Little Dragon]

We should be arming the Palestinians like we did Ukraine .. working with Iran .. would be a good plan

Thanks for the chuckles. Your obvious bias and intolerance is obvious. Post something else, to make me laugh. Terrorist sympathizer...

 

[Little Dragon]

Put this dog off its leash down

Interesting terminology. How else would you like to dehumanize the Israelis? Why stop there? Be honest.

 

[Colt]

I'm trying to imagine the discussions that occurred in Hamas HQ as they were planning this attack...

What goals did they have in mind?

Here's one of my theories, but I'd like to hear other theories, so maybe post your theory before hitting the spoiler button?

Spoiler: Hamas' goals

I think maybe Islamic martyrdom might have been one of the motivators?

Someone needs to ask a question that occurred to me immediately after such a large, well-planned attack. DID intelligence know or suspect that such an attack was coming????? With all the money we spend on intelligence in the U.S. sometimes it seems they are either clueless or withhold what they know! How did Israeli intelligence miss this????

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The occupied has every right to engage in violence against the Occupier ..

... including shooting their children in the back, gang-raping the daughters and granddaughters, brutalizing their grandparents, and generally displaying every manner of barbarism against cornered captives.

Your ignorant rant deserves no further attention. Feel free to spread your vile and malignant antisemitism on my ignore list.

 

[Colt]

This has nothing to do with religious fanaticism .. nor political fanatacism depending on one's definition as everything is political.. Your claim about "Terrorists" being rational actors is completely wrong .. Terrorists are often Rational Actors ... Israeli Terrorists .. US terrorists .. Biden Obama Bush .. massive acts of terrorism .. thinking nothing of wiping out whole families .. attacks intentionally killing civilians..

"I don't think Israel is totally blamless" - well that is good .. because Israel is totally to blame .. someone put it nicely - when you treat people like animals .. don't be surprised when the act accordingly. These people in Gaza are in an open air prison .. Israel committing terrorist attacks on a near daily basis over the last few months .. on a regular basis over the last 70 years .. too many to count. They bomb their water treatment .. and power plant .. war crimes o plenty.. targeted assassinations -- killing the target and all the civilians in that local .. taking out an apartment block with 1000 lb bombs .. The latest tactic .. shoot the ankles of protesters ..

Gaza is a war crime .. ruled as such countless times by the UN .. and various human rights groups .. Human Rights Watch being one of the notable ones of late.

The occupied has every right to engage in violence against the Occupier .. these illegal activities - stealing land that doesn't belong to it - warrent a response .. such as the help given to Ukraine .. also engaged in violence against an occupier.. an illegal occupier. .. We should be arming the Palestinians like we did Ukraine .. working with Iran .. would be a good plan .. Put this dog off its leash down .. a dog that happens to have nuclear weapons .. and so should be behaving better..

"Im surprized Israel Dropped the ball" -- on that we agree.

Palestinians are occupied by their own ignorance and the consequence of past terrorist attacks against the Jews who would otherwise live together with their neighbors if it weren't for their desire to kill them!

 

[Mock Turtle]

"I don't think Israel is totally blamless" - well that is good .. because Israel is totally to blame .. someone put it nicely - when you treat people like animals .. don't be surprised when the act accordingly. These people in Gaza are in an open air prison .. Israel committing terrorist attacks on a near daily basis over the last few months .. on a regular basis over the last 70 years .. too many to count. They bomb their water treatment .. and power plant .. war crimes o plenty.. targeted assassinations -- killing the target and all the civilians in that local .. taking out an apartment block with 1000 lb bombs .. The latest tactic .. shoot the ankles of protesters ..

You seem to have missed out the bit about rockets fired into Israel regularly and other such, so as Israel to want to see more separation between such militants doing so and them.

 

[Little Dragon]

... including shooting their children in the back, gang-raping the daughters and granddaughters, brutalizing their grandparents, and generally displaying every manner of barbarism against cornered captives.

They're not freedom fighters, they're savages. Israel has every right to destroy them on sight, I only hope they can do so with minimal collateral damage. Since the Palestinian people are controlled and exploited and radicalized, by HAMAS. The children of Palestine, do not deserve Israeli retaliation. HAMAS do though. I hope the IDF save their fury for HAMAS fighters.

 

[exchemist]

From the analysis I have read, it seems likely Hamas was put out by being sidelined in the careful rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Israel that the US (Blinken et al) has been trying to choreograph. This would have involved some kind of agreement for KSA to exert pressure, and/or provide inducements, to Palestinian factions to calm down in exchange for Israel calling off the land grabs by "settlers" and the desecration of Al Aqsa mosque and other Palestinian hot button issues. So Hamas has decided to knock over the pile of bricks, making KSA look impotent in the process. Iran may well have a hand in this, as the Serious Beards in Tehran are jockeying for position with MbS to be the prime power brokers in the Middle East. So another US peace initiative is still-born.

The question now is what is the wise course of action for Israel. A ground invasion is all very well, and no doubt revenge will make them feel better for a bit. But what then? History is littered with military campaigns, some of them, ahem, very recent, in which insufficient thought was given to what to do after the "enemy" is defeated militarily. In the present case, given that Hamas is a terrorist group, grown from the fertile soil of the Palestinians effectively imprisoned in the Gaza strip, defeating and killing them will be sowing dragon's teeth: more will spring up, from the young men in the population who live through the hideous experience. Has Israel the stomach for a permanent occupation? If not, what do they intend to do with Gaza?

I read that Netanyahu is warning the population to leave - but Israel and Egypt have closed all the exits! I have a nasty feeling retributive action may get ahead of what cool heads would advise and lead to Netanyahu - and Israel- falling into one of the various elephant traps. The fact he has aligned himself with various unsavoury (and arguably mad) far-right factions may limit his scope for manoeuvre and make this more likely.

 

[Father Heathen]

The occupied has every right to engage in violence against the Occupier

Wait a minute, if I'm not mistaken, weren't you the one who worked yourself up into a fevered sweat attempting to defend Russia's occupation of Ukrainian territories?

 

[Father Heathen]

Motives aside, I'm curious what Hamas hoped to achieve strategically by this attack, or what results they were expecting other than swift reprisal.

 

[F1fan]

This has nothing to do with religious fanaticism .. nor political fanatacism depending on one's definition as everything is political.. Your claim about "Terrorists" being rational actors is completely wrong

I said they aren't rational actors.

.. Terrorists are often Rational Actors ... Israeli Terrorists .. US terrorists .. Biden Obama Bush .. massive acts of terrorism .. thinking nothing of wiping out whole families .. attacks intentionally killing civilians..

So you are twisting and manipulating the definition of terrorism to frame your rebuttal. If you can't frame your rebuttal with the definition we are using then you lost the debate.

"I don't think Israel is totally blamless" - well that is good .. because Israel is totally to blame .. someone put it nicely - when you treat people like animals .. don't be surprised when the act accordingly.

Then it only confirms they are animals.

These people in Gaza are in an open air prison .. Israel committing terrorist attacks on a near daily basis over the last few months .. on a regular basis over the last 70 years .. too many to count. They bomb their water treatment .. and power plant .. war crimes o plenty.. targeted assassinations -- killing the target and all the civilians in that local .. taking out an apartment block with 1000 lb bombs .. The latest tactic .. shoot the ankles of protesters ..

As I noted, Israel isn't blameless. This conflict has been going on for decades. There has been progress over time to resolve the issues, and as we see some don't want to compromise.

Gaza is a war crime .. ruled as such countless times by the UN .. and various human rights groups .. Human Rights Watch being one of the notable ones of late.

It's more of a crime scene today than it was a week ago. Who's fault is that? Who is directly to blame for the deaths since Saturday?

The occupied has every right to engage in violence against the Occupier .. these illegal activities - stealing land that doesn't belong to it - warrent a response .. such as the help given to Ukraine .. also engaged in violence against an occupier.. an illegal occupier. .. We should be arming the Palestinians like we did Ukraine .. working with Iran .. would be a good plan .. Put this dog off its leash down .. a dog that happens to have nuclear weapons .. and so should be behaving better..

You sound like an anti-Semite. Do you think the Nazis were right in their Final Solution?

If Palestinians and Iran get their way what do you think will happen to the Jews?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm trying to imagine the discussions that occurred in Hamas HQ as they were planning this attack...

What goals did they have in mind?

Here's one of my theories, but I'd like to hear other theories, so maybe post your theory before hitting the spoiler button?

Spoiler: Hamas' goals

I think maybe Islamic martyrdom might have been one of the motivators?

Motives aside, I'm curious what Hamas hoped to achieve strategically by this attack, or what results they were expecting other than swift reprisal.

Hamas would expect an Israeli over-reaction that
abuses & kills many civilians. This is happening.
Hamas might seek for the purpose of painting
Israel as murderous thugs, thereby turning some
of the world against them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas refuses to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and has repeatedly murdered Israelis, over the years.

If the thread is to be only about demonizing Hamas,
then posters will miss the utility of understanding
what provokes them. Dismissing it as fundamentalism
ignores an issue that could be addressed to reduce
hostilities, ie, Israel's continued oppression of
Palestinians, & its deadly foreign adventurism.
Both sides must change, if positive change is ever
to happen. But Israel is in the driver's seat, with
far far more power. Will they use it for good or evil?

 

[F1fan]

I read that Netanyahu is warning the population to leave - but Israel and Egypt have closed all the exits! I have a nasty feeling retributive action may get ahead of what cool heads would advise and lead to Netanyahu - and Israel- falling into one of the various elephant traps. The fact he has aligned himself with various unsavoury (and arguably mad) far-right factions may limit his scope for manoeuvre and make this more likely.

Terrorism tends to result in revenge, so I can't see the situation improve if Israel cuts off all utilities to Gaza. I think it's fair to say that most of these conflicts come from hardliners, and the citizens pay the price. Israel is divided politically and the result was less commitment to defense. I think a ground invasion is inevitable, and the violence will escalate, and we will see many citizens killed, and likely the hostages.

 

[exchemist]

Terrorism tends to result in revenge, so I can't see the situation improve if Israel cuts off all utilities to Gaza. I think it's fair to say that most of these conflicts come from hardliners, and the citizens pay the price. Israel is divided politically and the result was less commitment to defense. I think a ground invasion is inevitable, and the violence will escalate, and we will see many citizens killed, and likely the hostages.

What Britain found in N Ireland is you need a twin track approach: hard as nails with the terrorism, but also back-channels to offer a route to resolving hot button issues, granting some respect to the politicians behind them and an eventual role in government. And you have to be very careful not to let civilians suffer too much in the process of dealing with the terrorism, so as not to keep on reinforcing the community resentments.

Hard to see now how that can start in this situation admittedly, but I feel sure that avoiding the meting out of collective punishments, such as cutting off the water supply to the population, would be wise.

 

[F1fan]

What Britain found in N Ireland is you need a twin track approach: hard as nails with the terrorism, but also back-channels to offer a route to resolving hot button issues, granting some respect to the politicians behind them and an eventual role in government. And you have to be very careful not to let civilians suffer too much in the process of dealing with the terrorism, so as not to keep on reinforcing the community resentments.

Hard to see now how that can start in this situation admittedly, but I feel sure that avoiding the meting out of collective punishments, such as cutting off the water supply to the population, would be wise.

I don't see any Arafat type leader in Hamas being able to negotiate a deal. If Hamas is as extreme as ISIS and the Taliban then they will resist any compromise with Israel and the West.

 

[exchemist]

I don't see any Arafat type leader in Hamas being able to negotiate a deal. If Hamas is as extreme as ISIS and the Taliban then they will resist any compromise with Israel and the West.

Good point. Perhaps one objective then would be to kill off the current leadership in the hope that someone with a bit more vision might take their place. Possibly this is where Shin Bet may be able to find out who the rising stars are, so that they are NOT killed. .