Was Jesus Real?

[Windwalker]

What we have here is not a mythical character being historicized but a historical person subsequently being deified, which also occurred in the case of Gautama Buddha and other personalities from history, including the Roman Emperor Augustus.

There was this PBS special I saw many years ago which the title of it wonderfully captured just this. It was called "From Jesus to Christ". From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS It starts with a historic person, who over generations become deified. I'm inspired to watch all four parts of it again now.

For Buddhism, we have evidence that the early Mahāsāṃghika school (which split from the Sthaviras - from whom the Therevadins trace their lineage - at the Second Buddhost Council) believed the historical Buddha possessed a transcendental, supramundane nature, although even the Sthavira vinaya attributed miracles to him.

And this is what led to the creation of the doctrine of the Trikaya, or three-bodies doctrine of the Buddha:

Trikaya | Buddhism

Trikaya, (Sanskrit: “three bodies”), in Mahāyāna Buddhism, the concept of the three bodies, or modes of being, of the Buddha: the dharmakaya (body of essence), the unmanifested mode, and the supreme state of absolute knowledge; the sambhogakaya (body of enjoyment), the heavenly mode; and the nirmanakaya (body of transformation), the earthly mode, the Buddha as he appeared on earth or manifested himself in an earthly bodhisattva, an earthly king, a painting, or a natural object, such as a lotus.

The concept of trikaya applies not only to the historical Buddha, Gautama, but to all other buddhas as well.
​

I see this as very much similar to the Trinity doctrine, of Father (dharmakaya), Holy Spirit (sambhogakaya), and Son (nirmanakaya) or incarnation, created in an effort to try to understand how you can have a human person with a Divine nature. What's your opinion of this?

 

[ChristineM]

Jesus had a wonderful story of being perfect and loving. An entire religion was created after him as we all know.

However, was he even real?

View attachment 26577 Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

Is it the same story that symbolically needs to be told or was it an uncreative yet effective mechanism for control?

I am sure jesus existed, i have seen his fathers grave stone.

Whether he existed as depicted in the bible is guesswork. Maybe some is accurate but there is quite a lot to the story that is beyond what is possible.

 

[lukethethird]

As another poster has said, all qualified historians are agreed that there was a Jewish preacher called Jesus of Nasareth, son of Joseph, whose followers believed he was the Messiah. The people who've written books claiming that he was a myth are journalists or crackpots with no academic qualifications

Poisoning the well, a common logical fallacy popular among those on a quest for the historical Jesus.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Poisoning the well, a common logical fallacy popular among those on a quest for the historical Jesus.

No. "Poisoning the well" is a fallacy when you try to discredit a person on one topic by pointing out something discreditable about them that is unrelated. Saying "author X cannot be believed because he's an ex-convict" is poisoning the well; saying "author Y cannot be trusted because he has no qualifications in the subject" is perfectly valid.

 

[lukethethird]

No. "Poisoning the well" is a fallacy when you try to discredit a person on one topic by pointing out something discreditable about them that is unrelated. Saying "author X cannot be believed because he's an ex-convict" is poisoning the well; saying "author Y cannot be trusted because he has no qualifications in the subject" is perfectly valid.

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal logical fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864).[1] The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army, to diminish the attacking army's strength. from wiki

 

[BubbaGumps]

The 'Historical Jesus as Myth' theory is a very recent newcomer on the stage. Almost all Scholars of antiquity and literature during this period believe that there existed an actual historical figure on whom the stories are based. This opinion runs the board from Secular to Religious. Keep in mind that Historians never deal with absolute certainty. It is always possible that the 'Myth' theory regarding Jesus' historicity is true. However, it is not probable. The almost unanimous consensus among both secular and religious scholars is that there actually was a figure we attribute to Jesus. The consensus includes the opinion that this figure was born sometime around the reign of Herod the Great, he was one of the many radical preacher-figures who existed during the time of Roman occupation of Jerusalem; and like most of these figures, he drew too much attention to himself by Roman authorities worried about agitators. Keep in mind that self-styled prophets and those who claimed to be the Messiah were a dime-a-dozen during this period of Roman occupation. Most of these figures were obscure, but some found an audience and drew large crowds. Almost all met the same fate over time. We just never hear about them because they never captured the imagination of the public. Historians believe Jesus was one of those and, like most of the others, met his fate at the hands of Roman authorities. It was a very dangerous proposition to be someone who drew too much attention to themselves. If not for the fact that Christianity took hold, Jesus' life would have otherwise not been seen as noteworthy or remarkable. Occupied territories were littered with the corpses of self-styled prophets and messiahs. Historians believe he was just at the right place and at the right time of social upheaval for a community to form after his rather commonplace execution for insurrection and elevate him to a divine figure. Everything else regarding Jesus' actions and history is debatable.

 

[1213]

...Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

I think there is no identical stories. The one who made the claims in your image has probably really never read the Bible, so ignorant that it gives almost headache.

Actually, Jesus had more than 12 disciples according to the Bible, and Bible doesn’t say he was born 25 th day. But even if those few points would be the same, I think there is major difference in what they taught.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think that with this argument we need to be open to the fact that in the past many beliefs were handed down orally and eventually recorded on paper. This does not mean the event did not take place even though it was written and recorded well afterwards.

Oral tradition - Wikipedia

But as noted oral traditions can be inaccurate so is there a foolproof way or system by which we can verify the truth or falsehood of any tradition.

I believe there is and this is how I believe it works.

I believe in an all knowing God. And that from age to age He sends us Teachers, Messengers or Prophets to verify truth to us. These Beings always confirm the truth of past traditions and clarify whether the common view held is correct or not.

So for example, Muhammad in the Quran confirmed that the Torah and Gospels were truth but also clarified that the belief in the trinity was a misconception. Other Manifestations that appeared after Him confirmed the truth of Buddha, Zoroaster and Krishna but clarified which oral traditions were correct even stating that Buddha did teach about God but that the teaching was lost and the oral traditions which excluded God were incorrect.

So it is my humble opinion that we can sort out all these discrepancies through turning to God’s Manifestations as They appear.

 

[lukethethird]

The 'Historical Jesus as Myth' theory is a very recent newcomer on the stage. Almost all Scholars of antiquity and literature during this period believe that there existed an actual historical figure on whom the stories are based. This opinion runs the board from Secular to Religious. Keep in mind that Historians never deal with absolute certainty. It is always possible that the 'Myth' theory regarding Jesus' historicity is true. However, it is not probable. The almost unanimous consensus among both secular and religious scholars is that there actually was a figure we attribute to Jesus. The consensus includes the opinion that this figure was born sometime around the reign of Herod the Great, he was one of the many radical preacher-figures who existed during the time of Roman occupation of Jerusalem; and like most of these figures, he drew too much attention to himself by Roman authorities worried about agitators. Keep in mind that self-styled prophets and those who claimed to be the Messiah were a dime-a-dozen during this period of Roman occupation. Most of these figures were obscure, but some found an audience and drew large crowds. Almost all met the same fate over time. We just never hear about them because they never captured the imagination of the public. Historians believe Jesus was one of those and, like most of the others, met his fate at the hands of Roman authorities. It was a very dangerous proposition to be someone who drew too much attention to themselves. If not for the fact that Christianity took hold, Jesus' life would have otherwise not been seen as noteworthy or remarkable. Occupied territories were littered with the corpses of self-styled prophets and messiahs. Historians believe he was just at the right place and at the right time of social upheaval for a community to form after his rather commonplace execution for insurrection and elevate him to a divine figure. Everything else regarding Jesus' actions and history is debatable.

Sounds like that was coming from The Bible. No one was known to write about Jesus while he supposedly lived, we don't have any history on him so we don't know if he was historical. We can read our Bibles and believe but we can see where that gets us.

 

[BubbaGumps]

Sounds like that was coming from The Bible. No one was known to write about Jesus while he supposedly lived, we don't have any history on him so we don't know if he was historical. We can read our Bibles and believe but we can see where that gets us.

It depends on what you mean by write about--lots of people wrote about a figure named Jesus- after he died. Just because the claims made are mythical does not mean the person did not exist..Things people wrote about Apollonius are certainly myth but that does not mean the figure of Apollonius did not live. Most of the information comes from Philostratus and almost all of it is certainly mythology. We have no history on Apollonius either, other than Philostratus and what people wrote decades after he died. But nobody doubts that there was not a historical figure named Apollonius who lived and is the subject of the mythology. Claiming that neither of these figures existed is quite a stretch. And outside of monarchs or rulers, very few people in history get written about until after their death.

 

[Dell]

The 'Historical Jesus as Myth' theory is a very recent newcomer on the stage. Almost all Scholars of antiquity and literature during this period believe that there existed an actual historical figure on whom the stories are based. This opinion runs the board from Secular to Religious. Keep in mind that Historians never deal with absolute certainty. It is always possible that the 'Myth' theory regarding Jesus' historicity is true. However, it is not probable. The almost unanimous consensus among both secular and religious scholars is that there actually was a figure we attribute to Jesus. The consensus includes the opinion that this figure was born sometime around the reign of Herod the Great, he was one of the many radical preacher-figures who existed during the time of Roman occupation of Jerusalem; and like most of these figures, he drew too much attention to himself by Roman authorities worried about agitators. Keep in mind that self-styled prophets and those who claimed to be the Messiah were a dime-a-dozen during this period of Roman occupation. Most of these figures were obscure, but some found an audience and drew large crowds. Almost all met the same fate over time. We just never hear about them because they never captured the imagination of the public. Historians believe Jesus was one of those and, like most of the others, met his fate at the hands of Roman authorities. It was a very dangerous proposition to be someone who drew too much attention to themselves. If not for the fact that Christianity took hold, Jesus' life would have otherwise not been seen as noteworthy or remarkable. Occupied territories were littered with the corpses of self-styled prophets and messiahs. Historians believe he was just at the right place and at the right time of social upheaval for a community to form after his rather commonplace execution for insurrection and elevate him to a divine figure. Everything else regarding Jesus' actions and history is debatable.

Agreed... remove miracles and prophecy from the Gospels, mixed with the Jewish apocalyptic sects of the day, and the cruelty of Romans under Pontius Pilate, that is obviously more a realistic view. Jesus body was probably never seen again after his mutilated body was buried. History of crusafiction for treason (i.e. written above him king of the Jews) wasn't as usually nice as the Gospels account. Hopefully for him and his families sake his body was taken down for the passover as the gospels say and not left to rot as normally done.

 

[lukethethird]

It depends on what you mean by write about--lots of people wrote about a figure named Jesus- after he died. Just because the claims made are mythical does not mean the person did not exist..Things people wrote about Apollonian are certainly myth but that does not mean the figure of Apollonius did not live. Most of the information comes from Philostratus and almost all of it is certainly mythology. We have no history on Apollonius either, other than Philostratus and what people wrote decades after he died. But nobody doubts that there was not a historical figure named Apollonius who lived and is the subject of the mythology. Claiming that neither of these figures existed is quite a stretch. And outside of monarchs or rulers, very few people in history get written about until after their death.

Whether Apollonius is historical or not is determined on its own merits.

 

[lukethethird]

Agreed... remove miracles and prophecy from the Gospels, mixed with the Jewish apocalyptic sects of the day, and the cruelty of Romans under Pontius Pilate, that is obviously more a realistic view. Jesus body was probably never seen again after his mutilated body was buried. History of crusafiction for treason (i.e. written above him king of the Jews) wasn't as usually nice as the Gospels account. Hopefully for him and his families sake his body was taken down for the passover as the gospels say and not left to rot as normally done.

Maybe you are just trying to justify your belief in this story that comes from your Bible. What necessitates an historical figure besides special pleading?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Jesus had a wonderful story of being perfect and loving. An entire religion was created after him as we all know.

However, was he even real?

View attachment 26577 Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

Is it the same story that symbolically needs to be told or was it an uncreative yet effective mechanism for control?

I think Jesus was a Roman invention.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus had a wonderful story of being perfect and loving. An entire religion was created after him as we all know.

However, was he even real?

View attachment 26577 Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

Is it the same story that symbolically needs to be told or was it an uncreative yet effective mechanism for control?

All other things aside, you probably do know that there is no biblical mention of Jesus being born on December 25th. Perhaps someone else answered this point.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Jesus had a wonderful story of being perfect and loving. An entire religion was created after him as we all know.

However, was he even real?

View attachment 26577 Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

Is it the same story that symbolically needs to be told or was it an uncreative yet effective mechanism for control?

This query arrives at every Christian forum sooner or later.
Yes, Yeshua, actually known as Yeshua bin Joseph, Joshua son of Joseph, did exist.
This video, I love this video, was produced long ago to refute what you've heard as rumor that JC was not real. And it is a fun video too.

 

[YoursTrue]

I am sure jesus existed, i have seen his fathers grave stone.

Whether he existed as depicted in the bible is guesswork. Maybe some is accurate but there is quite a lot to the story that is beyond what is possible.

Two things. When you say there is quite a lot to the story that is impossible,do you mean it did not happen? And where is his father's grave?

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

He're's a ?

If there is, IS,a god/dess, would it serve "It" to keep you a slave to, "No! Such thing"?

Or, would U be liberated.
As possible?
Think? " I M ,,,,Upset" Being IS everything.

 

[GoldenThread]

Jesus had a wonderful story of being perfect and loving. An entire religion was created after him as we all know.

However, was he even real?

View attachment 26577 Why is there so many other stories identical to his before him?

Is it the same story that symbolically needs to be told or was it an uncreative yet effective mechanism for control?

John 7:17," If any man will do His (God's) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

If you want to know if Jesus is real or a copy, then follow His commands He taught during His 3 1/2 year ministry. This is the challenge Jesus gives to anyone that wants to know whether or not he is from God.

In peace

 

[ChristineM]

Two things. When you say there is quite a lot to the story that is impossible,do you mean it did not happen? And where is his father's grave?

I said impossible, so could not happen is closer.

Gravestone, not grave. Its in Bad Kreuznach Germany.