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Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Was Jesus crucified?


  • Total voters
    54

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Its good to hear from one who has been both Muslim and Christian. I think where it matters most is the question about the reliability of the Gospel and Quranic accounts which many followers of these respective books regard as being literally true and the unerring word of God. OTOH I agree living in a manner that is pleasing to God is far more important.

Curiously, the Qur'anic account of Jesus has nothing to say about him being baptised by John (it doesn't have a concept of baptismal theology to begin with, so I guess that's understandable), makes no mention of his causing a disturbance in the temple and under traditional Islamic exegesis claims the crucifixion did not take place.

In other words, the three aspects of his life that secular scholars consider practically incontestable, are not Qur'anic.

Instead, the Qur'an discusses at length his miraculous birth (which a number scholars regard as a pious legend from the later first century, given that Paul and Mark seem to be unaware of it, despite its importance to subsequent Christians and Muslims), his wonder-working miracles and cures, his reputed foreknowledge or psychic prescience (also alluded to in the four gospels), his ascension and Second Coming.

The Jesus of the Qur'an, Isa in Arabic, is arguably alien to the historical Jesus - certainly more so even than the latest gospel to be written, John (which has a very persuasive passion narrative and description of signs that scholars consider to be derived from sources much earlier than the actual gospel, itself written near the end of the first century). The Qur'an is so distantly removed from the events and clearly indebted to sixth century Christian texts like the Syriac Infancy Gospel, that I think it is better to view Muhammad as using fables - much like Jesus did with his parables - to enunciate spiritual truths, rather than preaching about anything even close to history.
 
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TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Well technically, if you want to go that route, you could call the entire universe collectively "God's son" but it wouldn't really achieve much. No, God does not incarnate in Islam or Judaism.
Actually, if one wanted to get technical, they'd know the entire Universe is God.
God did not incarnate in Islam. Ever.
God did incarnate according to fulfilling the prophesies of Messiah as pertains to the Hebrews and their Bible. The New Testament isn't a new work. It is the continuation of the Old Testament and its prophecies fulfilled as pertains to God and his new covenant with his people.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
There are three aspects of Jesus's life that command virtually universal assent amongst scholars of antiquity: his baptism by John for remission of sin, his riotous disturbance in the Temple during Pesach and his crucifixion under Pontius Pilate on the instigation of the High Priest Caiaphas.

If everything else about Jesus is at least contestable or doubtful, these three facts are not.

The reason these events are accorded such a high degree of historical credibility, quite apart from their unanimous attestation in different traditions including secular sources in the case of the cross, is that they fit what we know about the the social milieu of the time and caused grave embarrassment for the early church, such that New Testament authors endeavoured to gloss over them or make them 'fit' into theological doctrines.

Something important to bear in mind about ancient Roman and Jewish understandings of death:


The condition of human life is chiefly determined by its first and last days, because it is of the greatest importance under what auspices it is begun and with what end it is terminated.’

- Valerius Maximus (Memorable Doings and Sayings (“On Deaths out of the Ordinary”) 9.12 praef. LCL 493, trans. D. R. Shackleton Bailey)

A person’s birth and death were felt to be an indication of his or her true character.

On both accounts, his birth and death, Jesus 'failed' the test - and very badly - of true Roman manhood and heroism: he was born of peasants in Nazareth (a backwater derided even by Judean Jews "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:43)) and died the most ignoble torture-death. Cicero described crucifixion as ‘the greatest punishment of slavery’ (Verr. 2.5), while Josephus labelled it ‘the most pitiable of deaths’ (War 7.203).

Jesus's "true" character, then, in the eyes of Romans would have been as a piteous 'slave' and insurrectionist against the empire, abandoned by even his closest followers and left to endure the mockery of the crowds as he hung there naked and asphyxiated with a mock crown of thorns on his head.

As Professor Helen K. Bond, an expert on this period, has noted:


"Crucifixion was the most shameful, brutal and degrading form of capital punishment known to the ancient world, reserved for slaves, brigands and any who set themselves up against imperial rule. It was intended to be public, to act both as a deterrent to others and to provide spectacle, even entertainment, to onlookers.

It was a form of death in which the caprice and sadism of the executioners was allowed full reign, as they devised ever more gruesome ways to ridicule the condemned. Stripped naked, the victim was humiliated and shamed as he suffered extreme agony, perhaps for several days, until, overcome by suffocation and exhaustion, the merciful end would come.

So offensive was the cross that civilized people preferred not to talk about it, and few Roman writers ever dwelt on any of the details...


There is no getting away from the fact that Mark’s account, particularly in the crucifixion scene, is the very opposite of a “good death”: Jesus dies alone, in agonized torment, with no one to perform even the most basic rites. As Adela Collins puts it, Jesus’ death in Mark is “anguished, human, and realistic.”"​

(see also, J. G. Cook, Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2014).​


It is mendacious in the extreme to imagine that anyone in their right mind would make such a story up while living under the Romans. The gospels were written to 'defend' the legacy of Jesus and defiantly keep his memory alive, in spite of the Roman attempt to silence and discredit him through crucifixion. If I might quote Professor Bond again:


"...Jesus’ crucifixion was an attempt by the rulers of his day to consign not only his body but also his memory to oblivion. In many ways, Mark’s bios can be seen as an act of defiance, a refusal to accept the Roman sentence and an attempt to shape the way in which both his life and death should be remembered.

His work takes the place of a funeral ovation, outlining Jesus’ way of life and pointing to the family of believers who succeed him.

While men of higher class and greater worldly distinction might have had their epitaphs set in stone, Mark provides his hero with a written monument to a truly worthy life. Mark redeems Jesus’ death not by casting it as ‘noble’ or conventionally ‘honourable,’ but by showing that it conforms perfectly to his counter-cultural teaching
..."​

(Bond, H 2018, 'A fitting end? Self-denial and a slave’s death in Mark’s life of Jesus' New Testament Studies)

Given its deeply subversive nature as a symbol of resistance to Roman imperial rule, the 'cross' and the shameful slave death that it represents, was evidently not a literary fiction of the early Christians. It's as historical an event as any from antiquity can be. The early Christians turned an unremitting tragedy into a literary triumph that has gone on to touch the lives of billions and in so doing defied Jesus's Roman executioners, by making his memory eternal.

We know Jesus and his death are historically accurate, because myths don't come baked in with such shoddy realism.
That would be a yes, is that your final answer?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Muslim belief is based on a literal interpretation of the verses in the Quran quoted in the OP. Because Muslims believe the Quran is the unerring word of God, they believe it must be true. There may be a few Hadiths in support too. Interestingly some early Muslim scholars saw the verse metaphorically rather than literally true.

Ja'far ibn Mansur al-Yaman (d. 347 AH/958 CE), Abu Hatim Ahmad ibn Hamdan al-Razi (d. 322 AH/935 CE), Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani (d. 358 AH/971 CE), Mu'ayyad fi'l-Din al-Shirazi (d. 470 AH/1078 CE ) and the group Ikhwan al-Safa also affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted by another man as maintained by many other popular Qur'anic commentators and Tafsir.

In reference to the Quranic quote "We have surely killed Jesus the Christ, son of Mary, the apostle of God", Muslim scholar Mahmoud Ayoub asserts this boast not as the repeating of a historical lie or the perpetuating of a false report, but an example of human arrogance and folly with an attitude of contempt towards God and His messenger(s). Ayoub furthers what modern scholars of Islam interpret regarding the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross.


Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

Interesting. I had to read another source as well:

And [they] said, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear like that to them. Those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition. They certainly did not kill him. God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. Quran 4:157-158 Christian and Islamic view of the man on the cross - IslamiCity

Assume, in brief, Muslims don't agree with the Crucifixion because someone of god cannot die as christians claim he did?

What's the difference between the divinity in christ in both Muslim and Christian when they both say christ cannot die whether he was crucified in body and come back in spirit or raised in both spirit and body?
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Somewhat off topic but both the gospel and Quran agree Jesus was born to a virgin Mary. He was not physically the 'son of god' as the Quran correctly states, but had the messianic designation 'Son of God' as the Gospels clearly relay.

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'
There is a difference between what the Qur'an states concerning Isa, who was a teacher according to Islam and the Qur'an sura. And the fact that Emmanuel, ("Jesus", Yoshua, Yeshua) , was the son of man and the son of God because he was God begat upon a human woman so as to appear in human form. Which allowed him to teach his new covenant.
Scriptures otherwise inform, no one can look upon God and live. This is OT.
God arrived in flesh so as to bring new life to the world.
This is something Islam cannot boast.
There is no salvation path or covenant in Islam.
When a Muslim dies their soul fate is at the discretion of Allah. There is no guarantee of paradise unless Allah wills it for the individual.
However, if a Muslim dies in Jihad, holy war, which is waged in the name and defense of Allah and his will, it is a guaranteed entry ticket to paradise for that dead "martyr" to the faith.
Where that dead martyr is then permitted to enjoy to the fullest all that was otherwise "haram" (forbidden) while they were alive on earth. Living in a body that bore the senses that would allow them to fully enjoy all things Allah forbid.
Dead those things then become‎ ḥalāl, permissible.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Assume, in brief, Muslims don't agree with the Crucifixion because someone of god cannot die as christians claim he did?

If that were in any way true, then Shi'ites would need to explain why God permitted the Imam Husayn to die as a martyr and Muslims as a whole why martyrdom is praised throughout the Qur'an.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Actually, if one wanted to get technical, they'd know the entire Universe is God.
God did not incarnate in Islam. Ever.

Well, in Islam and Judaism the universe emanates from God (which is all-pervading in the universe but transcendent of) but your statement is close enough.
Yes, as I said, God doesn't incarnate, the idea itself is a contradiction to God's unicity.

God did incarnate according to fulfilling the prophesies of Messiah as pertains to the Hebrews and their Bible. The New Testament isn't a new work. It is the continuation of the Old Testament and its prophecies fulfilled as pertains to God and his new covenant with his people.

Yes, this is as I know (most) Christianity to believe.

I'm not a Muslim because I know it isn't a religion. It is a political ideology conceived by Muhammad.

Calling it a Gnostic Mystical Tradition would be far, far more accurate.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If that were in any way true, then Shi'ites would need to explain why God permitted the Imam Husayn to die as a martyr and Muslims as a whole why martyrdom is praised throughout the Qur'an.

I don't know. Why would there be a debate over christ's death/Crucifixion if muslims did not see him in a special place with his god to where (I read) instead rose in both body and spirit?

Edit.

In other words, do muslims think christ is immune to death because of his relationship with god?

Is Imam Husayn persons of god like Muhammad, Jesus, and the OT Prophets? Does he get the same level of respect?
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Is Imam Husayn persons of god like Muhammad, Jesus, and the OT Prophets? Does he get the same level of respect?

Imam Husayn's martyrdom is seen (as a Shia) as archetypal of the suffering and injustice in the world, that tragic night is remembered by us as a wake up call to the compassion and empathy we need to have as humans in this world. The Day of Ashura is every day in this world, it is not specific to Shi'ism. It's an invitation to open our hearts and humble ourselves.
Depends what you mean by "respect", Imam Husayn is not a prophet if that's what you mean but he was a carrier of the gnosis of the Qur'an (aka the role of the twelve Imams)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Vouthon

Sorry. Edited. In other words...

In other words, do muslims think christ is immune to death because of his relationship with god?

That's a good question.

The Qur'an refers to Jesus as "the Spirit of God" and his apparent immunity from death may have something to do with the belief in his Second Coming in Islamic eschatology. Since he is to return and wasn't resurrected from the dead, Muslims (I presume) must think that his body was lifted up by God to miraculously preserve him until the day he must come down again with the Mahdi to defeat Al-Masih ad-Dajjal (the Antichrist).

As such, I reckon it may be for eschatological reasons.
 
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TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Well, in Islam and Judaism the universe emanates from God (which is all-pervading in the universe but transcendent of) but your statement is close enough.
Yes, as I said, God doesn't incarnate, the idea itself is a contradiction to God's unicity.
I know what you said. However, you were wrong as pertains to the Christian truth.
God did incarnate into human flesh as Emmanuel, Hebrew and meaning, "God with us".
Further, there is no contradiction in that fact. Your idea of God negate his immanence and omnipresence. God cannot transcend that which exists of God the creator of it. "It" , being all that is, was, or shall be.



Yes, this is as I know (most) Christianity to believe.
Most, is accurate. There are denominational false teachings within the faith. Those that state Jesus was just a man who was not divine and having been chosen to be a prophet of God.
The two denominations I know that teach this, and ignore the scriptures that correct their grievous error, are known as Anabaptist and Christadelphians.



Calling it a Gnostic Mystical Tradition would be far, far more accurate.
Not for anyone who has studied Islam and its history.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Imam Husayn's martyrdom is seen (as a Shia) as archetypal of the suffering and injustice in the world, that tragic night is remembered by us as a wake up call to the compassion and empathy we need to have as humans in this world. The Day of Ashura is every day in this world, it is not specific to Shi'ism. It's an invitation to open our hearts and humble ourselves.
Depends what you mean by "respect", Imam Husayn is not a prophet if that's what you mean but he was a carrier of the gnosis of the Qur'an (aka the role of the twelve Imams)

Beautifully explained.

Ashura is a very moving and poignant festival of solidarity with the oppressed. The ritualistic mourning associated with it has always reminded me of Catholic practices like the Stations of the Cross while, broadly speaking, it fulfils a similar role in Shi'ism to that of Good Friday in Christianity.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
God does not incarnate in Islam or Judaism.

God did not incarnate in original Christianity either....apostasy caused corrupt humans to adopt that belief (stolen from non-Abrahamic religions.) The God of Abraham does not need to personally pay the ransom for mankind for two reasons....

1) God is immortal and cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.

2) If God came to earth as a human, then he would not be the equivalent of Adam.....who was a creation of God. it would be an overpayment equivalent to paying a kidnapper 100 trillion dollars when he only demanded a million. :shrug:
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
God did not incarnate in original Christianity either....apostasy caused corrupt humans to adopt that belief (stolen from non-Abrahamic religions.) The God of Abraham does not need to personally pay the ransom for mankind.....

Well, that's how I read the Gospels too, he was a prophet teaching monotheism and calling out the 1st century Jewish establishment for their hypocrisy. The trinity was a latter idea but I'm not going to debate that with trinitarians here :tearsofjoy:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Bizarrely, the Qur'anic account of Jesus has nothing to say about him being baptised by John (it doesn't have a concept of baptismal theology to begin with, so I guess that's understandable), makes no mention of his causing a disturbance in the temple and under traditional Islamic exegesis claims the crucifixion did not take place.

In other words, the three aspects of his life that secular scholars consider practically incontestable, are not Qur'anic.

Instead, the Qur'an discusses at length his miraculous birth (which a number scholars regard as a pious legend from the later first century, given that Paul and Mark seem to be unaware of it, despite its importance to Christians and Muslims), his wonder-working miracles and cures, his reputed foreknowledge or psychic prescience (also alluded to in the four gospels), his ascension and Second Coming.

The Jesus of the Qur'an, Isa in Arabic, is arguably alien to the historical Jesus - certainly more so even than the latest gospel to be written, John (which has a very persuasive passion narrative and description of signs that scholars consider to be derived from sources much earlier than the actual gospel, itself written near the end of the first century). The Qur'an is so distantly removed from the events and clearly indebted to sixth century Christian texts like the Syriac Infancy Gospel, that I think it is better to view Muhammad as using fables - much like Jesus did with his parables - to enunciate spiritual truths, rather than preaching about anything even close to history.

The most important aspect here is the Quran affirms the Gospel and Torah as being Revelations from God alongside the Quran. Further it is not enough for a Muslim to follow Muhammad but all the prophets that have gone before with special emphasis on the Moses and Jesus.

We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them . . .(Quran 2:136)

So while many aspects of the gospel story is not mentioned at all we still have the Gospels which the Quran affirms.

Baptism appears unique to Christianity, and it is certainly not necessary for Muslims or Baha'is to be baptised. Its probably another thread and more to explore whether this practice is still necessary and what function it serves.

An argument could be made that the Syriac Infancy Gospel derived its origin from the Quran and not the other way around. Regardless it would be impossible to establish with certainly how one account affected the other if at all.

The key aspect of this discussion is whether its possible to accept both the Quran and Gospels and reconcile their apparently contradictory theologies. Baha'is believe it is. Christians reject Islam. Muslims see the Gospel as corrupted and superseded by the Quran. The low hanging fruit is the crucifixion account in the Quran which can easily be interpreted metaphorically, an appraoch taken by some early Islamic scholars as mentioned in post #15.
 
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