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Was Islam invented by the Catholic Church

CaptainBritain

Active Member
That's quite clever did you make it up yourself? Would you like a pat on the head? Or how about answering the fundamental divide between Islam and Christianity over the most basic of theological premises.

Your "theory" is laughable.

probably the same reason there is huge theological differences between Christianity and Judaism ie Human invention.

Men can tell lies, huge whoppers.

Its not my theory, read the OP.

Yes a pat on the head would be nice.

What it boils down to though is that the claim Mo could only have learnt the contents of the Quran via divine inspiration is false, all the info contained in it he had access to over his life, to adapt as he pleased.

If its true that Mo could not write, then in my mind it increases that chance, if you can write then your note pad is the brain, ive seen it in the Gypsies who live near me, the young ones get school now but the older ones forget very little they hear.

Just nice to have a rational explanation as to how the quran was written.
 

Brendan ben David

Human Being
Of course you don't, but the question presents itself. I must confess that I can't very well imagine a situation of someone believing that Mohammed was a legitimate messenger from God yet not finding a need to follow the Islamic religion. I would love to hear about how is that possible.

a) God's divine providence is complete, therefore God willed and wills everything to be.
b) Islam plays a dominant role in the world narrative and has brought many to monotheism.

So is Islam man-made or divinely given?

The evidence is 50/50, as it is a story of one man (Mohammed).

However, the fact still remains that God willed Islam to exist in the world as He retains full omnipotence. I believe that God "chose" to bring about another religion into the world in order to bring idolaters back to Him.

The other option available for others is that Mohammed made it all up, while God allowed the religion to permeate the world regardless.

Either way, God has allowed (and willed) Islam to exist.

No...but you do have to go back three spaces to that nice little cake shop on Glenhuntly Rd.;)

Enjoy.

Haha, Glick's? :clap2:
 

Bismillah

Submit
I'm going to apply some logic it may help in this situation

probably the same reason there is huge theological differences between Christianity and Judaism ie Human invention.
Backtracking? You are claiming that Islam is "invented" by the Catholic church. If this were remotely true then the basic theological foundations for Catholicism would be present in Islam. In fact this is completely false Islam and Christianity are at theological ends on the religious specter. This very simple fact negates any further points of engagement on this topic.

What it boils down to though is that the claim Mo could only have learnt the contents of the Quran via divine inspiration is false, all the info contained in it he had access to over his life, to adapt as he pleased.
Of course that is an unverifiable claim requiring that you disprove every aspect of the Prophet's life. Furthermore let me point out, since you are having obvious difficulties, that there is no one claiming that Catholocism was revealed directly to the Prophet. There is nothing wrong with the Prophet understanding the concept of Christianity prior to revelation, he was a deeply spiritual man and he explored all outlets which were available to him and rejected them all save one.

I cannot go any further with the theory of "adaptation" when one cannot grasp the fundamental differences between two religions.

The idea that a monk who had less than brief contact with the Prophet as the author of the Qur'an is preposterous. The idea that you think your theory is rational is hilarious. The most basic speaker of Arabic can realize that the Qur'an is the peak of Arabic literature Muslim or not. You need to do a much better job at finding "prospective authors" who at least have a semblance of the markers of a poet, a author, a politician, a statesman, a family man and the countless perspectives that are espoused in the Qur'an.
 

Bismillah

Submit
I find Islam a joke in how they think all powerful allah allowed them evil Jews and Christians to mess up the scriptures, and then waits many many many years to correct them evil Jews and Christians.
Clearly you are of the opinion that God intervenes on a very personal level. I find it a joke then that the various happenings or "the Problem of Evil" are then left unresolved. I don't find Jews and Christians evil if you were knowledgeable you would know that many Christians were highly respected in the Prophets time and regarded as hanifs. Time span is irrelevant what is relevant is that mankind be given the ability to decide for itself the best course of action given the tools at its disposal. At a time where the world had reverted to polytheism that tool was and is Islam and the realignment of tawhid.

The idea that God would leave mankind able to resist the seeds of doubt would be a spectacular reversal on the point of life and merit our own existence as we know it as worthless. We live on the assumption of free will lest we do nothing at all and let apathy define us.
 

CaptainBritain

Active Member
I'm going to apply some logic it may help in this situation

Backtracking? You are claiming that Islam is "invented" by the Catholic church. If this were remotely true then the basic theological foundations for Catholicism would be present in Islam. In fact this is completely false Islam and Christianity are at theological ends on the religious specter. This very simple fact negates any further points of engagement on this topic.

Of course that is an unverifiable claim requiring that you disprove every aspect of the Prophet's life. Furthermore let me point out, since you are having obvious difficulties, that there is no one claiming that Catholocism was revealed directly to the Prophet. There is nothing wrong with the Prophet understanding the concept of Christianity prior to revelation, he was a deeply spiritual man and he explored all outlets which were available to him and rejected them all save one.

I cannot go any further with the theory of "adaptation" when one cannot grasp the fundamental differences between two religions.

The idea that a monk who had less than brief contact with the Prophet as the author of the Qur'an is preposterous. The idea that you think your theory is rational is hilarious. The most basic speaker of Arabic can realize that the Qur'an is the peak of Arabic literature Muslim or not. You need to do a much better job at finding "prospective authors" who at least have a semblance of the markers of a poet, a author, a politician, a statesman, a family man and the countless perspectives that are espoused in the Qur'an.

Put your thinking cap on old son, the fundamental differences between Islam and the Catholic faith have to be there for any kind of enemy status to arise.

If islam was the same as the Catholic faith, it would simply be a thread entitled "how the Arabs converted to Christianity"

Any honest historian will tell you that the oldest known copies of the Quran were found in Yemen and read very differently to the Quran you read today.

So in truth we can have no clear idea of what Mo wrote.
This thread is about the possible pollution of a young boys mind.

Again for you to read THIS IS NOT MY THEORY.

Never once stated that the monk wrote the Quran, if you look back at my posts and find that quote please point it out to me.
 

islam abduallah

Active Member
Put your thinking cap on old son, the fundamental differences between Islam and the Catholic faith have to be there for any kind of enemy status to arise.

If islam was the same as the Catholic faith, it would simply be a thread entitled "how the Arabs converted to Christianity"

Any honest historian will tell you that the oldest known copies of the Quran were found in Yemen and read very differently to the Quran you read today.

So in truth we can have no clear idea of what Mo wrote.
This thread is about the possible pollution of a young boys mind.

Again for you to read THIS IS NOT MY THEORY.

Never once stated that the monk wrote the Quran, if you look back at my posts and find that quote please point it out to me.

as i told about the yemen copy that it's not more than a lie, surly not from you, but from who told you about it
 

CaptainBritain

Active Member
as i told about the yemen copy that it's not more than a lie, surly not from you, but from who told you about it

The fact that the Yemen manuscripts are the oldest in the World is no state secret, it is a readily available fact, google "whats the oldest copy of Quran" a host of information will spring up,

you call me a liar, when you find the results I hope you are man enough to say sorry.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe that God "chose" to bring about another religion into the world in order to bring idolaters back to Him.

The other option available for others is that Mohammed made it all up, while God allowed the religion to permeate the world regardless.

Either way, God has allowed (and willed) Islam to exist.

There are certainly upsides to such a relaxed worldview of religious diversity.

Of course, there are a lot of important questions left unanswered by such an approach. But hey, fair enough.
 

islam abduallah

Active Member
The fact that the Yemen manuscripts are the oldest in the World is no state secret, it is a readily available fact, google "whats the oldest copy of Quran" a host of information will spring up,

you call me a liar, when you find the results I hope you are man enough to say sorry.

don't personalize the subject, ok i don't say you are lier, :shrug:, i said who made that video is the lier ,
here you can find the uthman quran, the oldest copy of the quran
Uthman Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Bismillah

Submit
I am not your "son" don't refer to me as such.
If islam was the same as the Catholic faith, it would simply be a thread entitled "how the Arabs converted to Christianity"
If only I had implicated you in stating that Islam is equivalent to Catholocism. No, what you said was that it was established by Catholocism. That is your premise. If that is true then there should be some basic similarities between the two religions, they don't exist.
Any honest historian will tell you that the oldest known copies of the Quran were found in Yemen and read very differently to the Quran you read today.
Odd the oldest surviving Qur'an is actually in Samarkand. Nice start I suppose next you're going to try and convince me that houris means grapes or other such nonsense.
So in truth we can have no clear idea of what Mo wrote.
In truth what we know of historical narrative all affirm that the Prophet was unlettered he didn't write anything, it is what he said that matters.

This thread is about the possible pollution of a young boys mind.
That you would think that brief contact spanning less than a day would be the means for such a complete cognitive reversal only speaks of the ridiculous nature of the OP

Your theory is pathetic.
 

CaptainBritain

Active Member
I do not dislike you but empty sack is, indeed, a pretty good characterization of some of your positions.


back it up then, this thread is not my position just a theory going about that im putting forward for scrutiny, which is why the thread is framed as a question and not a declaration of fact but you read what you want.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
I've heard a theory that Islam was an (failed) attempt to subdue middle eastern culture/tribes which at least superficially sounds somewhat plausible. That Muhammad was some secret catholic mole is so utterly rubbish you don't even have to think twice about it.
 

bobdobb1088

New Member
...He's possibly a relative of the monk Buhaira(best spelling, means "a little lake" in Arabic), because only a very tiny percentage of Iraqi Christians(Assyrians, Chaldean, and Syriac - all Catholic) are Syriac. The story of Buhaira is well known by Iraqi Catholics, although they don't publicly mention it within earshot of any Muslim, since it is technically punishable by death, according to Sharia law. Respect to Catholic/Christians is given to them by Muslims, by order of the Quran, and even Saddam Hussein's sons went to a Jesuit high school called Baghdad college(which has since been shut down due to suspicion of being a CIA post).
First the facts:
The historical basis that Buhaira existed and had influence on Mohammed is pretty well established by both Muslim scholars and those who hated Muslims.
Mohammed was in the caravan business and for about 20 years ran the route by Buhaira's isolated post(monastary), and they spent time with each other while Mohammed was young and impressionable. Mohammed was illiterate, but Buhaira was very knowledgable and was one of the very few at that time who knew how to write and read Arabic. Arabic at that time was much more difficult to write than the Arabic of today, so only the most educated/smartest people knew it; leaving only nobility and monks to write it, since there were no schools. It was immediately after Mohammed's death that the easier modern Arabic was invented, incorporating "dotting" techniques.
Here's my Syriac friend's take, which makes sense:
Mo's society was one of degenerate barbarism. For example, the commonly drunken Beduins would bury alive some of their infant daughters, to keep them from being taken as sex slaves by other pillaging beduins. Other outside societies then were much more progressive, with better social orders and economies. Mo's exposure to foreign lands through his caravan work, inspired a better future for his people, so Mo was a perfect fit for Buhaira, who saw Mo as the vehicle to start his original idea of religion. My friend speculates Buhaira was rebelious to the fact that the foreign westerner, Constantine, was imposing strict regulations on what could be in the Bible. After much contact with Buhaira, the young Mo then returns one day to his people with many leather scrolls that he says he wrote in Arabic. Mo's answer to people asking how an illiterate kid could write them was of course, "God inspired me". There are two people that Mohammed would have had contact with that could have written the scrolls; the first being his employer, who was a noble, and the other was Buhaira. It's not likely his rich employer would've encouraged the Quran's socialist thinking, or that his employer would randomly be so introspective and concerned with religion, so many people suspect it was Buhaira who had the time, motivation, and ability to write it. In addition, the Quran was written in a very obscure form of poetry, so only an expert linguist would've understand that form of poetry, which also leads many to believe that a monk would've done the job. It doesn't make sense to think any authority in the Catholic Church had any hand in Buhaira or any other monk meeting with and injecting someone with another religion, other than possibly a bit of Christian philosophy making its way to the Quran, filtered and altered through Buhaira's personal philosophies. It was just adequate timing for Mohammed and Buhaira. Buhaira, arguably, was the most likely author of the Quran, but if you say that in Saudi Arabia then you could be beheaded.


-Billster
I'm a loyal Catholic, because Catholicism insists on both Faith and Logic. You can't divorce God from His creation, so I see God's watermark in everything.
 
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