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Was Habbukuk 2:4 mistranslated?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Jonathan Hoffman, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

    Messages:
    395
    Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    Other similar translations are
    Habakkuk 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

    Is this translation accurate? Does it prove Paul was right about faith being the source of righteousness?
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    29,760
    Religion:
    Judaism
    <yawn>
    more tasteless bait ...​
    </yawn>
     
  3. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    Please abide by the rules of conduct of this forum.
     
  4. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    Why don't you just respond to the issue rather than being distractive and insulting?
     
  5. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    Notice how quickly I respond to you (rather than questioning your motives):

    2:4 Look, the one whose desires are not upright will faint from exhaustion, 12
    but the person of integrity 13 will live 14 because of his faithfulness
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    Know for sure that to be elated not esteeming the self ["of his mind" Deut 18:6] blameless. Firmness makes alive.

    I think it means trusting in one's own goodness does not make alive. Steadfastness is what makes alive. "will live" Strong's 2421 "leave"

    ie "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved" NWT Matthew 24:13
    he who stands firm to the end will be saved New International Version (©1984)
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    The Bible translations have the writer talking about two different kinds of people, but it is a warning to one kind of person. The kind of person who trusts in his own righteousness. Trusting in one's own righteousness is not rewarded with life. Being steadfast in this... Young's Literal Translation
    Seek Jehovah, all ye humble of the land, Who His judgment have done, Seek ye righteousness, seek humility, It may be ye are hidden in a day of the anger of Jehovah Zephaniah 2:3

    ....leads to salvation. Yes, Habakkuk 2:4 proves Paul's point imo.
     
  8. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
  9. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

    Messages:
    6,224
    Religion:
    Jewish
    Havakuk 2:4
    &#1492;&#1504;&#1492; &#1506;&#1508;&#1500;&#1492; &#1500;&#1488; &#1497;&#1513;&#1512;&#1492; &#1504;&#1508;&#1513;&#1493; &#1489;&#1493; &#1493;&#1510;&#1491;&#1497;&#1511; &#1489;&#1488;&#1502;&#1493;&#1504;&#1514;&#1493; &#1497;&#1495;&#1497;&#1492;
    Behold, his soul is puffed up within him, and not straightforward; but one who is righteous lives by his faithfulness.

    The translation you cited is a bit opaque and archaic, but seems close enough, to me.

    Rashi tells us that the verb 'uflah ("puffed up" or "swollen") signifies that he is full of anger and uncontrolled desires, which lead him to a life of violence and intemperate abusiveness.

    The Metzudat David (Radbaz, or Rabbi David ben Ibn Zimra, Israel and North Africa, 15th century) helpfully clarifies that the subject of this vision is the personification of Babylonia, and the prophet's vision is about Babylon's fall. Other commentators have also made this clarification, and have offered similar interpretations to Rashi regarding the language used.

    I don't know offhand how Paul used this verse (not being quite so conversant with the Christian scriptures), but in general, Paul decontextualizes Jewish text, stripping it of both original and traditional meanings, and substitutes his own Christological eisegetic readings instead. I would presume this would be no different.
     
  10. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    Paul quoted this verse in Romans 1:17
    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
     
  11. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Something

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    15,714
    Where does "faint from exhaustion" come from I wonder?

    hin·nêh behold
    ‘up·p&#601;·l&#257;h, proud
    l&#333;- not
    y&#257;·š&#601;·r&#257;h right
    nap&#772;·š&#333;w soul
    b&#333;w; ?
    w&#601;·&#7779;ad·dîq righteous
    be·’&#277;·m&#363;·n&#257;·&#7791;&#333;w faithfulness
    yi&#7717;·yeh. will live
     
  13. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Habakkuk+2

    12 tn The meaning of this line is unclear, primarily because of the uncertainty surrounding the second word, &#1506;&#1458;&#1508;&#1468;&#1456;&#1500;&#1464;&#1492;apÿlah). Some read this as an otherwise unattested verb &#1506;&#1464;&#1508;&#1463;&#1500;afal, “swell”) from which are derived nouns meaning “mound” and “hemorrhoid.” This “swelling” is then understood in an abstract sense, “swell with pride.” This would yield a translation, “As for the proud, his desires are not right within him” (cf. NASB “as for the proud one”; NIV “he is puffed up”; NRSV “Look at the proud!”). A multitude of other interpretations of this line, many of which involve emendations of the problematic form, may be found in the commentaries and periodical literature. The present translation assumes an emendation to a Pual form of the verb &#1506;&#1464;&#1500;&#1463;&#1507;alaf, “be faint, exhausted”). (See its use in the Pual in Isa 51:20, and in the Hitpael in Amos 8:13 and Jonah 4:8.) In the antithetical parallelism of the verse, it corresponds to &#1495;&#1464;&#1497;&#1464;&#1492; (khayah, “live”). The phrase &#1500;&#1465;&#1488; &#1497;&#1464;&#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1512;&#1464;&#1492; &#1504;&#1463;&#1508;&#1456;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1465; &#1489;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465; (lo’ yoshrah nafsho bo), literally, “not upright his desire within him,” is taken as a substantival clause that contrasts with &#1510;&#1463;&#1491;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;&#1511; (tsadiq, “the righteous one”) and serves as the subject of the preceding verb. Here &#1504;&#1462;&#1508;&#1462;&#1513;&#1473; (nefesh) is understood in the sense of “desire” (see BDB 660-61 s.v. &#1504;&#1462;&#1508;&#1462;&#1513;&#1473; for a list of passages where the word carries this sense).
    13 tn Or “righteous.” The oppressed individuals mentioned in 1:4 are probably in view here.
    14 tn Or “will be preserved.” In the immediate context this probably refers to physical preservation through both the present oppression and the coming judgment (see Hab 3:16-19).
    15 tn Or “loyalty”; or “integrity.” The Hebrew word &#1488;&#1457;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1504;&#1464;&#1492;emunah) has traditionally been translated “faith,” but the term nowhere else refers to “belief” as such. When used of human character and conduct it carries the notion of “honesty, integrity, reliability, faithfulness.” The antecedent of the suffix has been understood in different ways. It could refer to God’s faithfulness, but in this case one would expect a first person suffix (the original form of the LXX has “my faithfulness” here). Others understand the “vision” to be the antecedent. In this case the reliability of the prophecy is in view. For a statement of this view, see J. J. M. Roberts, Nahum, Habakkuk, and Zephaniah (OTL), 111-12. The present translation assumes that the preceding word “[the person of] integrity” is the antecedent. In this case the Lord is assuring Habakkuk that those who are truly innocent will be preserved through the coming oppression and judgment by their godly lifestyle, for God ultimately rewards this type of conduct. In contrast to these innocent people, those with impure desires (epitomized by the greedy Babylonians; see v. 5) will not be able to withstand God’s judgment (v. 4a).

    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Habakkuk+2
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    Leaven swells bread. Leaven is something the Pharisees have to be avoided.
    "Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

    I think it means pride to know something true (the true vision) will cause a person to cease seeing it to the end.
     
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    I think exhausted is not a bad word to describe what happens to leaven in the bread if it is not cooked in time.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    A bad translation can be misleading. It is assumed the first part of Habakkuk 2:4 is about a proud man who it is implied will not live as his lifestyle is seen as an alternative lifestyle to the man of the second part who will "keep living". So no faithful reader wants to be like the man in part one. But the man in part one is on his way seeking to know the vision. But he has become confident (too proud) of his achievement so far. (Matthew 5:20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven It is a warning about owning confidence because confidence will not lead to life.
     
  17. savagewind

    savagewind Something

    Messages:
    15,714
    Speaking of bad translations I found another one that misleads. It was on face book this morning. And I have to wonder.....


    Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips. Proverbs 14:7

    Stay away from a foolish man HE will not find knowledge on YOUR lips.

    Can I go now?
     
  18. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

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    395
    But this is a thread about Hab 2:4 and you seems to have strayed away.
     
  19. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Well-Known Member

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    8,700
    So when the overwhelming majority of the translations show that the just live by faith, you, in your infinite wisdom and deep understanding of ancient Hebrew, choose a translation that undermines 2,000 years of theology. Does this sum up your position.
     
  20. Jonathan Hoffman

    Jonathan Hoffman Member

    Messages:
    395
    Well, I think most of these mistranslations are the ones that support Xian theology, and this is important to notice.
     
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