Was Habbukuk 2:4 mistranslated?

[Brickjectivity]

Many times I've heard Christians say, "Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic or He is Lord!" What do they base this on?

That phrase was coined by Josh McDowell who wrote several books about the Bible and Jesus before he founded Focus on the Family. He uses this as an argument in several books, the shortest one being More Than a Carpenter.

...On top of that, did Paul use partial quotes to prove his points? Yes he did, and what was his point?

No, those aren't 'Partial quotes'. In Paul's time they didn't have quotation marks or chapter and verse. Paul recited a small memorable pieces of scripture expecting you to be familiar with the original. This was not a hack job but a referral to that location in scripture. This was an acceptable way to make a point, particularly considering the power of the scriptures referred to. Paul would not have expected someone unfamiliar with all of the scriptures he had quoted to be reading his work. It would be ridiculous since nothing he said would make sense to them.

Now what I can say is that many people in modern times read Paul without having a scriptural background and without understanding the way that Paul is alluding to 'Well known' scriptures rather than 'Quoting'. When Jesus alludes to scripture or any NT author alludes to scripture they all use the same method of speaking the most memorable piece of it, fully trusting you to be extremely familiar with the text they are commenting upon. Preachers who do not know this have no excuse and have brought shame upon their profession.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Paul was successful at converting non-Jews, how did Jews take his teachings?

Apparently they were neither for nor against him for quite some time. The large split between Catholics and Jews came around 200 CE. Mainly it happened as a result of meddling by the Roman government which was not fond of Christians at the time. It threatened Christians with execution but not Jews. Probably this was one of many ways the Romans worked to stop Christianity or subvert it. Once the Christians were completely severed from synagogues then the Jews lost familiarity with 'Paul'. They heard about him through pogroms, conversion programs and preaching by uneducated friar Tucks. More recently they hear about Paul through 'Jews for Jesus', Televangelists, missionaries etc. Also internet forums.

 

[sincerly]

Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Other similar translations are
Habakkuk 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Is this translation accurate? Does it prove Paul was right about faith being the source of righteousness?

Hi Jonathan, as much as you would like for Paul to be wrong---he is correct.
Paul isn't saying anything which isn't verified in the Writings of the Prophets.

Joshua and Caleb were "Justified" in their "faith"' obedience to bring a "right report" before the people. The rest of the "spies" and people who "disbelieved" spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness and died there.

Fast forward to Ezekiel 18----A time period during which Habakkuk ,also, prophesied----vs.4-9, "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, ....Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. "

Paul was taught from the OT by Gamaliel and at the close of his "missionary journeys" this was his testimonies. Acts 24:14, "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: "
And Yes, in Gal.1:11-12, Paul acknowledges that those prophetic GOD given writings of the OT was placed in the correct perspective. "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ"/(the long looked for Messiah).

Just as in Ezekiel it is still those who believe the Lord GOD and DO HIS WILL and have Repented who will be saved.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Joshua and Caleb were "Justified" in their "faith"' obedience to bring a "right report" before the people. The rest of the "spies" and people who "disbelieved" spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness and died there.

Are you sure? There are numerous places on the journey where the Israelites start complaining, and this is just one of them. Number 14 has the story, and it says some of the spies spread rumours and got people grumbling again. Numbers 14:27 cites grumbling and complaining as their wickedness. They had grumbled previously about water (Exodus 15:23), about food (Exodus 16:2), and then later that they just didn't enjoy the food (Numbers 11:6)

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerely
Joshua and Caleb were "Justified" in their "faith"' obedience to bring a "right report" before the people. The rest of the "spies" and people who "disbelieved" spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness and died there.

Are you sure? There are numerous places on the journey where the Israelites start complaining, and this is just one of them. Number 14 has the story, and it says some of the spies spread rumours and got people grumbling again. Numbers 14:27 cites grumbling and complaining as their wickedness. They had grumbled previously about water (Exodus 15:23), about food (Exodus 16:2), and then later that they just didn't enjoy the food (Numbers 11:6)

Yes, I am sure. There are/were plenty of examples given in the Scriptures of "complaining"/scoffing/down-right disbelieving. Paul, in 1Cor.10:6, 11, said this, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted....Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. "
Heb.3:15-19 verifies the "disbelief of the people" and their death during the forty years of wandering in the wilderness.

Those who doubt GOD will, also, die in the wilderness of sin/.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Joshua and Caleb were "Justified" in their "faith"' obedience to bring a "right report" before the people.

Disagree with that usage, but it could work I suppose. In English, we have no word 'faithobedience'. This is not a word. 'Commitment' and 'faithfulness' are the closest words we have. The Greek word 'Pistis' has a lot of meanings, just like our English word 'Love' which can mean various things in other languages. Sometimes it will only fit into context as 'Belief', but other times it makes no sense as 'Belief'.

"complaining"/scoffing/down-right disbelieving. Paul, in 1Cor.10:6, 11 Heb.3:15-19 verifies the "disbelief of the people"

Same issue. That is what the whole thread was about. The Greek 'Pistis' isn't always belief or disbelief but can mean 'Faithfulness', so your two references part of the cause for the original question. The only directly quoted NT verse we have to go by with 'Pistis' in it is the one from Habakkuk, and the other NT verses with 'Pistis' all can vary within their context.

 

[sincerly]

Disagree with that usage, but it could work I suppose. In English, we have no word 'faithobedience'. This is not a word. 'Commitment' and 'faithfulness' are the closest words we have. The Greek word 'Pistis' has a lot of meanings, just like our English word 'Love' which can mean various things in other languages. Sometimes it will only fit into context as 'Belief', but other times it makes no sense as 'Belief'.

Yes, when one allows context to render the meaning/usage of a word, then the message is clear. "Pistis" is found 244 times in the scriptures and rendered "faith" 239 times having the meaning of "assurance"--"belief" as in "conviction"/persuasion" and "trust"/"confidence".

The joining of my two words was your doing.

"complaining"/scoffing/down-right disbelieving. Paul, in 1Cor.10:6, 11 Heb.3:15-19 verifies the "disbelief of the people"

Same issue. That is what the whole thread was about. The Greek 'Pistis' isn't always belief or disbelief but can mean 'Faithfulness', so your two references part of the cause for the original question. The only directly quoted NT verse we have to go by with 'Pistis' in it is the one from Habakkuk, and the other NT verses with 'Pistis' all can vary within their context.

However, Brickjectivity, Hab.2:4 uses the Hebrew="emnwnah" (faith) and not " and was used in scriptural writings as "faith, fathfulness, faitful, truth( with the idea of "firmness", "steadfastness".)

So, Yes, I still see the usage of Hab.2:4 by Paul as a"True" rendering/usage of the passage.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, when one allows context to render the meaning/usage of a word, then the message is clear. "Pistis" is found 244 times in the scriptures and rendered "faith" 239 times having the meaning of "assurance"--"belief" as in "conviction"/persuasion" and "trust"/"confidence".

Again, that is a restatement of the problem. In the past the English word 'Faith' had 'Faithfulness' within it. You could say "Keep faith with me, husband." and it would mean faithfulness; but people don't talk that way now. Now 'Belief' is a separate word from 'Faith'. Translating 'Pistis' only as 'Faith' takes away a basic expression, due to the new limitations of modern English. Faithfulness should have an avenue of expression in the NT, but if you strip 'Faithfulness' out of the word 'Pistis' in the Greek, there's no way left to express it. What is the word for faithfulness in Greek Koine? It is Pistis.

The joining of my two words was your doing.

Yes, but I wasn't trying to be mean. Faith and Obedience are both nouns. When you put two nouns together with a space between they look like a pair of boobies, so it is inappropriate. Yes I am kidding. We can start a thread to discuss it if you'd like.

However, Brickjectivity, Hab.2:4 uses the Hebrew="emnwnah" (faith) and not " and was used in scriptural writings as "faith, fathfulness, faitful, truth( with the idea of "firmness", "steadfastness".)

So, Yes, I still see the usage of Hab.2:4 by Paul as a"True" rendering/usage of the passage.

The NIV translates Habakkuk 2:4 as 'Faithfulness'. Here is the blueletterbible concordance entry: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[sincerly]

Again, that is a restatement of the problem. In the past the English word 'Faith' had 'Faithfulness' within it.

Hi brickjectivity, My English Dictionary shows "faith", faithful, and faithfulness" as all being derived from the same root word. But different tense in usage. That is the same as I see with the Hebrew.
Your seem to be trying to build a strawman argument.

Faithfulness should have an avenue of expression in the NT, but if you strip 'Faithfulness' out of the word 'Pistis' in the Greek, there's no way left to express it. What is the word for faithfulness in Greek Koine? It is Pistis.

And one can readily see "faithfulness" in these verses rendered "faith".
Matt.23:23; Gal.5:22; Philemon 5; Titus 2:10 (with Fidelity); and Rom3:3.

Now let's look at those two verses as to the message being conveyed.
(NIV Hab.2:4), "
“See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness— Footnote:
* Or faith


The vision was still a way off in coming to fulfillment but the one/person/soul who refuses to believe GOD is not right with GOD. Has no "faith" in GOD'S messages; has no faithfulness/steadfastness in GOD as GOD.
However, The person who is in a just relationship with GOD will continue in his "faith in GOD and remain in his "faithfulness" to his GOD.

In the NLT of Hab.2:4 this is seen:
"Look at the proud! They trust in themselves, and their lives are crooked. But the righteous will live by their faithfulness to God.*
Footnote:
* Greek version reads If the vision is delayed, wait patiently, / for it will surely come and not delay. / I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away. / But the righteous person will live by my faith. Compare Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11; Heb 10:37-38."

The only semantic problem is of your making.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hi brickjectivity, My English Dictionary shows "faith", faithful, and faithfulness" as all being derived from the same root word. But different tense in usage. That is the same as I see with the Hebrew.
Your seem to be trying to build a strawman argument.

I'm observing reality as I have experienced it among Christians who read the Bible. I, a child, was told that belief not faithfulness was what mattered. In every hotel in the USA a Bible placed by the Gideons exuberantly taught the same thing. Faithfulness was completely lost to my generation, as only belief mattered despite the Bible's emphatic declarations to the contrary. It was as if we were blindfolded lemmings being led to cliffs by other blindfolded lemmings. Why? Because to us 'Faith' means 'Belief', because that is what we are taught it means.

And one can readily see "faithfulness" in these verses rendered "faith".
Matt.23:23; Gal.5:22; Philemon 5; Titus 2:10 (with Fidelity); and Rom3:3.

Yet many do not, and people say 'Faithful' not 'Faith'.

Now let's look at those two verses as to the message being conveyed.
(NIV Hab.2:4), "
“See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness— Footnote:
* Or faith

Really this is over my head, but I still do not think 'Faith' is the appropriate rendering. Since Hebrew was a dead language for a long time, and since we aren't Talmud scholars we had best go by context. We know what 'puffed up', 'upright' and 'righteous' mean. Puffed up is the opposite of humble. Upright means 'does the best thing possible'. The term we are discussing is 'Faith' but really we could discuss any of these terms for days.

Bread symbolizes pride in the Bible wouldn't you agree? Joseph interprets the Baker's dream easily, because in his dream he's got bread in the baskets firmly supported by his neck, stacked upon his head. Pride, aka, the tree of knowledge of good and of evil, the product of the mind, means he's going to die. So much for the Baker with his head held high full of beautiful fresh hot puffy bread! The other man, the Juicer, he gets to live. He presses fresh grapes to make a safe drink using his own hands, and he chucks the seeds and skins. His offenses are overlooked, and the Pharaoh restores him to his original honor.

Counterpart to the story of the Baker and the Juicer is Jesus example of the thief and a very well-behaved man both praying at the same temple. Both stand condemned. The very well behaved man, however, makes a prideful prayer which is rejected. He is like Cain who offered the wrong offering, and he is like the Baker who offered puffy bread to the Pharaoh. The thief is like the cupbearer or juicer, and he is like Abel. Abel offered the sacrifice that was demanded rather than what he determined would be best; so he was better than Cain because of his humble faithfulness. Cain had faith, but his offering was rejected anyway. Both the thief and the very good man had belief, but only one of them was humble.

The vision was still a way off in coming to fulfillment but the one/person/soul who refuses to believe GOD is not right with GOD. Has no "faith" in GOD'S messages; has no faithfulness/steadfastness in GOD as GOD.
However, The person who is in a just relationship with GOD will continue in his "faith in GOD and remain in his "faithfulness" to his GOD.

The Jews have a vision which involves waiting patiently for the LORD, somewhat like in the story of Jericho where Joshua has to go around the city until he is finally told he may stop. The vision was a long way off in that situation as well, but Joshua had to keep going day by day. He did it faithfully, however; as he had learned in the wilds that man lives by every word the comes from the mouth of God. If Joshua received no word to stop, he would never have stopped circling Jericho. He should still be circling it now faithfully.

Our tendency as people is not to wait. We aren't patient, and we get ideas and plans to do things our own way. Adam is the prime example. He's in the garden, knows what to do, believes in God; but he decides for himself what he's going to do. His pride gets him kicked out of the garden. All he had to do was think to himself "I'm just not sure. I'll wait and ask what to do," but the serpent told him the fruit would make him wise enough to make his own decisions. He preferred that to obedience.

Somewhere in all of this lies the true meaning for the trait we are discussing.

 

[Jonathan Hoffman]

Hi All,
If you read the Habbukuk Pesher, you will see that the Qumran Community believed that they must be faithful (or obedient) to the Righteous Teacher. (By the way, believing in someone implies one believes in his teaching.)

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hi All,
If you read the Habbukuk Pesher, you will see that the Qumran Community believed that they must be faithful (or obedient) to the Righteous Teacher. (By the way, believing in someone implies one believes in his teaching.)

That is interesting and I really appreciate the link, although the internet page comments (not the Pesher but the internet page comments upon the Pesher) revile me.

I followed the link you provided, and the page comments say something dodgy. (By the way the Qumran only has part of Hebrews 2:4) The Pesher is not at all clear to the person making the comments on the internet web page at the link. The web link (see here) says "the Pesher ascribes personhood to the "Righteous" speaking of those "who place their faith in the "Righteous Teacher...." blah blah "Messiah." Oh, no he did not say 'Messiah'! The Righteous Teacher mentioned is probably the Torah's 'Person', as a reference to a Messiah should have specifically said 'Messiah'. I want to say to this person "'Righteous Teacher not same as Messiah hello?" To put Messiah into the Pesher's mouth sounds spurious. If there is some reason to think its Messiah, this particular Pesher bit doesn't give it away.

The internet comments say the Righteous One must be a reference to 'The Messiah', but they don't back this up with reason or experience! That the Pesher ascribes Personhood to the 'Righteous One' does not suggest a Messiah. It is a likely reference to Torah, and also the absence of the word 'Messiah' ought to be sufficient to assume Messiah is absent from the Pesher mind. The Torah, not a messiah, was paraded about in the Ark of the Covenant everywhere that Israel went in the desert, and it was the Torah to which Moses had to appeal his every decision, not a messiah. Messiahs have faults. That is why, specifically, they are not called 'Righteous teacher'. Its why they have to be anointed with oil. A righteous teacher needs no anointing and is by definition therefore not a messiah.

We again must find the meaning by context for 'Faith' and 'Faithfulness' without the Pesher's help or the internet page's comments upon the Pesher's comments.

 

[sincerly]

Hi All,
If you read the Habbukuk Pesher, you will see that the Qumran Community believed that they must be faithful (or obedient) to the Righteous Teacher. (By the way, believing in someone implies one believes in his teaching.)

Hi Jonathan, the beliefs of that "community" are pieced together from fragments of written material. And the "pesher"/interpretation of "two levels" isn't what the Prophets were sent to teach. The Prophets had ONE MESSAGE from the LORD GOD for all persons.
In the writings of the Prophets, it was messages of warnings/ reproof to return to a correct relationship or to show future events/happenings which would surely come to pass.

Habakkuk was written about 100 years prior to the Babylonian captivity. The vision to him(and the faithful people) was one of continuing to Believe in the CREATOR GOD and that would justify their continuing to live.(even under captivity conditions--which had they been "Faithful" would not have occurred.)
Jesus used the same principle in speaking to Nicodemus ----those who believe in THE sacrifice of the SON "shall not Perish".(John3:16)

 

[sincerly]

We again must find the meaning by context for 'Faith' and 'Faithfulness' without the Pesher's help or the internet page's comments upon the Pesher's comments.

One only has to examine the Scriptures because the Creator GOD laid out that which HE wanted HIS Created Being to know and order their lives in accordance to said stipulations.

 

[Brickjectivity]

One only has to examine the Scriptures because the Creator GOD laid out that which HE wanted HIS Created Being to know and order their lives in accordance to said stipulations

I've been around for a while, and I really don't think that it is that way. Let me use an illustration. The Bible contains many scriptures, and the most important ones are the 10 commandments, written by the finger of God. Humankind was formed by God's two hands, so we are more important than the scriptures as ten fingers were used on humanity but only one was used to write the commandments. (I am illustrating not inferring). Paul once said that sometimes people do the right things just by living according to their conscience, and that is true I think. I also think that even if you had perfectly memorized all good scripture but had no conscience the scripture would not be able to install you with one. There is intuition sometimes, too. No one told Peter, for example, who Jesus was yet he knew. He did not get the information by examining scriptures.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerely
One only has to examine the Scriptures because the Creator GOD laid out that which HE wanted HIS Created Being to know and order their lives in accordance to said stipulations

I've been around for a while, and I really don't think that it is that way. Let me use an illustration. The Bible contains many scriptures, and the most important ones are the 10 commandments, written by the finger of God. Humankind was formed by God's two hands, so we are more important than the scriptures as ten fingers were used on humanity but only one was used to write the commandments. (I am illustrating not inferring). Paul once said that sometimes people do the right things just by living according to their conscience, and that is true I think. I also think that even if you had perfectly memorized all good scripture but had no conscience the scripture would not be able to install you with one. There is intuition sometimes, too. No one told Peter, for example, who Jesus was yet he knew. He did not get the information by examining scriptures.

Hi BJ, I, too, have been around for awhile, but that can mean one is "set in their ways"---rather than open to the instructions given by the ONE who did the Creating and instructing.(As the Scriptures state.)
To use your example, Yes, GOD did write the Decalogue upon those tablets of stone. Yes, GOD did form mankind from the dust of the earth which God had made. Yes, GOD did give instructions to HIS formed living Beings. Yes, Adam and Eve did have a conscience(as seen---after the fact of disobedience--hid themselves.)
Eve had intuition as well--She went further than GOD in stating to the serpent--don't even touch it.

Scripture and Peter: John 1:40-41, "One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
John the baptist was teaching from the Scriptures----which taught concerning the Messiah/Christ. Peter couldn't deny later that which he knew from the Scriptures and what he had witnessed in his association with Jesus. John 6:68-69, "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."