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Was Christ Divine?

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
In Mark 12:28-30 Jesus himself says the Lord is one, and this is the exact same commandment Moses had told his people. If Jesus was God why would he not say it and then also explain the trinity.

Also in John 5:30 Jesus says he cannot do anything on his own which is similar to Acts 2:22 where Peter tells the people that God is allowing Jesus to the miracles and that he is a man approved of God.

And also regarding Acts 3:26, certain versions of the bible refer to Jesus as servant and not son. The exact version I looked at was the New International Version: "When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways".

On the first page I posted a good bit of verses of Jesus sayibng he and the Father are one. He even refers to himself as I AM.

Even in the Gospel of John (17:3), Jesus is praying to the Father and he says "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He refers to the Father as the only true God, which contradicts Jesus being God.
:facepalm: Again you take it out of context. Did you ignore the verses before the 3 and the verses after?!?!?!

[1] These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. [2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. [3] Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [4] I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [5] And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.


This reinforces the same thing I told you a few post ago. That Jesus came to do the Fathers will.
 

On_a_Quest

Member

Even early Church fathers admit that there are numerous problems in keeping the scriptures consistent. Scribes would sometimes feel the need to change wordings or make additions or deletions to the text. Sometimes they made mistakes as well. One prominent early Christian theologian and scholar, Origen Adamantius (184-253 AD) observed that there were great differences between different manuscripts of the same scriptures. In his writings, he also accused copyists of being neglectful in their work and of purposely making additions and deletions to the texts.

Celcus, a 2nd century opponent of early Christianity commented that Christian copyists altered the original Gospels to make it easier for them to face criticism of Christianity.

The Bible itself recognizes that there are issues with copyists changing passages and wording. In Revelation 22:18-19 it says:
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Changing scriptures happened in the early centuries. There's nothing we can do to change that and there is little we can do to figure out what the original words of the Bible were. This is putting aside the fact that the Gospels were written way after the death of Jesus and some parts of the Bible, like the letters from Paul, were written by people who never even met Jesus. How would Paul know whether or not Jesus was divine if he never met the guy?

Here's a specific example for you of a passage in the Bible that was deliberately changed to make one Christian's view point look like the correct one. In 1 John 5:7-8 it explicitly deliniates the Trinity:


7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

When Erasmus took on the project of compiling Greek manuscripts that he had into a new copy of the Greek New Testament, he left out these two verses because they were not in ANY of the old Greek manuscripts that he had found in any libraries. The Church was not happy with this because the two verses were in the traditional Latin Vulgate and they are fundamental to Church belief. So they produced a Greek manuscript by translating the Latin Vulgate into Greek, gave it to Erasmus telling him is was a legitimate Greek manuscript. Thus, he copied it into his Greek New Testament, which was later the basis of the translation for the King James Bible.

Who knows how these two verses got into the Latin Vulgate in the first place? Perhaps some scribe didn't feel that the explanation of the Trinity was explicit enough and decided to add them in to help people out. It was not in any of the oldest manuscripts accessible by Erasmus so it must have been added later. When Erasmus put it in, the error was just perpetuated. Now the Church can turn around and point to those lines as justification for the Trinity.

I can give other examples if you like.

This is why I don't think that the Bible is a trustworthy source to answer questions like "Is Jesus Divine?" Perhaps it is the only source we have, but it will not explicitly and accurately answer the question. It is contradictary and unreliable.
As of right now, I do not believe that Jesus was divine. I think he had enough faith in God to be able to perform miracles on his behalf. I think he was a wise teacher. I think he is an excellent example of an upright and moral human being. Neither of those things indicate to me that he was divine.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member

Nobody needs to prove anything in the comparative religion forum, it's not a debate forum.

Please everyone read the sticky on this forum.

Just state your position, for comparison to other positions.
 

Many Sages One Truth

Active Member
Just curious of what Abdul would make of the following from the gospels:

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
From the other thread with the same topic, I posted quite few verses that we as Catholics believe:

Well, let's see it from the Bible through the teachings of the Church:
Jn 8:58 Jesus said to them (Jews)... "Before Abraham came to be, I AM"
Jn 13:19 "From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM."

In connection with this text, we can read in the Old testament particularly from the book of Exodus 3:14-17, Moses asked God, "If they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them? God replied, "I am who am". See the way how Jesus "introduced" himself in the New Testament? It is exactly how the Father want himself to be known. If Jesus is just human, then he won't do that because that could mean blasphemy.

Now, there are a lot of verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is God:

Jn 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the Word was God.. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us"
* Unless we know other word who was made flesh and walked here on earth aside from Jesus, then we can't deny what St. John said.

Rom 9:5 Theirs the patriarchs and from them according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed.
* Jesus is the Messiah (the very basic teaching of the Christian faith). Paul continued on that verse by saying "God who is over all be blessed".

1 Jn 5:20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God."

Jd 25 To the only God our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be the Glory, majesty, power and authority from the ages past, now and for ages to come. Amen.

2Pt 1:1 Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning the part in the Bible where Jesus said "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me", he was just citing Psalm 22.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Just curious of what Abdul would make of the following from the gospels:

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Many scholars (almost all) think the ending of John went through a series of alterations and additions, John 20:28 especially included. Tatian discluded this affair from the Diatesseron, and it completely clashes with the ending of Matthew, which has the Disciples meeting Yashua on a mountain, and somewhat with the ending of Luke. Chapter 21 is a clear "epilogue" addition, and the "Doubting Thomas" story also assumes that Thomas was not present to have the Holy Spirit breathed on him either.

The acclaimed Bernard Muller from Historical-Jesus.info believes it originally ended at 20:10. It's a bit more difficult to disprove to the Trinitarian than say 1 John 5:7 though.
 

Many Sages One Truth

Active Member
Many scholars (almost all) think the ending of John went through a series of alterations and additions, John 20:28 especially included. Tatian discluded this affair from the Diatesseron, and it completely clashes with the ending of Matthew, which has the Disciples meeting Yashua on a mountain, and somewhat with the ending of Luke. Chapter 21 is a clear "epilogue" addition, and the "Doubting Thomas" story also assumes that Thomas was not present to have the Holy Spirit breathed on him either.

The acclaimed Bernard Muller from Historical-Jesus.info believes it originally ended at 20:10. It's a bit more difficult to disprove to the Trinitarian than say 1 John 5:7 though.


Is there any evidence that the end of John went through serious alterations and additions, or is that just an opinion? Like is there an older manuscript to compare the current John to, such as the Codex Sinaiticus?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Is there any evidence that the end of John went through serious alterations and additions, or is that just an opinion? Like is there an older manuscript to compare the current John to, such as the Codex Sinaiticus?

Besides the fact that the ending clashes with Luke and Matthew, it is lacking in Tatian's Diatesseron, which should technically be as good of early manuscript evidence as anything else, even if its not in gospel form.
 
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abdulbasith

Member
And the trinity is a revealed thing. No where in teh OT did Jesus make his apperance. Not until the NT.

But an interesting note would be, in the OT the plural word 'Elohim" is used to talk about God.


[1] These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. [2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. [3] Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [4] I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [5] And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.


This reinforces the same thing I told you a few post ago. That Jesus came to do the Fathers will.

The OT repeatedly says Yahweh is the only true God because Jesus hadn't made his appearance, but in the verse you highlighted Jesus says "with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee". If Jesus was with the Father before the world was then why would the OT repeatedly say Yahweh is the only true God and not talk about the trinity.
In Mark 12:28-30, when Jesus is asked which is the most important commandment, he replies "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one". Why would he say "our" which implies his God too, if he himself is God. And why no mention of the trinity at all?
Also regarding "Elohim", this is a plural of respect not number, in hebrew there is the plural of numbers and plural of respect. The same in arabic, Allah refers to himself in the quran as "We", but every muslim will tell you that there is only one God.

John 1:1, the greek for the word "God" here is debated upon since the original greek actually translates into "god" with a small "g". Similar translation problems are found in more verses, so I think that is an issue to be clarified first.

If Jesus came to fulfill the Father's will then this makes him a prophet not God.

I also agree with the other posts, for example in the Revised Standard Version of the bible a lot verses were removed but then in 1971 these removed verses were put back in and the preface of the bible it was written that these were forced to be put back by certain individuals and church denominations.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain the concept of Jesus being man and God. I've been reading the bible and its more like Jesus was man at times and, you can say, God at times. Its not like he posses both these qualities at once but at different times. For example in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 5, verses 21 onwards, there is the story of Jesus touching the woman to heal her of her bleeding issue. But the woman touches his clothes without him knowing and gets healed. Then in verse 30 he asks "Who touched my clothes?". So in this moment Jesus was all man because God is all knowing and he would have known who touched him and not asked around. So it seems that at times he is all man and at other times this changes so if Jesus was God why would he choose to be man at times and God at times. Can someone explain this please?


Spirit humanizes.....thus we are all divinley human and humanly divine
 

Many Sages One Truth

Active Member
I think what Muslims fail to recognize about Christianity is that Christians do not believe Jesus left his followers without guidance. Christians believe the Apostles were the successors of Jesus, who in turn ordained Bishops, who continue a line of authority called Apostolic Succession. Bishops have the authority of Jesus and the Apostles by majority Christian view.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I believe Christ is Divine, just for the record :). There is plenty of material out there on the subject for anyone truly interested.
 
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