tigger2
Active Member
"Was" and "Beginning" in John 1:1
"in beginning was the word, and the word was with the god, and god was the word." From UBS text.
In an on-line discussion I discussed "was" and "beginning" as used in John 1:1 with a young trinitarian scholar (YTS). She claimed that the author of 'The Johannine Prologue' speaks of the ETERNAL Word, but the only relevant evidence she showed for this that I found was in her interpretation of the words "in the beginning" and "was."
"Beginning" (arkhe or arche, ἀρχῇ) means a certain point in time, and despite all the terminology, verbose speculation, and wishful thinking, it still remains a set point in time. It does not indicate eternal (for which the scripture writers had adequate terms when they wished to use them). "In the beginning" can refer to numerous things, but it never means that thing existed before.
"In the beginning, John was afraid to jump out the airplane door." This has nothing to do with eternity. It is a single point in time when John first attempted to jump from an airplane.
"In the beginning" at John 1:1 may refer to the point in time, before the angels were created. Or more likely, it refers to the point in time when the universe (or the earth) was created. In any case, the Word could have existed for some time prior to that time, but would not necessarily have existed eternally!
Yes, if John had wished to mean 'eternal' he would have said "from eternity the Word was" or its equivalent.
The young trinitarian student (YTS) showed the connection between Proverbs 8 and Wisdom/Word. Proverbs 8:22 is quoted by her as:
"Proverbs 8:22-23 says of Wisdom, 'The Lord created me at the beginning . . . from of old I was poured forth, at first, before the earth was created.' Thus, while, unlike the Word, Wisdom was created, it existed at the beginning before the creation of the world."
But Wisdom here (according to even many trinitarian scholars and most - if not all - early Christian writers of the first 3 centuries) is supposed to be an important element for John's understanding of the Word! So to deny the creation of the Word and accept the creation of the Wisdom of God at the 'beginning' is not reasonable.
Jesus was called the Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24), which we see being created at the beginning in Prov. 8.
Jesus is called the "beginning of God's creation" (Rev. 3:14).
Jesus is called "the Firstborn of Creation" (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" means that there are others "born" or created after him. The firstborn of (not 'over') creation means he was the first to be created by God (the beginning) and then through him came the rest of creation. He is also called the only-begotten son since he was the only creation by God himself personally. This only-begotten one then made (at God's direction) the angels of which he was the firstborn and then the rest of creation.
So, at some point in all eternity, there was a beginning of something (probably the creation of our universe) and at that point the Word already existed. He could have come into existence at that point, but since he made all other created things, he probably was begotten/created some time before so that he could be the master workman through whom God created the universe.
"in beginning was the word, and the word was with the god, and god was the word." From UBS text.
In an on-line discussion I discussed "was" and "beginning" as used in John 1:1 with a young trinitarian scholar (YTS). She claimed that the author of 'The Johannine Prologue' speaks of the ETERNAL Word, but the only relevant evidence she showed for this that I found was in her interpretation of the words "in the beginning" and "was."
"Beginning" (arkhe or arche, ἀρχῇ) means a certain point in time, and despite all the terminology, verbose speculation, and wishful thinking, it still remains a set point in time. It does not indicate eternal (for which the scripture writers had adequate terms when they wished to use them). "In the beginning" can refer to numerous things, but it never means that thing existed before.
"In the beginning, John was afraid to jump out the airplane door." This has nothing to do with eternity. It is a single point in time when John first attempted to jump from an airplane.
"In the beginning" at John 1:1 may refer to the point in time, before the angels were created. Or more likely, it refers to the point in time when the universe (or the earth) was created. In any case, the Word could have existed for some time prior to that time, but would not necessarily have existed eternally!
Yes, if John had wished to mean 'eternal' he would have said "from eternity the Word was" or its equivalent.
The young trinitarian student (YTS) showed the connection between Proverbs 8 and Wisdom/Word. Proverbs 8:22 is quoted by her as:
"Proverbs 8:22-23 says of Wisdom, 'The Lord created me at the beginning . . . from of old I was poured forth, at first, before the earth was created.' Thus, while, unlike the Word, Wisdom was created, it existed at the beginning before the creation of the world."
But Wisdom here (according to even many trinitarian scholars and most - if not all - early Christian writers of the first 3 centuries) is supposed to be an important element for John's understanding of the Word! So to deny the creation of the Word and accept the creation of the Wisdom of God at the 'beginning' is not reasonable.
Jesus was called the Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24), which we see being created at the beginning in Prov. 8.
Jesus is called the "beginning of God's creation" (Rev. 3:14).
Jesus is called "the Firstborn of Creation" (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" means that there are others "born" or created after him. The firstborn of (not 'over') creation means he was the first to be created by God (the beginning) and then through him came the rest of creation. He is also called the only-begotten son since he was the only creation by God himself personally. This only-begotten one then made (at God's direction) the angels of which he was the firstborn and then the rest of creation.
So, at some point in all eternity, there was a beginning of something (probably the creation of our universe) and at that point the Word already existed. He could have come into existence at that point, but since he made all other created things, he probably was begotten/created some time before so that he could be the master workman through whom God created the universe.
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