1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured 'Was' and 'Beginning' in John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi.

    I f i may ask a question of all this..... What is the parable teaching in your opinion?
    It seems that you are saying the parable is merely stating that Good and evil co-exist in the world until the judgement.

    Why would a parable be needed to point out the obvious to a people who's core understanding was that good and evil will co-exist until judgement day. Is their nothing, in your opinion, deeper to it than that?
    Peace.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,969
    Ratings:
    +5,242
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Whose exegesis are you relying on? That could be the problem....

    The parable is prophetic...it is obvious. The same corruption that derailed Judaism, was to also going derail Christianity.....a reliance on human traditions rather than of the word of God. It worked so well for the devil the first time...he did it again. The Jews never noticed....and Christendom hasn't either. Its a certain kind of "blindness". (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    Christendom pretends that it never happened, but at the end of this system of things, when Jesus comes as judge, the sheep and the goats are already separated. "Sheep and goats"..."wheat and weeds"....'only two roads'...these are what Jesus taught. All are either one or the other, traveling the cramped and narrow road to life...or ignorantly traveling down the easy road to death. It's our choice. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Think of the broader context of Matthew, who his intended audience is, and how it’s constructed. Matthew is constructed around five discourses. The first and fifth point to the second and fourth. They point to the “nugget” of truth in the middle — like concentric circles.

    Matthew was written for a group of displaced Jewish believers living in Gentile territory. Matthew’s impetus is to establish this community as the “true” Israel, that is, those Jews who were outcast, “unrighteousness” in the eyes of the Judaic religious establishment, those who were “evil” in the eyes of that establishment.
    The parable of the sheep and goats and the parable of the wheat and weeds show that the distinctions made by the Judaic religious authorities were false, that both “righteous” Jews and outcast Jews were all part of the same family, and that it was the “meek,” the “persecuted,” the “outcast” whom God would separate out as the “true” Israel in the end, because Jesus’ definition of righteousness was different from that of the “establishment.” Therefore, the outcast-yet-righteous Jews were the true Israel, by virtue of following Jesus.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Standard scholastic exegesis using peer reviewed scholarship, and taught by several who are noted experts on the Gospels and Matthew in particular.

    Nope. First of all the Gospel genre isn’t prophetic. Second, the writer of Matthew was more concerned with dissing the establishment and setting up his own community as the “true” Israel, than he was with what might happen in the future.

    Sorry; your conjecture is simply wrong here.
     
  5. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi.
    So..... the parable is re-iterating in open and clear language to the displaced Jewish Believers what would have been their core understanding anyway and you see it that way because Matthew wanted to let them know that the Judiac religious establishment disliked them that, they were wrong, and to not take it to heart.

    Why would any Jewish believer, outcast or not, be under the impression that the views of the Jewish establishment meant anything and that Jesus would need to design a parable to address a ridiculous problem like that.
    Being baptised in Christ was the glue that bound them not some supposed solidarity derived from "well they hate us too."
    It seems to me the fact that the Judiac establishment killed Jesus and were actively persecuting them would have let them know that the estalishment might be on the wrong track.

    To just leave that parable out would make no difference to the core teaching that you believe is being given. Try it.
    No. Each of these parables stand on their own. None are just mere reiteration of well know, foundational beliefs.
    Peace .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi.
    Is it your belief that "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." is telling you that apostasy will never be able to corrupt the church and that the "catholic" ecumenical church councils were "Gods spirit" defending true doctrine. So therefore the parable could not be warning of false christianity and true christianity existing together until seperated in the last days.

    You do know that the other teachings never went away don't you and have seemed to explode again in the last century, which many consider to be the harvest time or at least its immediate precursor. It seems that the teachings that have blossomed out "at the time of end" are the heresies that christendom thought it had repressed, sometimes through massive and sustained bloodshed.

    Early christian history is a fascinating thing to study. One thing that stands out is the disparite organisational structure. Their was no center of power where the faith could be moulded or corrupted. If satan wanted to influence the whole religion the first time that would have been possible was Nicaea.

    False teachers, but no false teachings could gain influence. It was the advent of the councils that changed this. For the first time in history influencing a single group of men would influence the entire direction of the faith. If they introduced a false teaching it would be enforced with imperial vigor and be considered orthodox.

    It is no secret that the power and wealth on offer as Imperial partners was immense and all that was needed to access this wealth was consensus among these few men who now held imperial authority in their own little patch.
    The Father though had no such constraints and did not need councils called by secular authorities to protect the faith.

    Look at the immediate history following this Imperialisation of the faith. Within a century we have Christian armies, christians executing fellow christians, incredible wealth and power flowing into the bishoprics, the lowering of standards to a "nominal" christianity, ritual replacing christian ministry, christian at the games, christians at the races, (look up the greens and the blues) near worship of the Emperors who are placed in christ's position as intercessor (vicar) of christ,and possibly worst of all christianity became racist and elitest.



    These councils are "the evil one' sowing weeds amongst the truth. The proof of this is the immediate degradation of christian morals and behaviour after these champions of truth got their hands on the faith as a whole and were able to mould the entire religion in any direction directed by expedience.

    They, the bishops of the imperial church, planted a weed field amongst the wheat. But the wheat remained and is NOW sprouting at the appointed time.
    Peace.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,547
    Ratings:
    +949
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe "The Word was God" means that every attribute of God can also be attributed to the Word and since God is eternal then the Word is also.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,547
    Ratings:
    +949
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is incorrect. Jesus is man and God and the Christ is Jesus.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,547
    Ratings:
    +949
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe God gives me the correct interpretation so it is the correct one. Things coming from people's minds are not correct.
     
  10. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,226
    Ratings:
    +440
    Religion:
    christian
    Jesus is an archetype of man becoming Godlike. there is no other use of Christ Jesus for mankind because we do not step beyond Demiurge.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,969
    Ratings:
    +5,242
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The Pharisees were noted experts on their scriptures too....Jesus wasn't impressed with their scholarship....why would I be impressed with Christendom's scholars? They have twisted all of Christ's teachings. Look at the state of Christendom...do you see Christians in unity? Do they fit Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 1:10? Seriously?

    Are you dismissing Matthew 24, which is clearly prophetic. It's outlining a dual fulfilment, the greater fulfilment is about the return of Christ.....do you believe it's happened yet?

    Parables weren't just stories...they were lessons.
    The "wheat and the weeds" was one parable that the apostles wanted clarified....Jesus told them specifically what it meant. It was prophetic.

    In your opinion perhaps.....but it stacks up according to my own studies over 47 years. I know what makes absolute sense to me.

    Time will tell....won't it?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    These aren’t the apologetics of ancient religious leaders; they’re scholastic treatments of ancient texts. Oh, and these aren’t “Christendom’s” scholars. These are objective, dispassionate experts without a religious agenda.
    It’s a story in which a character prophesies. But it’s not a prophecy. The more so because, by the time the Gospel was written, the temple had already been destroyed, along with much of Jerusalem. In a war.

    Duh.

    You missed the plot line somewhere.

    Lots of people go to their doctor and inform him of what’s wrong with them and demand pills, too — because it “makes sense” to them. In your 40-some years, have you studied under any peer-reviewed, notable, dispassionate Bible scholars, or was this all self-study out of the Reader’s Digest Condensed Commentary, over a bowl of Froot Loops?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. tigger2

    tigger2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2019
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +114
    Religion:
    JW
    "These aren’t the apologetics of ancient religious leaders; they’re scholastic treatments of ancient texts. Oh, and these aren’t “Christendom’s” scholars. These are objective, dispassionate experts without a religious agenda."

    Then you should be able to give the references to these "objective, dispassionate experts without a religious agenda." Who are they? Where can we find their studies concerning this?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi/
    Just a couple of things.
    So secular scholars are the ones that unraveled a "parable" for you. No wonder you get it wrong. The bible is written to it's own people and it is not understandable by people without God's spirit is it not?

    The wisdom of God is foolishness to men is it not?

    The character prophesies but it's not a prophecy... good one.

    Matthew is before 70ce.

    Why is it that the christrian faith became a bloodthirsty power hungry organisation IMMEDIATELY after your "champoins" came in and supposedly saved the faith from us heritics.

    It's because your imperial approved bishopric planted WEEDS not wheat. Within a decade of Nicaea christians were killing christians and you take this as proof of divine approval?
    By their FRUITS you will know them.
    Peace.
     
    #54 Moz, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi Deeje.

    It is amazing to me that they do not see the clear evidence that something happened when christianity morphed into christendom. All the bloodshed, hypocrisy, greed, political maneuvering, wealth, secular power actually ALL the things that people accuse christianity of doing wrong are POST the interference of the Imperium.

    They know, or at least they should, that satan is the power behind the secular governments yet they claim that it was the interjection of imperial control and organisation that saved the truth.

    I actually think that a better approach than the scripture war approach with some types is to point out the fruits of their champions and get them to justify the consequences of their heroes of the faith.By their fruits you will know them. It's not only scriptual knowledge that convinces, the Bible is too big ,too slippery. You really can prove anything if you use the right scriptures. Theirs a way to argue for reincarnation, for example.

    But the fruits. With those they have to make a real world decision. To justify their view they need to justify the consequences that flowed from them, the transformation of a religion of peace and love to a world of christian bloodshed and hate. If they are happy with that then that truly is a decision of the heart and it's time to shake of the dust and leave.

    The reformation is good for this as well. You can contrast the conduct of their faiths against the anabaptist groups that both the reformists and the catholics slaughtered in the reformation. The Nicaean way ALWAYS led to bloodshed, torture and death for their opponents, showing how the reformed religions are merely daughters of the harlot and share the same tainted blood. It's incredible that the reformation touched nearly every aspect of christian worship except for the decrees of the councils. Those pronouncements were sacrosanct, not to even be considered on pain of death.

    Also if engaged in a conversation about the events of the 1500's, for instance, even sojourner may admitt that their were "weeds" in the church bringing in false teachings and destructive sects. He was right in one respect though. The parable of the wheat and the weeds does give those of us who are "cast out" by the religious establishment much encouragement. We can look at the broad sweep of christian history and see those little clumps of wheat surviving amongst the weeds. And we can also see that these little clumps of wheat have bloomed into very identifiable choice grain right when they were supposed too.
    Peace.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    It’s odd. One poster ridicules what are *assumed* to be religious scholars for having some biased, theological agenda. The next ridicules the *secular* scholars because they “can’t possibly understand” without the spirit of God.

    Sounds to me like they should both be locked in a room together with an NRSV Bible, and a Watchtower tract until they can come to some sort of agreement.
    The texts were written for their specific audiences, who are separated from us by time, culture and language. We don’t understand the texts without help from scholars. (But I’m sure you’ll dream up some sort of problem with scholars, even though without them you wouldn’t have a Bible you could read.)

    On the contrary. We all have that wisdom inside us. I’m sure you’ll diss that too.

    ...says the one who knows not thing one about literary criticism and couldn’t care less.


    Because: “Baah-bul.”

    Aaaaaand this is the result of not caring about scholarship ( because: “HOE-lee Speerutt.”)

    Non sequitur diatribe inserted for comedy value.

    I don’t believe you.
     
    #56 sojourner, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Nope, Mr JW. Not getting drawn into that. You’re interested only in dismissing them. Not gunna waste time and bandwidth. You want to find out who the big guns are? Invest your own time and money in a quality, accredited seminary program (which I’m sure you’ll dismiss with a laugh as being part of the “Eeeeeeviiiiil Christendom monster). Your loss.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,993
    Ratings:
    +4,088
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    I like your little pretend “I’m going to have friendly aside with my buddy” as a thinly-veiled vehicle for addressing a diatribe to me without actually addressing me.

    Cute.

    Peurile, but cute.

    It’s clear you have no clue who I am or what my religious stance is. So you’re doing nothing but farting into the wind.
     
  19. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi.
    Matthew is said to be based on either the "hypothetical" Q source or Mark's gospel. That is the scholarly consensus and they are PRE 70ce. Actually early 40,s is the most common date. As just a single reference, amongst many many more if you want, is Bart Ehrmans stuff he's as secular and anti bible as you can get.
    I'm sure you can show me scholarship that may argue Matthew was "written" after 70ce, not many though, but even they would admitt to the Mark attribution, BECAUSE of the extensive literary analysis. Mark and Matthew are linked anyway you slice it. NOW... tell me Mark or Q is pre 70ce.

    I think being secular scholars, or biased religious scholars implies that they would not be guided by holy spirit, but i guess looking at the same thing from different perspectives is beyond some people.

    The texts were written to "Gods people" regardless of the times they lived in.


    It is interesting that you find the change from 300 years of no christian violence to 1500 years of slaughter in the name of Christ of comedic value. It makes me look to see what went WRONG and i see the start of your violent brand of the religion as being dominate and killing those who held my beliefs. 1000 years ago you, as a faithful christian, would be HAPPILY killing me, or on the sidelines cheering it on, in the most painful way possible in the name of YOUR god. Doesn't that make you THINK at all. Is it REALLY funny?

    If the change was not false teaching why did they start killing?

    Peace..... If you don't believe me that it is because you misunderstand the concept. It actually means that no matter how much i dislike, even hate someone, they have no need to fear any violence from me. I am peace.

    Now dust shaking time.

    Peace.
     
  20. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    363
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi. Your religious stance is that you support the brand of christianity that claims to be contiguous with Apostolic teaching as confirmed by the councils. Otherwise you would not be arguing that the faith has never been corrupted by weeds.

    The fruits belie that claim. Oh their are variations to be sure, pentecostal, baptist, reformed, lutheran .... but all children of the councils all covered in the blood of innocents. The oneness types even desperately twist and squirm to proclaim orthodox belief and not admitt to modalism so as not to be kicked out of the club. Watch a James White verses oneness debate on utube.... they are hilarious. Talk about a house divided against itself.

    You seem to be happy with the history of bloodshed by your holy faith so........ cool.
    I am actually happy that my beliefs are the ones that would have led to the people of your side killing me. It seems right to me so......... cool.
    Peace.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...