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Featured 'Was' and 'Beginning' in John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This made me smile...perhaps you should check out your own posts and report yourself :D

    Telling the truth is not bullying.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Humility. Remember humility.

    Learn it.

    Know it.

    Live it.
     
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  3. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hi
    The mistake you are making is in taking things from the Mosaic law and making Universal eternal pronoucments based on them. The other nations were not informed of this proporional punishment system were they. These are not universal principles applied to all of mankind.
    How can this be applied to mankind in general if they were never told about it....... God always warns before he punishes.... it is NEVER the case that you find out afterwards. Everyone Knows the final condition of sinful man is death because he told that to ALL mankind in Eden. DEATH is the ONLY punishment ever told to the entire human race.
    ...............................................................................
    The judgement in Eden gives the universal punishment for ALL sin. DEATH,
    ...................................................................................
    The stuff about Romans 6 was just silly. It was a quote from the Common English Bible and you spend paragraphs railing against the NWT. Your bias blinds your thought.
    But anyway..........As if their is a difference between ........For the wages of sin is death,
    the wages sin pays is death
    They say EXACTLY the same thing. And it is not that the wages of sin depend on how bad you are.
    .........................................................................................
    Hey.... are their proportional rewards in HEAVEN. The parable of the stewards in your telling of this would suggest that Heaven is also full of different levels of eternal reward, how could their not be using the EXACT same reasoning you used on punishment.... now be careful with that one.
    Their is only one class in Heaven is their not.But...................... If you are a better person on earth it only seems fair that you get a better seat in heaven. Just like if you are a worse person you get a worse seat in hell.
    Do you agree with that..... well i suppose you have too.

    '..................................................................

    The examples I showed were BIBLICAL, not civil examples Moz.
    They were from the National law code that Jehovah gave to Israel are they not? They WERE the civil laws by their very nature. Btw.... Hammurabis code is very very similar to the Mosaic law except where the religious laws stuff comes in.... but pretty close really.
    ......................................................................

    Now the Caiphas thing is easy. His sin is greater in that he rejected the Messiah after being given clear evidence that Jesus was from God. He sinned against a manifestation of God fully aware of what he was doing. HE will not be back. The Romans on the other hand did not know who they killed and they will be back. Easy.
    ......................................................................
    The idea that sin and hate of God will he present in the Universe for all eternity is the most anti biblical thought i have ever heard. Their WAS NO SIN in the universe before the rebellion their will be NONE after the rebellion has been crushed.
    No the wicked will not segregated from the righteous so they can hate god forever. Pain and mourning and outcry will be done away with in ALL of creation.
    ....................................................
    Peace
     
  4. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    No they weren’t informed which means there sin was not as great. You claimed all sin is the same, remember?:

    All sin cannot possible be the same otherwise Jesus would not have mentioned the ‘greater sin” of Caiaphas!


    Perhaps an illustration might explain it to you better:

    Fred is an artist who has just pulled his rental car into a gas station. It’s his 1st day in Australia and he’s excited to be there. He’s filling his tank when he realizes the landscape across the gas station would be a great scene for a painting were it not for the unsightly, rundown tenement building that partially blocks his view.

    Fred: How long has the building across the street been abandoned?

    Gas attendant: I don’t know…years maybe.

    Fred: Oh good! In that case would you happen to have an empty bottle I can fill at the pump, a rag, and a box of matches?

    The attendant is immediately alarmed.

    Attendant: What are you planning to do?

    Fred: Why I intend to make a little cocktail that will burn that unsightly building across the street to the ground of course. You can thank me for it later.

    Attendant: You can’t do that! That would be a violation of…

    Fred: Whoa! Let me stop you right there!! I’m a foreigner who’s just arrived, and no one’s explained a single Australian law to me since I’ve been here.

    Attendant: Oh! Well in that case feel free to carry on. There’s no way we can apply the law if you were never told about it!

    I don't know how things work in Australia, but I suspect they're not that different from the US.

    Not quite Moz. Some people die without ever repenting or being punished for their sins. They will find out eventually, after death, not before. Let me cite you some scripture to explain why:

    For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)​

    People know innately right from wrong. Just as Fred knows burning down buildings is wrong, so the nations know that certain activities are wrong and thus are without excuse.

    All sin is wrong but that does not mean all sin the same. As I showed earlier, some sins are greater than other sins. For example, one who knows the law but still sins commits a greater (not the same) sin than the same man who sins but does not know the law. It can be the same sin but punished differently depending on the heart (or other factors) of the individual committing the sin.

    When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48).

    If "all sin is the same" to God, please explain why some folk receive few blows, while others receive many.

    ...............................................................................
    A&E's disobedience led to death, but that does not make all sin the same. It's fairly obvious there's no such thing as "greater sin" in a universe where all sin is the same.
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    A poor translation is still a poor translation Moz, so it's "serious" rather than "silly".


    "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it". Deuteronomy 12:32 sounds a lot more serious than silly.

    "Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:6 sound a lot more wise than silly.

    But just to be sure, let's look at it again. I asked you previously where we can find the word "pays". Perhaps this time you can show us. We will use the Watchtower's Kingdom Interlinear as a guide.

    Romans 6-23.png

    I'm still looking for that "silly" word...the verb "pays". It certainly suggests an action that's never appeared in the manuscripts.

    Quite simply, the verse is better translated WITHOUT the word "pays". Our sins have been paid for, but not with our own sins or by our own death. It was through the blood of Christ, and to suggest otherwise is just plain "silly".


    I can toss unsupported statements that blow hot air too Moz, but I would much rather you show us the word "pays".

    Nah.

    The first one has no “pay”, the second does, and the only one who has paid for my sins is Christ.

    We do not pay for our sins simply by dying Moz. We are still held accountable to God. Sin results in death, but it doesn’t pay for the sin.

    Remember the scenario about Hitler you did not answer? You asked how Hitler pays for the death of millions of people.

    If dying pays for his sin then Hitler paid for all six or seven million by blowing his brains out in a bunker. So Hitler's suicide, an act and sin he voluntarily engages in, pays for the millions of lives he took away.

    Since these sins are now paid he's now in line for a resurrection. The only way I can see him paying for the millions of other deaths is if Jehovah resurrects and kills him millions of times. Do you see this happening or would you consider it like I do...nonsensical and "silly"?

    So please, when you tell us that "ALL sin is all the same", tell us what church or religion supports this view. Then tell us why Caiaphas committed a “greater sin” according to Jesus.
     
  6. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    YES!! Now you’re catching on Moz. I was afraid all this was for naught.

    Of course there are proportional rewards in heaven just like there are proportional rewards on earth. You reap what you sow. The reasoning is exact. They are two sides of a coin.

    As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.​

    The poor widow was judged to have given more with her 2 copper coins than any rich man that gave from excess wealth. That has ‘PROPORTION” written all over it.

    Perhaps an illustration will help:

    When Jesus noticed how the guests chose the places of honor, He told them a parable: “When you are invited to a wedding banquet, do not sit in the place of honor, in case someone more distinguished than you has been invited. Then the host who invited both of you will come and tell you, ‘Give this man your seat.’ And in humiliation, you will have to take the last place.

    But when you are invited, go and sit in the last place, so that your host will come and tell you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in front of everyone at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.​

    It doesn’t sound like everyone will be sitting in the same seat to me, which is exactly what would happen if all sins and rewards were the same.

    So when Jesus asks us to sit at his table, I would not be too presumptuous of where I expect to sit.

    The more unrepentant sin you commit, the greater the punishment.


    No, because the law was a lot more than just civil. Civil law dealt with relationships between individuals, but there was also moral and ceremonial law.


    That is interesting but not surprising. Abraham also paid a tithe to God's priest, Melchizedek. I suspect there's a lot more things to learn from our early history but I'm not sure how much we'll find or actually know this side of Jesus' arrival.

    I wish I knew all the answers Moz but it would be foolish to claim I did. Right now we see through a glass darkly.


    That was easy!

    So if Caiaphas’ sin is greater as stated above, how can you say “All sin is the same?”


    Either that is hyperbole or you haven't been on this forum for too long. In any event you really should read Revelation 20:7-10.

    But I would like you to elaborate a bit more here.

    Are you saying God will force Satan to love Him, or are you saying God will kill Satan out of love?


    So they are bound, brought before His throne, and killed before everyone? Or does He do this on the side so we don’t have to see?

    Well I suppose annihilation would certainly be an effective way to silence all that “wailing and gnashing of teeth”.

    Thanks, but I notice your approach to “Peace” appears to be somewhat similar to ISIS. Whenever they took over a town they simply rounded up anyone who complained (or might complain) and impaled them on a stake, beheaded them, or gunned them down.

    From their perspective, they considered it much more merciful then keeping a bunch of ISIS haters in prison. What about them could the populace not love?

    It was there way of bringing “Peace”, but I really don't think it was Godly. That's why some might say your plan of death rather than imprisonment might be one "of the most anti-biblical thoughts they've ever heard."
     
  7. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hi
    Hi
    So you end up with a Universe where sin remains forever. Good one.
    ........................................................................................
    But I would like you to elaborate a bit more here.
    Are you saying God will force Satan to love Him, or are you saying God will kill Satan out of love?
    I am saying that satan will not be allowed to exist forever hating God behind some screen or chasm or however you imagine your imaginary hell. Satan will be ENDED. Sin will be ended. Death will be ended. Thrown into the lake of fire.
    ...........................................................................................
    Death is done away with.
    Don't you get it...in your telling you have spiritually dead people existing forever... that just doesn't work if you think it through. If we were to get into the "soul" debate you would assure me that we are a body and a soul and would be at pains to point out that both the body and the soul experience death. That's where the physical death, spiritual death dance begins... but in this instance let us say you are right.
    These spiritually dead people remain spiritually dead people forever yes. So death exists forever.
    You also have sinners continuing to sin in hell... death is the punishment for sin... so death continues for all of eternity. Death was defeated in Christ it is not now an eternal feature of the universe. No sin and death before the rebellion none after the rebellion is over.
    ...........................................................................
    Well I suppose annihilation would certainly be an effective way to silence all that “wailing and gnashing of teeth”.

    Well leaving them alive in hell under varying degrees of intense mental anguish sure won't shut them up will it.
    In your view there will be pain, suffering and outcry against God as an eternal feature of the Universe.
    It will exist... don't you get it. Saying that we won't be able to see it or hear it won't change the fact that somewhere in creation true hate and evil still EXIST. Gods creation will never be wholly good.
    ...............................................................................

    The one that really got me was the Isis reference. Man there are so many avenues that comparison opens up. They are actually very "Old Testament" or "Crusader christian", in their zeal and attitudes to the perceived "enemies of God". A lot of the christians in your christian heritage would have seen nothing untoward in there conduct... that's also how the christians did it as well once upon a time.

    Also you do realise don't you that Jesus is one day going to lead the angelic hosts to do some version of ..... Whenever they took over a town they simply rounded up anyone who complained (or might complain) and impaled them on a stake, beheaded them, or gunned them down. Probably without the guns and impaling but it reads as pretty bloody in Revelations. So if God does these things it's a different story isn't it?

    But in all my years discussing hell verses annihilation i have never had anyone claim "Eternal Punishment" is the more humane option. Gotta give you points for that one.
    ..............................................................................
    It was there way of bringing “Peace”, but I really don't think it was Godly.
    It is the exact same way God says he will intervene to bring peace.... Armageddon is Gods war of annihilation of the wicked.
    .................................................................................

    I think you should be clear and honest if you wish to compare so i added the concepts that you left out for some reason........
    That's why some might say your plan of death rather than eternal imprisonment in varying degrees of extreme mental anguish, with no hope of parole or reprieve might be one "of the most anti-biblical thoughts they've ever heard."

    Non existence for those that reject existence seems fairer than eternal punishment for the sins of a few years.
    ..............................................
    ...........................
    Peace


     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's very good!

    Sin is a consequence of free will....the ability to miss the mark. When Adam exercised his free will and decided to go his own way, he allowed sin to enter the world because of his free choice.He missed the mark because his will was contrary to that of God.

    Eliminating sin means getting rid of free will and somehow I don’t imagine paradise as a universe of automatons.


    So he is either killed or forced to love God like an automaton. That's fine but I’m just not finding this in scripture.

    Who kills him?

    Then where is our free will?

    If death is ended how does God kill Satan? I suppose he can save death for last, but then He would need death to kill death wouldn't He?


    We have spiritually dead people in our prisons right now. They are safely put away. I don’t see the necessity in killing them which is what you’re arguing for here.

    We also have millions of "spiritually dead" (by traditional Christian standards) but law abiding people outside our prisons, commonly referred to as atheists. No one claims we’ll be better off if we just kill them. Imagine if your parent or spouse has not been spiritually awakened. Do you think you and the rest of the world will be better if God kills them?

    You’re not advocating for physical death which is ultimately recoverable through Christ, you’re advocating for their spiritual death as well. From my perspective that would make the killer as “spiritually dead” as the spiritually dead person they're killing.

    The people exist forever because death is no more. Sin exists because free will exists. Sin existed as soon as God made creatures with free will, so it was there prior to Adam. Once Adam made his bad choice sin was free to enter the world.

    I don’t see a scenario where God takes free will away. So sin is still there, but it’s no longer in the world, just like it wasn’t prior to Adam’s disobedience.

    The sinner remains in punishment forever because they never repented, just as the righteous remain in Christ because they did. Sin no more dies from an unregenerate spirit than blessings die from a regenerated (quickened) spirit.

    If sin itself was an entity or creature (as some believe) that could “die” there would be no reason for anyone to be imprisoned and certainly less reason for God to kill anyone. God could just kill “sin” as an entity and “poof”…there would be no more sin which would immediately eliminate the need to judge anyone.

    There is simply no reason to kill somebody already imprisoned. When two opposing sides go to war and the other victor decides it’s better to kill than take prisoners we call it a war crime. I don’t know of anyone who considers killing the imprisoned righteous or just.



    But the rebellion is over, yet you have plenty of death. God is not simply imprisoning people in hell, your eschatology has Him annihilating these people as well.
    ...........................................................................


    No, that's why they moan. They fact they can is indicative of God's grace and mercy.

    Let’s use an earthly example. The prisoners in Australia’s largest jail sail are complaining about being locked up. They want more time in the prison yard, less time in the cell.

    Is your answer “death” to shut them up?

    Would we be more Godly if we did?


    No because Hell is not the universe and our universe will not be hell.



    All creation will be made subject to God “on earth as it is in heaven”. God will be sovereign ruler over all, which includes Hell.

    That generation will have to answer to God just as this generation and every other generation before and after it will answer. I think each generation will be so busy answering for themselves they'll have little time to point fingers. Remember Proverbs 30:11:

    There is a generation of those who curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers.

    Some say we live in such a generation now.


    There is certainly physical death but what I don’t see is the spiritual annihilation you argue for.

    Thank you, but I can’t take the credit. It’s pretty standard as a Christian belief. It’s why we have more life sentences than beheadings. I understand that in some cultures a beheading is considered more humane than a life sentence but I had never counted Australia as one of them.


    ..............................................................................

    We are all wicked Moz, it’s just that our wicked sins are covered by the blood of Christ. If the war were to annihilate the wicked none of us would survive and I don’t see that as the kind of “Peace” God intends to bring.


    My goodness! Let’s hope you never take over our mental health or prison system.:confused:

    But if eternal punishment "for the sins of a few years" is unjust, is eternal reward "for obeying the Lord for a few years" equally unjust?
     
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