Venturing A Prediction

[Father Heathen]

Yes... my intent was that both statements are totally random and arbitrary and ridiculous

No, Christian conservatives have a religious-based fixation with Israel; it's always a primary component of their end times fantasies.

 

[Kenny]

No, Christian conservatives have a religious-based fixation with Israel; it's always a primary component of their end times fantasies.

What you call a fantasy is an end time reality. As prophesied, Israel would become a nation again and it will be a focal point of contention.

Not sure how this statement has anything to do with the other off-the-wall statement.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I genuinely feel like the best solution is allowing, and even supporting as many people to leave Gaza as possible. We are talking about around 2 million people. If people unite around this, the size of the conflict will get much much smaller.

Make a deal with Egypt to open it's border, and engage in war if necessary just to keep Hamas from closing it. Then spread the refugees across the world by giving them alternatives. What do you think? @Debater Slayer

I've decided to limit my participation in threads about the current war, but in a nutshell, the suggestion that Palestinians should abandon their homes and land and go elsewhere is heavily frowned upon by many Palestinians and many people from neighboring states alike. How many populations would be okay with leaving the land and homes in which they and their ancestors have lived for generations and becoming refugees around the world just to make room for another state to expand against the borders drawn for it per international law?

That suggestion would almost surely fall flat before it was even attempted, especially because it would be too lopsided in favor of illegal expansionism and against the rights of Palestinians living in Gaza.

 

[Bthoth]

Well, it's plausible, I suppose, but I don't know if it's true. I don't think Egypt will accept the Gazans, so how will they rid Gaza of them? They can't kill them all (I hope). Dunno.

A genocide must not happen!

 

[Bthoth]

What you call a fantasy is an end time reality. As prophesied, Israel would become a nation again and it will be a focal point of contention.

And per tanach and bible, israel is condemned for it. Keep in mind, that prophecy are based on visions not that god told people what is coming.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What you call a fantasy is an end time reality.

According to your religious beliefs, which are not shared by the majority of the world's population and certainly not by the majority of Palestinians who have a major stake in the issue.

I think what you've just said highlights why your views on this are, in my opinion, heavily one-sided and dismissive of Palestinians' concerns or a two-state solution. This is typical of the markedly politicized nature of evangelical Zionism in the US.

As prophesied, Israel would become a nation again and it will be a focal point of contention.

Again, according to your religious beliefs. The fact is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves the interests of many people with diverse beliefs and backgrounds. It won't be resolved through religiously biased, one-dimensional lenses, be they evangelical Zionist or Islamist.

 

[Revoltingest]

You think you’re right. I think I’m right. Big deal.

Now that's more like it!

 

[Kenny]

And per tanach and bible, israel is condemned for it. Keep in mind,

you will have to expound on simple statements. that prophecy are based on visions not that god told people what is coming.

Really?

So God doesn't speak through visions and dreams?

And every time something says "Thus saith the Lord," it is always a vision?

Or is it that prophecy was fulfilled that bothers you!

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas not killing as many from a distance is not for lack of trying. It's just that Israel's Iron Dome prevents much of those attempts from succeeding.

The point isn't that one killing method is more
moral than another....it's the effect on innocents.
Methods chosen merely suit the one using them.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Hamas' suspected locations are reasonably precise.

And yet, Israel has already killed over
twice as many Palestinians in retaliation.

You can calculate the complete trajectory of an unguided missile from a part of that trajectory. And Hamas has no qualms to use schools and hospitals as launch sites.

You talk of "no qualms" regarding Hamas for killing x innocents.
What of qualms for Israelis killing 2x innocents?

And seeing Israel as the superior force and deducing a moral duty to start peace efforts....

You've re-stated my posts with an
inference that adds emotional baggage.
I say Israel has the "responsibility".
It's useful to focus upon solutions instead
of blame....which causes most people to
fanatically defend one side, & attack the other.

Hamas is aided and funded by multiple foreign forces which prefer to stay in the dark. There are just too many actors who prefer this conflict to go on.

Your attribution of motives is bogus
(IMO) & And dangerous because it
justifies the status quo.

 

[Kenny]

According to your religious beliefs, which are not shared by the majority of the world's population and certainly not by the majority of Palestinians who have a major stake in the issue.

I think what you've just said highlights why your views on this are, in my opinion, heavily one-sided and dismissive of Palestinians' concerns or a two-state solution. This is typical of the markedly politicized nature of evangelical Zionism in the US.

Actually, no. The micro is that both sides have done wrong... for that matter, every one of us have done wrong even if we are basically we are good people

What you are suggesting is that we should forget the macro in view of the micro IMO

Again, according to your religious beliefs. The fact is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves the interests of many people with diverse beliefs and backgrounds. It won't be resolved through religiously biased, one-dimensional lenses, be they evangelical Zionist or Islamist.

Again... no really ( according to my religious beliefs) but... yes. ' the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves the interests of many people with diverse beliefs and backgrounds. "

 

[Debater Slayer]

Actually, no. The micro is that both sides have done wrong... for that matter, every one of us have done wrong even if we are basically we are good people

What you are suggesting is that we should forget the macro in view of the micro IMO

I'm not suggesting that we forget anything. My position is clear: it doesn't help to overlook or minimize an entire population's rights and concerns.

What do you think of a two-state solution? Do we have common ground in agreeing that it would be a reasonable approach to pursue, or are you against it?

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't see any elaboration here either

With all the blathering I've posted,
how could you possibly have missed it?

I go by history.

So do I.
Do you realize that we might
use that info differently?

What is the mantra of Hamas for the Jewish nation- (The Hebrew for Hamas means violence interestingly enough)
What is the stated goal of Israel for Palestinians?

(As one Palestinian said who has since received Jesus - "I was taught since 3 years old to hate Jewish people and trained to kill them! We want more wives to produce more babies so that we can have more men to kill Jews". No bias, no media outlet, just plain cold hard fact delivered by one who was raised as a muslim.

How many Jewish people seek work or want to live in Palestine?
How many Palestine seek work or want to live in Israel?
Why the difference?

Who spends billions on making tunnels for the expressed purpose to infiltrate and attack another nation instead of helping its people? Who send missiles almost every day to a neighboring country to kill?

Who really oppresses who?

A Gish Gallop doesn't inspire answering all those questions.
It seems that we've a fundamental difference about several things....
- Palestinian human rights.
- How to de-fang Hamas & such ilk.
- The immorality & dysfunctionality of Israel's conduct.

BTW, consider that Hamas's charter calls for destruction of Israel.
And that Israel is a Jewish state....not for other religions.
And Judaism is about the Torah, which is filled with old school
pogroms....so I've been told by Christians & Jews.
So it has its own "charter" problem too.

 

[Bthoth]

you will have to expound on simple statements. that prophecy are based on visions not that god told people what is coming.

prophecy are like deja vu conscious life experiencing a future event. Happens all the time. The lives of today are of the lives of the past, the light upon today's life, is entangled to the light of the past generations.

Really?

So God doesn't speak through visions and dreams?

The last 'god' that spoke was a pharaoh and like jesus, a man made identifier but neither were ever a god.

And every time something says "Thus saith the Lord," it is always a vision?

Just as you wrote the term saith, many have written what a god saith'ith. In prophecy of old, it levies a sense of absolute as if there is a credibility.

I consider it like a persons conscious sitting on the shoulder of a person trying to debate with themselves whether they should do x or y before making a choice. So a person has a vision and then debating if they should convey it.

Or is it that prophecy was fulfilled that bothers you!

Here's a vision that i will put in front of you...if you want to see for yourself. Mark 10
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”


You can go read it from your favorite translation if you like. It's about verbatim in 2 books called gospel.

 

[Kenny]

I'm not suggesting that we forget anything. My position is clear: it doesn't help to overlook or minimize an entire population's rights and concerns.

What do you think of a two-state solution? Do we have common ground in agreeing that it would be a reasonable approach to pursue, or are you against it?

I'm not suggesting that we overlook an entire population's rights and concerns. (that goes both ways)

The two-state solution is already there... what have the Palestinians done to promote its success as they vote in Hamas whose only purpose is war?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not suggesting that we overlook an entire population's rights and concerns. (that goes both ways)

The two-state solution is already there... what have the Palestinians done to promote its success as they vote in Hamas whose only purpose is war?

Hamas doesn't rule democratically, and it is an armed organization ruling an unarmed population. To say that Palestinians "voted [Hamas] in" seems to me a stretch when looking at the current situation.

Israel is a nuclear power with backing from multiple global powers. It has had an unequivocal upper hand for decades.

Do you think the onus to pursue peace falls solely on the shoulders of Palestinians (not Hamas, but Palestinian civilians), or should Israel also do more to pursue peace and a two-state solution?

 

[Heyo]

You talk of "no qualms" regarding Hamas for killing x innocents.
What of qualms for Israelis killing 2x innocents?

When the IDF identify a location from which rockets have been fired and fire a rocket at that location, who is then more ruthless?

You've re-stated my posts with an
inference that adds emotional baggage.
I say Israel has the "responsibility".
It's useful to focus upon solutions instead
of blame....which causes most people to
fanatically defend one side, & attack the other.

That is exactly what I don't want. I repeat myself when I say that there are no good guys in this situation. This includes that I don't assign blame or "responsibility" to only one side.

 

[Revoltingest]

When the IDF identify a location from which rockets have been fired and fire a rocket at that location, who is then more ruthless?

Hard to say.
But Isreal's civilian death count is gold medal worthy.
Hamas gets only bronze.

That is exactly what I don't want. I repeat myself when I say that there are no good guys in this situation. This includes that I don't assign blame or "responsibility" to only one side.

I primarily see dead civilians as the "good guys".
But don't give this much attention.
Causes & solutions interest me.

 

[Kenny]

Hamas doesn't rule democratically, and it is an armed organization ruling an unarmed population. To say that Palestinians "voted [Hamas] in" seems to me a stretch when looking at the current situation.

That is true... They did have an election and then the Palestinian Hamas took over. What have the people done about it? Was it Israel's fault?

Israel is a nuclear power with backing from multiple global powers. It has had an unequivocal upper hand for decades.

Upper hand in what? Self defense? When has Israel instituted an invasion into Palestine to take over the territory? Did this "upper hand" stop Hamas from attacking? Did they even really care about what you call an "upper hand"?

Do you think the onus to pursue peace falls solely on the shoulders of Palestinians (not Hamas, but Palestinian civilians), or should Israel also do more to pursue peace and a two-state solution?

What do you want the Israeli's to do that they haven't already done?

 

[Lyndon]

Upper hand in what? Self defense? When has Israel instituted an invasion into Palestine to take over the territory? Did this "upper hand" stop Hamas from attacking? Did they even really care about what you call an "upper hand"

Another person that doesn't read the news or the history books, the whole country of Israel was created by an invasion of Palestine which continues to this day

 

[Koldo]

I've decided to limit my participation in threads about the current war, but in a nutshell, the suggestion that Palestinians should abandon their homes and land and go elsewhere is heavily frowned upon by many Palestinians and many people from neighboring states alike. How many populations would be okay with leaving the land and homes in which they and their ancestors have lived for generations and becoming refugees around the world just to make room for another state to expand against the borders drawn for it per international law?

That suggestion would almost surely fall flat before it was even attempted, especially because it would be too lopsided in favor of illegal expansionism and against the rights of Palestinians living in Gaza.

I genuinely don't see how sticking around in Gaza is going to improve the lives of those people. This is one of those situations where it is better to lose the saddle than the horse.