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Vegetarianism/Veganism and You
- Thread starter Sundance
- Start date
Wu Wei
ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
I ate a lot more meat than I usually do the last couple of days.... and I feel awful, stomach upset and headache... just can't bring myself to eat meat today, the bodily systems are telling no, and the brain is agreeing... so I think I will listen....going to go full on vegetarian the next few days and see if things straighten out
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Know it all.
Shaman.
That is kind-of accurate except it leaves out a lot.
As in the verse above that one tells a little more in Genesis 9:2
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered." Link.
The animals use to be friendly and safe but now according to that verse 2 the animals are made to live in fear and dread of the barbaric humans - that is a part of the price paid for eating animals.
At first the animals did not fear mankind - but now they do because of our violence.
Also in the New Testament Jesus said a peculiar thing here = " He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Link Matthew 19:8.
Jesus tells us to look back to the BEGINNING to find the truth, and it was only because of the hardness of human hearts that things changed. In the beginning humans did not eat animals, but after sin and sinning took control then humans ate the animals and got divorces and it was NOT meant to be that way.
Sinners are allowed to eat animals, but a righteous person must go back to the beginning and stop it.
I see that as a misuse of the word "love" because you just love to eat and there is no love for the cow.
To me we can not call anything as love when the thing is being destroyed by our so called love.
That is just a hardened heart.
Know it all.
Shaman.
Yes - and it is a realization - as like having an enlightenment.
That is sensible and perfectly logical but still in practice I find it to be wrong and backwards.
To give moral consideration to other people (tribes and races) is very difficult and way far out of the reach of most people because the human mentality has a hard time reaching out any moral standards. As like the USA using drone bombs against civilians and calling every dead person as a terrorist and most people can not grasp the evil of that against other unseen persons.
But in practice when I stopped eating animals as food then my vision to the rest of the world became far more open and broad. If we do not care about the blood and guts and flesh of an animal on our food plate then it is impossible to care about other people whom we can not see.
According to your logic, it would follow that, since God says people can eat meat, God's turning people into sinners!?
Not only is that ridiculous, it's also impossible....God Himself sets the standard for what is righteous, and what is sinful. So if God approves of the action, it can't be sin!
You said: "At first the animals did not fear mankind - but now they do because of our violence."
As many times as I've been on a farm, I've never had a cow "fear" me....or a pig.
(The subject Jesus was discussing in Matthew 19:4-8 is completely different and more important, regarding one wife to one husband. And for Christians, that applies.
But Jesus imposed no laws against eating meat. Putting further burdens on people that are not backed by the Scriptures, is harsh and Pharisaical. Matthew 11:28-30 should apply to us, as it did Jesus.)
You seem like a caring individual, but that is quite an assumption you're making!
Again, God says it's fine to eat animals. (Even His chosen people were allowed to eat some meat.)
Now, please reason on this: if God thought that our eating animals would affect our caring about other humans, do you really think He would allow it? There is no way.
There are lots of ancient writings from all over the world, describing the rules of propriety of various tribes. Trying to apply these, unmodified, to a modern, sophisticated civilization seems like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.
Personally, I subscribe to a principled morality, rather than a collection of plug-in dos and don'ts.
Personally, I subscribe to a principled morality, rather than a collection of plug-in dos and don'ts.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think that people who restrict their diet on religion grounds ought to truly understand the religious reasons for the dietary restriction. Otherwise, they risk doing an injustice to themselves.
Here's an Old Testament Excerpt for the Bible Thumpers:
The point here is that being someone who kills plants instead of killing animals does not actually make you a less violent person or a more holy person.
Eastern religions, on the other hand, sometimes see vegetarianism as a practice of ahimsa or ahinsa. This comes from the belief that eating animals would incur a greater negative karmic influence than eating plants. In other words, it is not simply out of a belief that animals deserve "dignity and respect" yet somehow plants do not deserve dignity or respect, but rather the notion that we can modify our karma and obtain release from it through austerities and purity of conduct.
Here's an Old Testament Excerpt for the Bible Thumpers:
Adam knew his wife Eve intimately, and she conceived and bore Cain. She said, "I have had a male child with the Lord's help."
Then she also gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel became a shepherd of a flock, but Cain cultivated the land. In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also presented [an offering] – some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions. The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but He did not have regard for Cain and his offering. Cain was furious, and he was downcast.
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field."
And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
— Genesis 4:1–8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
And one from the New Testament:Then she also gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel became a shepherd of a flock, but Cain cultivated the land. In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also presented [an offering] – some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions. The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but He did not have regard for Cain and his offering. Cain was furious, and he was downcast.
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field."
And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
— Genesis 4:1–8 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous."
— 1 John 3:12
What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them
— Mathew 15:11 (New International Version)
And the Qur'an:— 1 John 3:12
What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them
— Mathew 15:11 (New International Version)
[Prophet], tell them the truth about the story of Adam's two sons: each of them offered a sacrifice, and it was accepted from one and not the other. One said, 'I will kill you,' but the other said, 'God only accepts the sacrifice of those who are mindful of Him. If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you. I fear God, the Lord of all worlds, and I would rather you were burdened with my sins as well as yours and became an inhabitant of the Fire: such is the evildoers' reward.' But his soul prompted him to kill his brother: he killed him and became one of the losers. God sent a raven to scratch up the ground and show him how to cover his brother's corpse and he said, 'Woe is me! Could I not have been like this raven and covered up my brother's body?' He became remorseful.
— The QUR'AN (English translation by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem)
— The QUR'AN (English translation by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem)
The point here is that being someone who kills plants instead of killing animals does not actually make you a less violent person or a more holy person.
Eastern religions, on the other hand, sometimes see vegetarianism as a practice of ahimsa or ahinsa. This comes from the belief that eating animals would incur a greater negative karmic influence than eating plants. In other words, it is not simply out of a belief that animals deserve "dignity and respect" yet somehow plants do not deserve dignity or respect, but rather the notion that we can modify our karma and obtain release from it through austerities and purity of conduct.
arthra
Baha'i
Well a somewhat related Baha'i principle is kindness to animals...
Then, O ye friends of God! Ye must not only have kind and merciful feelings for mankind, but ye should also exercise the utmost kindness towards every living creature. The physical sensibilities and instincts are common to animal and man. Man is, however, negligent of this reality and imagines that sensibility is peculiar to mankind, therefore he practices cruelty to the animal. In reality what difference is there in physical sensations! Sensibility is the same whether you harm man or animal: there is no difference. Nay, rather, cruelty to the animal is more painful because man has a tongue and he sighs, complains and groans when he receives an injury and complains to the government and the government protects him from cruelty; but the poor animal cannot speak, it can neither show its suffering nor is it able to appeal to the government. If it is harmed a thousand times by man it is not able to defend itself in words nor can it seek justice or retaliate. Therefore one must be very considerate towards animals and show greater kindness to them than to man. Educate the children in their infancy in such a way that they may become exceedingly kind and merciful to the animals. If an animal is sick they should endeavor to cure it; if it is hungry, they should feed it; if it is thirsty, they should satisfy its thirst; if it is tired, they should give it rest.
Man is generally sinful and the animal is innocent; unquestionably one must be more kind and merciful to the innocent."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 373
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Man is generally sinful and the animal is innocent; unquestionably one must be more kind and merciful to the innocent. The harmful animals, such as the bloodthirsty wolf, the poisonous snake and other injurious animals are excepted, because mercy towards these is cruelty to man, and other animals. For instance, if you show kindness to a wolf this becomes a tyranny to the sheep, for it may destroy an entire flock of sheep. If you give the opportunity to a mad dog it may be the cause of the destruction of a thousand animals and men. Therefore, sympathy to the ferocious animal is cruelty to the peaceful animal, so they should be done away with. To the blessed animals, however, the utmost kindness should be exercised: the more the better it will be.
This sympathy and kindness is one of the fundamental principles of the divine kingdom. Ye should pay great attention to this question.
~Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith (p. 373-374)
Fixed that for you.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
I'm sure you know that after the flood:
KJV Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
By this permission man may with a good conscience use the creatures of God for his needs (NIV)
Know it all.
Shaman.
It is misunderstood to call it as sin because most people have no idea of what the word sin really means.
If we do sin then we will not be hit by lightning and will not burn in a Hell and God forgives our sins.
The word sin means = to miss the mark - as in shooting at a target and miss that mark, so if I eat animal meat it would be a sin for me as I would be missing my mark, but people like your self are not really missing the mark (not sinning) because you are not even shooting at the target.
The Bible tells us that at one time God chose a group of people to be His representatives on earth and God fed them manna from Heaven (not meat) and those people got angry about the manna and they demanded to eat "flesh" to gratify their lust, see Numbers 11:4
And it goes on to say that God gave into their lust and their demands and gave those people the flesh (the meat) for their lust, see here Numbers 11:33-34
And the Bible does tell us that some times God does turn people into their sins (into their lust), see Romans 1:24-26 "God gave them up ..."
God does not approve of the sinning - as is said = "Father forgive them as they know not what they do."
The stupid animals have been tricked and deceived, as like a horse will buck until it is broken.
I do believe that God put the stupidity into the domesticated animals as God's mercy as His protection for what the violent humans do to them.
In ancient times killing the animals was done as a sacrifice, as God told the people how to clean and cook the meat instead of eating it raw as they use to do, but once in the Old Testament and again in the New Testament it declares that = God wanted mercy not sacrifice. God wanted us to have mercy for the animals.
Of course we all saw that.
The point was that Jesus told us to judge by going back to the BEGINNING and by telling us that the wrong things being done were because of the hardness of human hearts.
It is arguable that Jesus never created any laws, and Jesus only told principles and ideals for us to reach for.
Neither Jesus or the Father God would not want people to stop eating meat as a commandment or as a law, but to do it because it is right and it is love and because we have mercy for the innocent and vulnerable animals who are defenseless against our violent brutality.
It is not about obeying the law - it is about doing right because we want to do right.
Know it all.
Shaman.
That is kind-of accurate except it leaves out a lot.
As in the verse above that one tells a little more in Genesis 9:2
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered." Link.
The animals use to be friendly and safe but now according to that verse 2 the animals are made to live in fear and dread of the barbaric humans - that is a part of the price paid for eating animals.
At first the animals did not fear mankind - but now they do because of our violence.
Also in the New Testament Jesus said a peculiar thing here = " He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Link Matthew 19:8.
Jesus tells us to look back to the BEGINNING to find the truth, and it was only because of the hardness of human hearts that things changed. In the beginning humans did not eat animals, but after sin and sinning took control then humans ate the animals and got divorces and it was NOT meant to be that way.
Sinners are allowed to eat animals, but a righteous person must go back to the beginning and stop it.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Out of curiosity, can you reference this in this context ?
Know it all.
Shaman.
I do not like the claim that God allows anything, because people do our sins regardless of what God allows.
Under that view of God allowing then God must allow world wars and little wars, God must allow rape and robberies and poverty and injustice and etc etc etc.
That is not accurate, see James 4 = "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
And James 2:10 = "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
====================================
I did that already, but here it is again:
In the New Testament Jesus said a peculiar thing here = " He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Link Matthew 19:8.
Jesus tells us to look back to the BEGINNING to find the truth, and it was only because of the hardness of human hearts that things changed. In the beginning humans did not eat animals, but after sin and sinning took control then humans ate the animals and got divorces and it was NOT meant to be that way.
Know it all.
Shaman.
That ignores the fact that Cain and Able came AFTER (after) the sin of Adam and Eve, and after the sinning began THEN (then) there was violence and defects in their children.Adam and Eve were not created to have children that competed with each other, but the life of sin had already infected the parents and their children.
It is true that the meat itself is just protein and the meat itself does not defile the person eating the meat.What defiles the person is that the meat contains the violence and the death of the animal, ye are eating death into thy mouth, and the meat contains the fear and pain from the animal which defiles the person.
The meat (the violence) goes into the body, and out of the person comes violence.
They do this with dogs when the trainers want the dogs to be more aggressive then they feed the dogs raw meat to inflame the wild side of the dogs.
This was the same reason back in the days of Greece and Rome as they wanted more aggressive soldiers so they fed them animal meat, and we know this because there are old Roman records which have complaints from the Roman soldiers who were farmers and they wanted vegetables instead of the meats.
That ignores the fact that Cain and Able came AFTER (after) the sin of Adam and Eve, and after the sinning began THEN (then) there was violence and defects in their children.Adam and Eve were not created to have children that competed with each other, but the life of sin had already infected the parents and their children.
I love the holy Qur'an and the message it is giving there is denouncing the murder of Able by Cain and yes that is the message.
It is a step in the right direction, but it is not the whole thing.
Both Abe Lincoln and Adolf Hitler were vegetarian, so that gives us some thing to consider.
Another point is do we really want to live by eating defenseless animals, or shall we live better than that?
I do not like people who turn vegetarian simply for their health and have no care or regard about the animals.
For their health seems just more selfishness to me, and they being vegetarian is a spiritual waste to them.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
sorry I missed, that-
I do take your point, but to say that asking Moses to look back at his past marriage... should also be applied to reverting to vegetarianism... I'd be lying if I said that sounded definitive!
was divorce ever explicitly condoned as eating meat was in Genesis 9:3?
Also would your interpretation apply to fish?
It really doesn't matter whether we like something or not. We need to always keep an open mind to the Bible's statements. Our desires and wishes could keep us from correctly understanding what it is telling us.
But, regarding God allowing things: Jehovah 'allowed,' i.e., 'let', Satan to test Job (Job 1:7-12; Job 2:2-6). He 'allows' = lets us to be tested, to a point. (1 Corinthians 10:13, "There has not any temptation caught you but such as is the lot of man. And God is faithful, who will not let you be tempted beyond your power, but with the temptation will also make the way out so that you may be able to stand it." - Byington)
in fact, God is "allowing" a lot, since the rebellion in Eden. But, allowing things to happen, if it's for a reason, is totally different than causing them.
Take care.
Know it all.
Shaman.
Moses created the writ of divorce for the people.
God did not want the people to get a divorce but the people did it anyway.
Here is the verse about divorce = Deuteronomy 24:1-3
I apply it to fish - certainly yes.
The fishes are living beings that have a right to their own life.
When pulling a fish with a fishing rod then the fish understands that they are being violently assaulted and that is why the fish fights back trying to save its own life from the humans who mean them harm.
We humans are the barbarians.