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Vegetarianism fights Global Warming

BSM1

What? Me worry?
So are you essentially saying that if we can't fix all the world's problems, we shouldn't even try?

The problem is that you are trying to solve problems that may or may not exist. Also your solution(s) may appear to be highly subjective and even self-serving. Maybe we should concentrate on real, substantive problems that lend themselves to level headed solutions.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Like global warming.

Perfect example. Global warming never existed (no one can tell you how much the globe warmed up) so there was never a solution. A bunch of folks jumped on this bandwagon for their own reasons and used this hoax to try to shame and control others. Even when faced with the truth these people still can't let it go; they simply came up with another fallacious and totally unprovable trouble to further their agendas, i.e. "climate change". Classic snake oil.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Perfect example. Global warming never existed (no one can tell you how much the globe warmed up) so there was never a solution. A bunch of folks jumped on this bandwagon for their own reasons and used this hoax to try to shame and control others. Even when faced with the truth these people still can't let it go; they simply came up with another fallacious and totally unprovable trouble to further their agendas, i.e. "climate change". Classic snake oil.
Somehow I doubt legions of universities, research insititutions, independent researchers, and government agencies from around the world are all in cahoots to spread such a "conspiracy."
And can't say how much it's warmed up? If that is so, then how come so many sources state a global mean increase of 1.4 degrees F? If it's a hoax, then why are just about all the record setting hottest years been from this millennium? Why does Glacier National Park have so few glaciers left? If it's not happening, then why are we seeing an clear upwards trend in global temperatures?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Somehow I doubt legions of universities, research insititutions, independent researchers, and government agencies from around the world are all in cahoots to spread such a "conspiracy."
And can't say how much it's warmed up? If that is so, then how come so many sources state a global mean increase of 1.4 degrees F? If it's a hoax, then why are just about all the record setting hottest years been from this millennium? Why does Glacier National Park have so few glaciers left? If it's not happening, then why are we seeing an clear upwards trend in global temperatures?


One simple question that no seems to be able to answer: How much did the "GLOBE" warm up during the global warming scare. Show some scientific proof, not some obscure modeling. And if this GW/CC is soooo prominent why is there not one scientist showing up on any news program or NatGeo (which works in the words "global warming" or climate change" in almost every show) show with just a scrap of proof positive that any of this is even happening. Please don't give me all this garbage about "concensus of scientist"; if there were the main stream news programs would be flooded with these guys.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One simple question that no seems to be able to answer: How much did the "GLOBE" warm up during the global warming scare. Show some scientific proof, not some obscure modeling. And if this GW/CC is soooo prominent why is there not one scientist showing up on any news program or NatGeo (which works in the words "global warming" or climate change" in almost every show) show with just a scrap of proof positive that any of this is even happening. Please don't give me all this garbage about "concensus of scientist"; if there were the main stream news programs would be flooded with these guys.
http://www.dw.com/en/polar-ice-sheets-melting-faster-than-ever/a-16432199
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
why is there not one scientist showing up on any news program or NatGeo (which works in the words "global warming" or climate change" in almost every show) show with just a scrap of proof positive that any of this is even happening.
They do, quiet often, rather regularly, and I don't see how you miss it or why it's relevant because scientists don't invest much time or effort into showing evidence of evolution, thermodynamics, or other things, and for the most part the pop-sci scientists are the main ones who are on talk shows, on the news, writing books for the layman, and putting energy and effort into so many things. The rest are mostly just doing research and writing/submitting articles. It can be and often is an isolated process, and it does tend to attract those who prefer working in isolation, implying that for a number of reasons getting on TV just isn't their thing or goal.
Please don't give me all this garbage about "concensus of scientist"
It's the "consensus of scientists" that life evolved from a single common ancestor. It's the "consent of scientists" that micro-organisms cause infections. The "consent of scientists" is pretty much the reason the process of peer-review exists and is cherished. Appeal to popularity is not really much of a debate, but we fall back on the ability to replicate results to cover for that. And with global warming, we see the same warming trends from multiple sources, we have the same satellite footage, we see the same melting of glaciers, and the same rising water levels. It is actually elementary Earth science that carbons become trapped in the atmosphere, and causes the solar rays the Earth is reflecting back out into space to be reflected back to the Earth. And we have sufficient evidence of the amount of carbons trapped in our atmosphere, and how much we are dumping into it. The only thing we don't have yet is a formula to determine how much of an increase in temperature is contributed per pound of carbon emissions.
if there were the main stream news programs would be flooded with these guys.
The main stream news doesn't cover many things, and sometimes they face legal challenges in covering certain things. We don't hear of rGBH on mainstream news, even though it's a rather nasty hormone for bovines and humans, the rise in heroine addiction has went largely ignored by mainstream news, but we do hear plenty of things about different viruses that are supposed to be a major issue and are going to make a bunch of people sick and kill off legions of Americans, even though those things never happen. Reliance on mainstream news is a terrible strategy for gaining knowledge and insights about the world. Seriously, a few years back, the mainstream news ran a front-page news story about a kid celebrating his 11th birthday on November 11th, 2011, or whatever age and date for a birthday (such as 10 years old on 10/10/10) that was shared by thousands, if not millions, of other kids and isn't really news.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It changes what you said because you accused us all being cowards because we won't have anything to do with it, and you said this to people who have had something to do with it. It changes what you said because it shows you blatant your broad-brushed painting is.


Yes, I did accuse you of being cowards. And if I weren't willing to face the knowledge or witness the conditions of your Chinese workers and still buy of the products, then I too, would be affecting cowardice. So what? What is your point? You are a coward. And hunting (if you care to read my points made earlier_) is another form of cowardice all its own the way we humans go about it. You're a coward - you can't avoid it. So just own it.

It is an answer, you just aren't seeing it. Your question is about on par with asking "how will the slaves feel with their newfound freedom?"
What you didn't answer is what the Chinese workers would feel if I told them I was no longer going to buy the product they work to produce. You ignored that point completely. I understand why. Do you?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
One of the many emotionally charged sermon rants of his that caused me to not be able to take him seriously.
And I can't really take you seriously either. All your "Are you sure I don't know better than you?" posts made with that ridiculous, enigmatic, cos-play hooded figure as your avatar. You seem like an intelligent guy, yet have succumbed to trying to portray yourself as some kind of character or persona.

And the above... right there - what I just did - is exactly what ALL of you have been doing. Decrying my points with completely UNRELATED GARBAGE. Likely because you realize that there is no defense you can give for the actions and irresponsibility we've been discussing without giving away the fact that you're not really all that responsible or caring or nice when it comes to this particular subject. Do you think it even matters one bit the replies you have given me? Anything at all? Of course not. I couldn't sigh loud enough to belabor this point. You have no jurisdiction here - no power. Your words are meaningless because you have specifically placed them in that category with your treatment of the subject matter.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One simple question that no seems to be able to answer: How much did the "GLOBE" warm up during the global warming scare. Show some scientific proof, not some obscure modeling. And if this GW/CC is soooo prominent why is there not one scientist showing up on any news program or NatGeo (which works in the words "global warming" or climate change" in almost every show) show with just a scrap of proof positive that any of this is even happening. Please don't give me all this garbage about "concensus of scientist"; if there were the main stream news programs would be flooded with these guys.
http://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-how-do-scientists-measure-global-temperature

"Scientific proof" is an oxymoron. Science doesn't prove things.
Why do you even proffer an opinion when you obviously know nothing of the subject or of science.

Network news is entertainment. They show what will sell most product for their advertisers. They do not show news that will cut into their owners' -- multinational corporations of oil companies, agribusiness, banking, &c -- profits.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One simple question that no seems to be able to answer: How much did the "GLOBE" warm up during the global warming scare. Show some scientific proof, not some obscure modeling. And if this GW/CC is soooo prominent why is there not one scientist showing up on any news program or NatGeo (which works in the words "global warming" or climate change" in almost every show) show with just a scrap of proof positive that any of this is even happening. Please don't give me all this garbage about "concensus of scientist"; if there were the main stream news programs would be flooded with these guys.
I suppose this is why you didn't think humans cause massive destruction to the environment.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You really have no idea how bad it gets, do you? People have been burnt alive from unsafe work conditions, develop horrible disorders and diseases from the things they inhale, and have even killed themselves to escape the exploitation.
Actually, don't slaughterhouse workers face similar conditions?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
They do, quiet often, rather regularly, and I don't see how you miss it or why it's relevant because scientists don't invest much time or effort into showing evidence of evolution, thermodynamics, or other things, and for the most part the pop-sci scientists are the main ones who are on talk shows, on the news, writing books for the layman, and putting energy and effort into so many things. The rest are mostly just doing research and writing/submitting articles. It can be and often is an isolated process, and it does tend to attract those who prefer working in isolation, implying that for a number of reasons getting on TV just isn't their thing or goal.

It's the "consensus of scientists" that life evolved from a single common ancestor. It's the "consent of scientists" that micro-organisms cause infections. The "consent of scientists" is pretty much the reason the process of peer-review exists and is cherished. Appeal to popularity is not really much of a debate, but we fall back on the ability to replicate results to cover for that. And with global warming, we see the same warming trends from multiple sources, we have the same satellite footage, we see the same melting of glaciers, and the same rising water levels. It is actually elementary Earth science that carbons become trapped in the atmosphere, and causes the solar rays the Earth is reflecting back out into space to be reflected back to the Earth. And we have sufficient evidence of the amount of carbons trapped in our atmosphere, and how much we are dumping into it. The only thing we don't have yet is a formula to determine how much of an increase in temperature is contributed per pound of carbon emissions.

The main stream news doesn't cover many things, and sometimes they face legal challenges in covering certain things. We don't hear of rGBH on mainstream news, even though it's a rather nasty hormone for bovines and humans, the rise in heroine addiction has went largely ignored by mainstream news, but we do hear plenty of things about different viruses that are supposed to be a major issue and are going to make a bunch of people sick and kill off legions of Americans, even though those things never happen. Reliance on mainstream news is a terrible strategy for gaining knowledge and insights about the world. Seriously, a few years back, the mainstream news ran a front-page news story about a kid celebrating his 11th birthday on November 11th, 2011, or whatever age and date for a birthday (such as 10 years old on 10/10/10) that was shared by thousands, if not millions, of other kids and isn't really news.


Don't you think that the end of the world would be a big enough story for any news media to cover? Seriously? If there were just an iota of proof that this hoax was real the news media would tripping all over themselves to get people in front of cameras.
How stupid do you think we are?
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think it has more to do with the hypocrisy of going on about vegetarianism and the treatment of animals and insisting people change their diets, but no mentioning anything about the abhorrent work conditions found throughout China, and not condemning people lined outside of an Apple store to buy the new iPhone (when they run out of phones, it is because the already severely overworked workers literally cannot produce them any faster). It's a group saying they care, but their solution of care is to put a band-aid on a festering wound that is gushing blood.
But isn't the thread on meat-eating and the significant problem it makes? I don't see any hypocrisy- we are not trying to be saints, but minimize harm.

Of course, it's a huge generalization to assume that vegans don't care about human rights violations. Many vegans are feminists, pro-equality in all forms, etc. After all, the real hypocrisy would be to only care about humans/animals and not the others. You and @lovesong have heard of tu quoque, right?
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
you realize that there is no defense you can give for the actions and irresponsibility we've been discussing without giving away the fact that you're not really all that responsible or caring or nice when it comes to this particular subject.
I'm not trying to cover anything up, in fact I said right from the beginning that the issue of factory farming is one I do not care about. You're the one trying to convince us to feel bad about it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Yes, I did accuse you of being cowards. And if I weren't willing to face the knowledge or witness the conditions of your Chinese workers and still buy of the products, then I too, would be affecting cowardice. So what? What is your point? You are a coward. And hunting (if you care to read my points made earlier_) is another form of cowardice all its own the way we humans go about it. You're a coward - you can't avoid it. So just own it.
You tell me to "own up" to being a "coward," but you are the one slinging insults. And what makes human hunting different? Spiders ensnare their prey in a web, cats (large and small) rely on stealth and sudden attacks, wolves rely on speed and numbers, alligators ambush their prey, eagles swoop down from the sky, and some sharks approach their prey from underneath the depths below. We, as humans, conceal ourselves as many other predatory species do, and then we attack. That's pretty much how we've always done it, with the main difference being going from sticks and stones to arrows to guns (even though bows are still widely used).
What you didn't answer is what the Chinese workers would feel if I told them I was no longer going to buy the product they work to produce. You ignored that point completely. I understand why. Do you?
How am I supposed to know how they would feel? But, nevertheless, it's still on par with "how will the slaves feel if we free them? How will they feel if we end their jobs?" The real question is, why don't we care?
Actually, don't slaughterhouse workers face similar conditions?
It depends on what country you are looking at. America has more regulations, so our workers here, though having the potential to work in some unnecessarily unsafe work environments, are generally not exposed to the same circumstances Chinese, Indonesian, or other such workers are exposed to.
But isn't the thread on meat-eating and the significant problem it makes? I don't see any hypocrisy- we are not trying to be saints, but minimize harm.
It is about meat eating, and it came up that going vegan doesn't address the real problems, and these real problems overlap and are a part of the severe exploitation we see in other nations - things that happen because we consume too much so we destroy the environment and exploit people to keep up with demand.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
And I can't really take you seriously either. All your "Are you sure I don't know better than you?" posts made with that ridiculous, enigmatic, cos-play hooded figure as your avatar. You seem like an intelligent guy, yet have succumbed to trying to portray yourself as some kind of character or persona.

And the above... right there - what I just did - is exactly what ALL of you have been doing. Decrying my points with completely UNRELATED GARBAGE. Likely because you realize that there is no defense you can give for the actions and irresponsibility we've been discussing without giving away the fact that you're not really all that responsible or caring or nice when it comes to this particular subject. Do you think it even matters one bit the replies you have given me? Anything at all? Of course not. I couldn't sigh loud enough to belabor this point. You have no jurisdiction here - no power. Your words are meaningless because you have specifically placed them in that category with your treatment of the subject matter.
your complete inability to have a rational discussion on this topic with out the emotionally fueled sermons makes it impossible to take you seriously.

I for one have no interest in sifting through the sermons just find out that you got yourself so caught up in your sermon you completely forgot to address the point of the post your sermon is in rely to.
And you whine about the alleged "unrelated garbage" of others?

I know that anything said you dislike/disagree with matters not one bit to you.
You are not the least bit interested in honest discourse.
You want to preach your sermons.

though I do have to admit....
Your hypocrisy has been most entertaining.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No.
I live in a farming community, & always have.
I'm just opining based upon experience & observation.
Again, here are the documented facts of the effects on the environment due to raising, using and slaughtering animals for human consumption. If ever come across any fact to the contrary, be sure to let us know:

Sustainability of plant-based diets: back to the future

Plant-based diets in comparison to diets rich in animal products are more sustainable because they use many fewer natural resources and are less taxing on the environment. Given the global population explosion and increase in wealth, there is an increased demand for foods of animal origin. Environmental data are rapidly accumulating on the unsustainability of current worldwide food consumption practices that are high in meat and dairy products. Natural nonrenewable resources are becoming scarce, and environmental degradation is rapidly increasing. At the current trends of food consumption and environmental changes, food security and food sustainability are on a collision course. Changing course (to avoid the collision) will require extreme downward shifts in meat and dairy consumption by large segments of the world's population. Other approaches such as food waste reduction and precision agriculture and/or other technological advances have to be simultaneously pursued; however, they are insufficient to make the global food system sustainable. For millennia, meatless diets have been advocated on the basis of values, and large segments of the world population have thrived on plant-based diets. “Going back” to plant-based diets worldwide seems to be a reasonable alternative for a sustainable future. Policies in favor of the global adoption of plant-based diets will simultaneously optimize the food supply, health, environmental, and social justice outcomes for the world's population. Implementing such nutrition policy is perhaps one of the most rational and moral paths for a sustainable future of the human race and other living creatures of the biosphere that we share.

[. . .]

Raising animals for human food is an intrinsically inefficient process. As we move up in the trophic chain there is a progressive loss of energy. Grass-fed livestock subsists, but this is not the main source of meat for human consumption in developed nations. Modern husbandry (animal farms) is based on intensive feeding of grain crops to animals (5). This grain could be a source of food for humans. The same standards apply to the production of other animal products such as eggs and dairy. Several authors have computed the efficiency ratios of animal compared with plant foods for human consumption. The amount of grain needed to produce the same amount of meat varies from a ratio of 2.3 for chicken to 13 for beef (Table 1). Pimentel and Pimentel (8) established that, on average, 11 times greater fossil energy is required to produce animal protein than plant protein for human consumption. However, the energy-to-protein efficiency ratio varies greatly by type of meat. More specifically, it is only 4 times greater for chicken protein compared with grain protein but 40 times greater for beef protein compared with grain protein. We have previously reported that the ratio for water used in the production of soy protein compared with the same quantity of animal protein is from 4 to 26 and showed that the ratio between soy protein and the different types of animal proteins varies from 6 to 20 for fossil fuel usage (9). The land required to raise the feed to produce animal protein is 6–17 times greater than for soy protein (9).Thus, the conversion of plant foods to foods of animal origin is an intrinsically inefficient process (~10:1).

[. . .]

The ratio of energy inputs to protein delivery is also qualitatively different for animal compared with plant foods. As the concentration of protein increases in plant foods, so does the efficiency. It does not change or may even decrease in animal protein sources (Figure 3) (10). High-protein plant foods such as soy beans and other legumes have greater protein delivery energy efficiency than cereals, which have a lower protein concentration. Therefore, less energy is needed to produce the same amount of protein from soy than from corn. However, very similar amounts of energy are used to produce equivalent amounts of protein from different sources of animal protein. In animal foods, the degree of protein concentration seems to decrease the efficiency ratio of energy inputs compared with protein outputs.​

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/100/Supplement_1/476S.long

Livestock’s Long Shadow, UN Food and Agricultural Organization

The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution and loss of biodiversity.

Livestock’s contribution to environmental problems is on a massive scale and its potential contribution to their solution is equally large. The impact is so significant that it needs to be addressed with urgency.

[. . . ]

Growing populations and incomes, along with changing food preferences, are rapidly increasing demand for livestock products, while globalization is boosting trade in livestock inputs and products. Global production of meat is projected to more than double from 229 million tonnes in 1999/01 to 465 million tonnes in 2050, and that of milk to grow from 580 to 1 043 million tonnes.

[. . . ]

Land degradation

The livestock sector is by far the single largest anthropogenic user of land. The total area occupied by grazing is equivalent to 26 percent of the ice-free terrestrial surface of the planet. In addition, the total area dedicated to feedcrop production amounts to 33 percent of total arable land. In all, livestock production accounts for 70 percent of all agricultural land and 30 percent of the land surface of the planet.

Expansion of livestock production is a key factor in deforestation, especially in Latin America where the greatest amount of deforestation is occurring -- 70 percent of previous forested land in the Amazon is occupied by pastures, and feedcrops cover a large part of the remainder. About 20 percent of the world’s pastures and rangelands, with 73 percent of rangelands in dry areas, have been degraded to some extent, mostly through overgrazing, compaction and erosion created by livestock action. The dry lands in particular are affected by these trends, as livestock are often the only source of livelihoods for the people living in these areas.

[. . .]

Atmosphere and climate

With rising temperatures, rising sea levels, melting icecaps and glaciers, shifting ocean currents and weather patterns, climate change is the most serious challenge facing the human race. The livestock sector is a major player, responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions measured in CO2 equivalent. This is a higher share than transport.

The livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of anthropogenic CO2 emissions. The largest share of this derives from land-use changes – especially deforestation – caused by expansion of pastures and arable land for feedcrops. Livestock are responsible for much larger shares of some gases with far higher potential to warm the atmosphere. The sector emits 37 percent of anthropogenic methane (with 23 times the global warming potential (GWP) of CO2) most of that from enteric fermentation by ruminants. It emits 65 percent of anthropogenic nitrous oxide (with 296 times the GWP of CO2), the great majority from manure. Livestock are also responsible for almost two-thirds (64 percent) of anthropogenic ammonia emissions, which contribute significantly to acid rain and acidification of ecosystems.

[. . . ]

Water

The world is moving towards increasing problems of freshwater shortage, scarcity and depletion, with 64 percent of the world’s population expected to live in water-stressed basins by 2025.

The livestock sector is a key player in increasing water use, accounting for over 8 percent of global human water use, mostly for the irrigation of feedcrops. It is probably the largest sectoral source of water pollution, contributing to eutrophication, “dead” zones in coastal areas, degradation of coral reefs, human health problems, emergence of antibiotic resistance and many others. The major sources of pollution are from animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and pesticides used for feedcrops, and sediments from eroded pastures. Global figures are not available but in the United States, with the world’s fourth largest land area, livestock are responsible for an estimated 55 percent of erosion and sediment, 37 percent of pesticide use, 50 percent of antibiotic use, and a third of the loads of nitrogen and phosphorus into freshwater resources.

Livestock also affect the replenishment of freshwater by compacting soil, reducing infiltration, degrading the banks of watercourses, drying up floodplains and lowering water tables. Livestock’s contribution to deforestation also increases runoff and reduces dry season flows.

[. . . ]

Biodiversity

We are in an era of unprecedented threats to biodiversity. The loss of species is estimated to be running 50 to 500 times higher than background rates found in the fossil record. Fifteen out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed to be in decline.

Livestock now account for about 20 percent of the total terrestrial animal biomass, and the 30 percent of the earth’s land surface that they now pre-empt was once habitat for wildlife. Indeed, the livestock sector may well be the leading player in the reduction of biodiversity, since it is the major driver of deforestation, as well as one of the leading drivers of land degradation, pollution, climate change,overfishing, sedimentation of coastal areas and facilitation of invasions by alien species. In addition, resource conflicts with pastoralists threaten species of wild predators and also protected areas close to pastures. Meanwhile in developed regions, especially Europe, pastures had become a location of diverse long-established types of ecosystem, many of which are now threatened by pasture abandonment.

Some 306 of the 825 terrestrial ecoregions identified by the Worldwide Fund for Nature (WWF) – ranged across all biomes and all biogeographical realms, reported livestock as one of the current threats. Conservation International has identified 35 global hotspots for biodiversity, characterized by exceptional levels of plant endemism and serious levels of habitat loss. Of these, 23 are reported to be affected by livestock production. An analysis of the authoritative World Conservation Union (IUCN) Red List of Threatened Species shows that most of the world’s threatened species are suffering habitat loss where livestock are a factor.​

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0701e/a0701e.pdf
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Plant-based diets in comparison to diets rich in animal products are more sustainable because they use many fewer natural resources and are less taxing on the environment.
If you notice, that doesn't say meat eating in general, but "diets rich in animal products:" It doesn't vegan/vegetarian, but "plant-based diets." And still it fails to mention that our farming practices, be it for plants or animals, are very wasteful and contribute excessive amounts of carbon emissions and resource consumption. Plant-based diets may be more sustainable, but it's really no different than getting rid of a car that gets 15 MPG to drive one that gets 30 MPG. It's making "less of an impact," but it does absolutely nothing to address the issue of being over dependent and reliant on fossil fuels. That is the core of the problem, and squeezing more miles out of a gallon of gas does nothing to even acknowledge it.
 
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