Vanderbilt Muslim chaplain advocated capital punishment for gay people.

[Fatihah]

I don't understand... How does it's truth conquer falsehood if you see it as corrupted? Isn't it, in fact, a falsehood in your eyes?

Response: In the eyes of muslims, including myself, some of the bible is false, some of it is true, and some of it is unreliable.

 

[Smoke]

Response: Not all of it. The important element is the principle that in islam, truth conquers falsehood. Thus the collection of hadiths by Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, because they are accepted by the majority. If it was false, then that means that the truth didn't conquer falsehood, but rather, the other way around. Falsehood can not be the majority in islam. Allah has made a promise so.

That's the same system the Roman Catholic Church has: "By definition, what we say must be the truth."

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: In the eyes of muslims, including myself, some of the bible is false, some of it is true, and some of it is unreliable.

That's great, but it doesn't address my question.

 

[Perfect Circle]

That's the same system the Roman Catholic Church has: "By definition, what we say must be the truth."

Exactly.

 

[elisheba]

The Hebrew Bible instructs capital punishment for homosexuality also. Strong warnings like this are because it is an unhealthy , destructive practice.. . . . even if there were no STDs - it is still damaging to the body.

 

[AxisMundi]

The Hebrew Bible instructs capital punishment for homosexuality also. Strong warnings like this are because it is an unhealthy , destructive practice.. . . . even if there were no STDs - it is still damaging to the body.

No, it isn't any more "destructive" than hetero sex.

 

[Fatihah]

That's great, but it doesn't address my question.

Response: I see differently.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Not every saying is preserved. However, what is preserved as sound and reliable is in fact sound and reliable.

How do you know?

 

[Fatihah]

How do you know?

Response: In the qur'an we read:

"Will they not, then meditate upon the qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Surah 4:82.

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our Servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers, beside Allah, if you are truthful". Surah 2:23.

Here we have two tests which confirms that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt). For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, confirming that it is not the work of man or any person for that matter. If you disagree, the challenge still stands. Find a discrepancy in the qur'an and produce a chapter like the qur'an.

Once established that such a task is impossible, we can use the facts of the qur'an to confirm that the hadith collection of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, as explained in post 94.

 

[Sahar]

How do you know which are authentic and which aren't?

The science of hadith is a very big story. There are specialists in this science who laid down certain criteria and conditions to accept a certain hadith as authentic.

The hadith consists of two basic elements; sanad and matn.

The sanad means the chain of narrators, which starts with the person who heard the hadith from the Prophet, then the person who heard from him and so on.
The matn is the actual wording that the Prophet said.
​

A Hadith must meet the following five criteria in order to be accepted in Islamic law as a source of legal ordinance:

1. Continuity of the chain of transmitters (ittisal assanad):

This chain of transmitters has to be unbroken in order for the Hadith to be acceptable. That is, none of the transmitters must be missing from the chain of narrators. Furthermore, each transmitter must also have heard the Hadith in question directly from the transmitter before him. Knowledge of this is verified with the help of the biographical sciences of the science of Hadith.

2. The integrity ('adalah) of the transmitters:

The integrity of the transmitters is established in terms of their out- ward observance of Islam. In other words, it is ascertained that they practice what is required of them by Islam and they are not known to engage in the doing of things which are forbidden. Again this precondition is verified through the biographical sciences of Hadith.

3. Soundness of memory of the transmitters:

It must be verified through the biographical sciences of Hadith that each transmitter has a sound memory or that his books were accurate and that he only transmitted directly from his books.

4. Conformity of the Hadith:

It is important that the Hadith conform with similar Hadiths on the same topics which are stronger than it. This conformity should be both in the chain of transmitters and the text. Non-conformity in the chain of transmit- ters for example, might be if one of the transmitters in the chain is differ- ent than in a stronger version of the same Hadith. Non-conformity in text would imply divergence in the meaning of this Hadith with one which is stronger.

5. The absence of defects ('illah) in the Hadith:

A defect ('illah) in Hadith is defined as a hidden defect in the Hadith which takes away from its authenticity. A Hadith which has such a defect is one which appears to be free from defect at first while after investiga- tion it is discovered that it has a certain defect which would not be apparent without investigation. The defect can be in the chain of transmitters or in text or both.

Based on this the hadith went into different classifications and levels.
The Classification Of Hadith:

1. According to the reference to a particular authority

2. According to the links in the isnad -- interrupted or uninterrupted

3. According to the number of reporters in each stage of the isnad

4. According to the manner in which the hadith is reported

5. According to the nature of the text and isnad

6. According to a hidden defect found in the isnad or text of a hadith

7. According to the reliability and memory of the reporters

With regards to its authenticity, it can be categorized into 5 types, 1) Sahih (authentic), 2) Hasan (sound), 3) Dha'eef (weak), 4) Dha'eef Jiddan (very weak), and 5) Mawdhoo (fabricated).

There is an important science called "Ilm al Rijal" (knowledge of men). It's concerned with the study of the narrators of the hadith; when they were born, died, where they traveled, their memory, their beliefs, how religious they were, their scholars...etc. It aims to classify the hadith and distinguish what's authentic from what's not.

Sources:
History of Sunnah: Brief overview of the history of the Sunnah, how it was transmitted and how it was preserved. Exposing lies about the Sunnah.
Hadith: Rules For Acceptance And Transmission
Q & A: Hadith Categories Based on Authenticity
Science Of Hadith

 

[Sahar]

Perfect Circle, you insisted on tackling this issue here. And I had to respond here. With my previous post, I aimed to give you (and anyone interested) a hint about the science of hadith.

I also hope that I didn't go into much detail and which a non Muslim might not be interested in. :rainbow1:

 

[Sahar]

didn't he?

He didn't.
Lava, writing down the hadith started by the companions of the prophet and in his presence and he didn't discourage them. The companions were keen on memorizing the hadith and some of them wrote it down. The collection of the hadith started before Al Bukhari. Yet, collection of Bukhari is remarkable because he laid down the most strict criteria to classify a hadith as authentic. That's why the scholars recognize Sahih Al Bukhari to be the most authentic after the Qur'an. After Sahih Al Bukhari, Sahih Muslim comes.

here you go;

first of all; Sahih Buhari, the person who wrote hadiths, was born in 810 (Hicri) which means between his birth and death of Prophet there is 178 years. he started writing and collecting hadiths when he was 18. so basicly it makes 196 years. there's no way he could have reached Aisha SA for instance, to confirm hadiths that's said by her. there is no way he could have reached anyone who actually talked to Prophet himself in person. that is a fact.

.

 

[Sahar]

Aren't you doing exactly what you criticize Christians and Jews of doing? Using a scripture that's rooted in truth but has been changed so many times over the centuries that's it essentially corrupt?

The fundamental Islamic sources such as the Qur'an and the core traditions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) have been fully preserved intact. This can be demonstrated easily by referring to the sound historical methodologies in verifying the sources.
​

There is a basic distinction between Islam and other religions in this regard: Islam is singularly unique among the world religions in the fact that in order to preserve the sources of their religion, the Muslims invented a scientific methodology based on precise rules for gathering data and verifying them.

As it has been said, " Isnad or documentation is part of Islamic religion, and if it had not been for isnad , everybody would have said whatever he wanted."

So, there is no comparison between the sources of Islam and those of other religions in this respect, as you will never find anything comparable to the many sciences Muslims invented for this noble task of preserving the sources of Islam. By virtue of such sciences, you can scrutinize and verify every report in the sources.

Thanks to these efforts, the Qur'an as well as the core tradition on which the Islamic faith and practices are based, have been fully protected.

In this context, it should be added that the process of recording Hadith started as early as the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Actually, many Companions recorded hadiths, and, `Abdullah ibn `Amr, for example, was permitted and even encouraged by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to write down Hadith. In addition, some 50 Companions and many Successors are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.

IslamOnline.net

 

[Sahar]

Is there really any need to haggle over terms?

Clergy merely indicates the religious leaders of a community.

:sarcastic
The term and its indication has no place in Islam.

There is no special group has a religious authority over the people. The religious authority is the authority of the Qur'an and the Sunnah and the authority of enjoing what's right and forbidding what's wrong which is given to every sane adult Muslim.

 

[.lava]

He didn't.
Lava, writing down the hadith started by the companions of the prophet and in his presence and he didn't discourage them. The companions were keen on memorizing the hadith and some of them wrote it down. The collection of the hadith started before Al Bukhari. Yet, collection of Bukhari is remarkable because he laid down the most strict criteria to classify a hadith as authentic. That's why the scholars recognize Sahih Al Bukhari to be the most authentic after the Qur'an. After Sahih Al Bukhari, Sahih Muslim comes.

i am not talking about writing down something Prophet said to memorize it or to remember it. i am talking about writing a hadith book



.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: In the qur'an we read:

"Will they not, then meditate upon the qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Surah 4:82.

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our Servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers, beside Allah, if you are truthful". Surah 2:23.

Here we have two tests which confirms that the qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt). For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, confirming that it is not the work of man or any person for that matter. If you disagree, the challenge still stands. Find a discrepancy in the qur'an and produce a chapter like the qur'an.

Once established that such a task is impossible, we can use the facts of the qur'an to confirm that the hadith collection of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, as explained in post 94.

Well, hundreds of people have done that, so that's boring.

And, (and I've explained this simple concept to you before, so you should be familiar with it) your argument is circular. Which means it's fallacious. Which means it's WRONG.

But in any case, that wasn't my question. My question was, how do you know the hadiths, recorded decades after they were allegedly spoken, record anything accurately?

 

[YmirGF]

Well, hundreds of people have done that, so that's boring.

And, (and I've explained this simple concept to you before, so you should be familiar with it) your argument is circular. Which means it's fallacious. Which means it's WRONG.

But in any case, that wasn't my question. My question was, how do you know the hadiths, recorded decades after they were allegedly spoken, record anything accurately?

They are based on the impeccability of their sources. In a sense, only those who were known for their good moral fibre and righteousness are quoted. IF several people of equal or similar esteem give similar accounts, the account is deemed to be authentic. Unless I am not reading the hadith science correct, of course. It is an example of consensus building, if anything. In effect, these noble personages stated such and such and other noble personages attest to the validity of their character which buttresses the given story in lieu of direct proof.

 

[Fatihah]

Well, hundreds of people have done that, so that's boring.

And, (and I've explained this simple concept to you before, so you should be familiar with it) your argument is circular. Which means it's fallacious. Which means it's WRONG.

But in any case, that wasn't my question. My question was, how do you know the hadiths, recorded decades after they were allegedly spoken, record anything accurately?

Response: You've explained this before. True. And as always, I've responded with the same response. (So you should be familiar with it). There's the statement. Where's the proof? You seem to think that saying so is proof that it is so. Thus the fact that you continue to do so just confirms the fact that you have no proof, thus confirming your denial.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Perfect Circle, you insisted on tackling this issue here. And I had to respond here. With my previous post, I aimed to give you (and anyone interested) a hint about the science of hadith.

I also hope that I didn't go into much detail and which a non Muslim might not be interested in. :rainbow1:

No, it wasn't too much detail at all. It helped a lot actually.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Homosexuality owns, sorry. Your texts seem to be a bit outdated on this issue.