Vanderbilt Muslim chaplain advocated capital punishment for gay people.

[Autodidact]

that's it. that's the only way to be a better Muslim (or a better person). if some religious person wants to help society be a better place, this is the direction. otherwise everyone fights mistakes of others. that's what makes people bigots, since their eyes are blind to their own sins and all they see is sins of others.

as i said before somewhere else...i don't know if there is a punishment for this Qur'an. but i asked about it before and i know it for sure, there is no death penalthy for gay people. also what people do in private is nobody's business to interfere. for that matter, i still could not figure out how come those young men who's killed by Iranian government were proven to be gay? i mean, how come it's proven?


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I can't frubal you right now but if I could I would have mentioned that the world needs more Muslims like you.

 

[Perfect Circle]

The main sources of Islamic legislation are the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the teachings) of the prophet Muhammad. It's also derived from analogical deduction of legal matters (qiyas) and the consensus of Islamic jurists.

The issue of the punishment of homosexuality is indeed debated between the scholars as I stated.
This will be explained as follows:

a) No legal punishment is stated in the Qur'an for homosexuality; all what is stated in this concern is the condemnation of committing it in the context of the story of Prophet Lot and the divine punishment his people received for committing such a hideous sin.

b)It is not reported that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) has punished somebody for committing homosexuality, a fact that Ibn Al-Qayyim has explained by saying that "this (sin) was not known among Arabs" during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

c) There is no authentic hadith reported from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) prescribing a punishment for the homosexuals. However, the Qur'anic description of homosexuality as a fahishah (Arabic for: abomination), which is the same description of zina (Arabic for: adultery or fornication), hints that both sins entail inflicting the same legal punishment.

d) Scholars of Islamic schools of jurisprudence have different views on the punishment to be inflicted for committing this sin: Some say that the punishment is the killing of the perpetrator, others say that it is the same as in the case of zina, and a third party are of the opinion that the judge may afflict a lower discretionary punishment, such as imprisonment.

Read more:IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Based on various hadiths and narrations, they conclude the punishment. Some of these ahadith were discussed in the above link.

Also From Dr Taha Jabir Al alwani's Fatwa:
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So, essentially, it comes down to sayings of the prophet that weren't recorded until centuries after his death that he specifically requested to not be recorded (i.e. Hadiths)? Beyond that, it's all inferred by Islamic scholars and clergy?

I'm sorry but this seems a little hypocritical to me. Isn't one of the strongest arguments for the validity of Islam that the Quran is the actual unchanged word of God as spoken through the prophet? If so, why use any other scripture? All you do is open the door to corruption. There's no standard, unchanged, protected volume of Hadiths like there is the Quran.

Aren't you doing exactly what you criticize Christians and Jews of doing? Using a scripture that's rooted in truth but has been changed so many times over the centuries that's it essentially corrupt?

 

[Sahar]

So, essentially, it comes down to sayings of the prophet that weren't recorded until centuries after his death that he specifically requested to not be recorded (i.e. Hadiths)?

He did?!

Beyond that, it's all inferred by Islamic scholars and clergy?

There is nothing called clergy in Islam.

I'm sorry but this seems a little hypocritical to me. Isn't one of the strongest arguments for the validity of Islam that the Quran is the actual unchanged word of God as spoken through the prophet? If so, why use any other scripture? All you do is open the door to corruption. There's no standard, unchanged, protected volume of Hadiths like there is the Quran.

Aren't you doing exactly what you criticize Christians and Jews of doing? Using a scripture that's rooted in truth but has been changed so many times over the centuries that's it essentially corrupt?

ًI don't get the resemblance. The Qur'an didn't change from its revelation until now.

Isn't one of the strongest arguments for the validity of Islam that the Quran is the actual unchanged word of God as spoken through the prophet?

Yes? And the Qur'an essentially orders us to follow the prophet and his example.
"What the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." (59:7)
And obey Allāh and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. Al-Imran

Perfect Circle, your argument is not new. The so called "Qur'anyoon" make the same argument and the replies to them are there, the evidence from the Qur'an itself is there.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543276
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/sunnah.asp
But I am afraid this is away from the topic at hand. The issue of the role of the Sunnah needs its own thread. I provided the links if you are interested. If you like to discuss or ask about it more, it's better to start a separate thread in Islam DIR or the debates section.

It seems also you're questioning the role of the Muslim scholars, right?

 

[Kerr]

I believe that who insist on deviating from the straight human nature openly and arrogantly challenge God's law and the Islamic society values deserves punishment. Otherwise, practice whatever you want inside your closed doors.

That is a very limiting line of thought.

 

[.lava]

He did?!

didn't he?

here you go;

first of all; Sahih Buhari, the person who wrote hadiths, was born in 810 (Hicri) which means between his birth and death of Prophet there is 178 years. he started writing and collecting hadiths when he was 18. so basicly it makes 196 years. there's no way he could have reached Aisha SA for instance, to confirm hadiths that's said by her. there is no way he could have reached anyone who actually talked to Prophet himself in person. that is a fact.

secondly, hadiths were not written by people who actually had chance to talk to people who saw and talked to Prophet himself in person. hadiths were not written by Sahaba after his death either. though every Muslim would take them as the greatest Muslims ever. what made them keep away from writing hadiths down? they had the original versions of everything he said but they did not write hadiths for a reason. please, don't ignore this facts


.

 

[Fatihah]

didn't he?

here you go;

first of all; Sahih Buhari, the person who wrote hadiths, was born in 810 (Hicri) which means between his birth and death of Prophet there is 178 years. he started writing and collecting hadiths when he was 18. so basicly it makes 196 years. there's no way he could have reached Aisha SA for instance, to confirm hadiths that's said by her. there is no way he could have reached anyone who actually talked to Prophet himself in person. that is a fact.

secondly, hadiths were not written by people who actually had chance to talk to people who saw and talked to Prophet himself in person. hadiths were not written by Sahaba after his death either. though every Muslim would take them as the greatest Muslims ever. what made them keep away from writing hadiths down? they had the original versions of everything he said but they did not write hadiths for a reason. please, don't ignore this facts


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Response: Dear sister, the Sahaba's did in fact write down the hadiths and it was passed on through oral transmission.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: Dear sister, the Sahaba's did in fact write down the hadiths and it was passed on through oral transmission.

You honestly think that entire volumes of sayings by the prophet were preserved in verbatim through an almost 2 century old oral tradition??

 

[Fatihah]

You honestly think that entire volumes of sayings by the prophet were preserved in verbatim through an almost 2 century old oral tradition??

Response: Not every saying is preserved. However, what is preserved as sound and reliable is in fact sound and reliable.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Not4me, Fati, how do you feel about the following Surah:

31:6 But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

Couldn't those "idle tales" be false Hadiths? Weren't the sayings of the prophet simply the sayings of a man? One who is fallible and subject to emotional swing the same as you and I? Shouldn't the only sayings of the prophet that should be revered be the ones that he was instructed by Allah to say?

 

[AxisMundi]

.....There is nothing called clergy in Islam......

Is there really any need to haggle over terms?

Clergy merely indicates the religious leaders of a community.

 

[Fatihah]

Not4me, Fati, how do you feel about the following Surah:

31:6 But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

Couldn't those "idle tales" be false Hadiths? Weren't the sayings of the prophet simply the sayings of a man? One who is fallible and subject to emotional swing the same as you and I? Shouldn't the only sayings of the prophet that should be revered be the ones that he was instructed by Allah to say?

Response: Not at all. In the qur'an we also read:

"O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end." Surah 4:59.

The verse clearly says to obey Allah and the Messenger. So even though there may be fabricated hadiths, there are also authentic ones. For the only way to obey the Messenger, Prophet Muhammad, is to have an authentic collection of hadiths which contains the sunnah(legal ways of the Prophet).

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: Not at all. In the qur'an we also read:

"O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end." Surah 4:59.

The verse clearly says to obey Allah and the Messenger. So even though there may be fabricated hadiths, there are also authentic ones. For the only way to obey the Messenger, Prophet Muhammad, is to have an authentic collection of hadiths which contains the sunnah(legal ways of the Prophet).

How do you know which are authentic and which aren't? Don't you open the door to corruption of the scriptures in the same way as the Christians or Jews?

 

[.lava]

Response: Dear sister, the Sahaba's did in fact write down the hadiths and it was passed on through oral transmission.

i don't know any hadith book that's written by people of Sahaba. there is book of Buhari who lived 176 years after Prophet SAW. besides, i am not claiming all sayings to be fabricated. fabricated ones are the ones that contradict with Qur'an; such as stoning to death punishment, killing people who commit adultery, starting any kind of man-hunt for that matter has no place in Islam


.

 

[Fatihah]

How do you know which are authentic and which aren't? Don't you open the door to corruption of the scriptures in the same way as the Christians or Jews?

Response: In the qur'an we also read:

"Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them, and He will, surely, establish from them their religion which He has chosen for them, and He will surely, give them in exchange security and peace after their fear. They will worship Me, and they will not associate things with Me. Then whoso disbelieves after that, they will be the rebellious." Surah 24:55.

Thus Allah has made a promise to make Successors on the earth to establish the truth of islam. We also read in the qur'an that truthhood will conquer falsehood. And when we add verse 4:59 as presented earlier which states to obey those who are in authority among you, we can conclude that the collection of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, for naturally, those who are Successors would have to be scholars. And since truth conquers falsehood and the collection of Bukhari and Muslim are acknowledged as the most authentic amongst the majority of muslims, then there collection must be true. For if it wasn't then that would mean that the truth didn't conquer falsehood (fabricated hadiths), which would make the qur'an be in error.

We also have a chain of narration in the hadith collection which leads all the way to Muhammad(saw). This also shows that the hadiths are authentic. However, since some may question the chain of narration, I have taken the time to show you from the qur'an itself that there are in fact a collection of authentic hadiths.

 

[Fatihah]

i don't know any hadith book that's written by people of Sahaba. there is book of Buhari who lived 176 years after Prophet SAW. besides, i am not claiming all sayings to be fabricated. fabricated ones are the ones that contradict with Qur'an; such as stoning to death punishment, killing people who commit adultery, starting any kind of man-hunt for that matter has no place in Islam


.

Response: Yes. Hadiths that contradict the are definately fabricated.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: In the qur'an we also read:

"Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them, and He will, surely, establish from them their religion which He has chosen for them, and He will surely, give them in exchange security and peace after their fear. They will worship Me, and they will not associate things with Me. Then whoso disbelieves after that, they will be the rebellious." Surah 24:55.

Thus Allah has made a promise to make Successors on the earth to establish the truth of islam. We also read in the qur'an that truthhood will conquer falsehood. And when we add verse 4:59 as presented earlier which states to obey those who are in authority among you, we can conclude that the collection of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, for naturally, those who are Successors would have to be scholars. And since truth conquers falsehood and the collection of Bukhari and Muslim are acknowledged as the most authentic amongst the majority of muslims, then there collection must be true. For if it wasn't then that would mean that the truth didn't conquer falsehood (fabricated hadiths), which would make the qur'an be in error.

We also have a chain of narration in the hadith collection which leads all the way to Muhammad(saw). This also shows that the hadiths are authentic. However, since some may question the chain of narration, I have taken the time to show you from the qur'an itself that there are in fact a collection of authentic hadiths.

So, to break this down, the Quran says that those who are good are rewarded by being succeeded on Earth. So the current Hadiths accepted by Muslim scholars must be the true ones because these scholars have retained authority and have been succeeded since the origin of the Hadiths? Is that the basic gist of it?

 

[Fatihah]

So, to break this down, the Quran says that those who are good are rewarded by being succeeded on Earth. So the current Hadiths accepted by Muslim scholars must be the true ones because these scholars have retained authority and have been succeeded since the origin of the Hadiths? Is that the basic gist of it?

Response: Not all of it. The important element is the principle that in islam, truth conquers falsehood. Thus the collection of hadiths by Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, because they are accepted by the majority. If it was false, then that means that the truth didn't conquer falsehood, but rather, the other way around. Falsehood can not be the majority in islam. Allah has made a promise so.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: Not all of it. The important element is the principle that in islam, truth conquers falsehood. Thus the collection of hadiths by Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, because they are accepted by the majority. If it was false, then that means that the truth didn't conquer falsehood, but rather, the other way around. Falsehood can not be the majority in islam. Allah has made a promise so.

So it's a democratic system then? If the majority of people accept it, it must be true, because of the concept of truth over falsehood?

If this is the case, then what about the Christian bible? Wouldn't it's truth have conquered it falsehoods?

 

[Fatihah]

So it's a democratic system then? If the majority of people accept it, it must be true, because of the concept of truth over falsehood?

If this is the case, then what about the Christian bible? Wouldn't it's truth have conquered it falsehoods?

Response: It is not a democratic system. It's a miraculous system, protected by Allah. Allah does not allow falsehood in islam overtake the truth in islam.

As for the christian bible, as muslims, we see the bible as a corrupted text. Thus the bible's truth can not be seen from the bible. It's truth can only be seen if it confirms with the qur'an. Thus it's truth does conquer falsehood.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Response: It is not a democratic system. It's a miraculous system, protected by Allah. Allah does not allow falsehood in islam overtake the truth in islam.

As for the christian bible, as muslims, we see the bible as a corrupted text. Thus the bible's truth can not be seen from the bible. It's truth can only be seen if it confirms with the qur'an. Thus it's truth does conquer falsehood.

I don't understand... How does it's truth conquer falsehood if you see it as corrupted? Isn't it, in fact, a falsehood in your eyes?