Unity in Submission to God’s Counsels.

[Mock Turtle]

I see it is possible and I see it will commence without religion, it will need to happen. The only thing I can add to that is that the way it needs to happen has already been given to us. So when humanity does commence the process, it will have to follow those guidelines, otherwise it will eventually break down and will not work.

Humanity has twice tried to foster a global peace based on National unities. First the League of Nations and secondly the United Nations. Both were founded on some of the Councels God has already given, but the mandates did not cover then all, thus they were always going to fall short of what they wanted to acheive.

This passage from Baha'u'llah contains a significant amount of Counsels that I see will ensure the peace and security of all humanity.

"...The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny.… The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.... That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."

(“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, pp. 249-250)

I think people can see the wisdom contained in that passage, the more the world tends towards conflict, the more that wisdom stands out.

Regards Tony

When the divisions between and ambitions within so many religions dissolves I might believe that change will come, but unfortunately we will still have the varieties of human life to deal with and as to their wants or needs. And our abilities to have suitable governance that isn't a threat to other nations or to the world we might want just seems so distant from when we first evolved as social creatures.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...I see you are missing that the world is yet to find unity, thus the passage quoted would indicate that as humanity we are not following those Counsels. It is not about the judgement of any individual Pete, so it is incorrect to steer the OP in that direction.

I am thinking it is the instructions required for the Lesser Peace, but many thoughts come to mind when one reads this link, especially in the sequence they are posted....

If we're looking at this w/ a western logic system then I'd have to ask you what would "unity" look like once the world found it. In that context we have to say that the world has found unity compared to what the world had when Baha'u'llah made his statement.

However, my thinking is that Baha'u'llah was speaking to the world and most of the world does not use western logic systems like you and I do. Most of the world thinks outside of space and time so when Baha'u'llah calls for unity the proper response is to see unity as being both achieved and unattainable at the same time. Of course that makes no sense in a western logic system w/ a before and after, but it makes perfect sense in a more romantic setting.

When you made your post I assumed you were thinking like a westerner, but perhaps I'll have to remember to be "bi-lingual" when it comes to how I think. I can say you're absolutely right in a "spiritual" sense, but not in any sense that's observable nor useful in our physical daily lives.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Yes, I think is what most people do.
I meant that if people only expect the good news they might be disappointed when they get bad news.

We're together on this, all the best to you.

 

[Kenny]

That's it, to me, plain and simple it is a No.

I see the peace and security of humanity is unattainable, unless and until Unity is firmly established and that unity is not possible while humanity as a majority do not follow the Counsels given by God.

All faiths given of God, do have Counsels given of God, so what are they?

I think the one to start with is Love as in John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

"Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship . . . This goal excelleth every other goal, and this aspiration is the monarch of all aspirations." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Please discuss in the light that is Love.

Regards Tony

There are different ways to address this...

To be in perfect unity, all hearts have to be melded into one of love. That part is impossible since not everyone loves.

We can see in the Tower of Babel that even those who have there own agendas can come into complete unity but it was about self promotion and not love.

In our faith, until Jesus is Lord of all in His second coming, it will be an impossibility. In the Jewish faith, again, not achievable until the Messiah comes.

 

[CG Didymus]

There are different ways to address this...

To be in perfect unity, all hearts have to be melded into one of love. That part is impossible since not everyone loves.

We can see in the Tower of Babel that even those who have there own agendas can come into complete unity but it was about self promotion and not love.

In our faith, until Jesus is Lord of all in His second coming, it will be an impossibility. In the Jewish faith, again, not achievable until the Messiah comes.

But Baha'is believe "Christ" has come. The Baha'is here on this thread believe their prophet is the return of Christ in a new body and with a new name. So, the things he has said are, for them, from God and will work and will someday be implemented.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see it is possible and I see it will commence without religion, it will need to happen. The only thing I can add to that is that the way it needs to happen has already been given to us. So when humanity does commence the process, it will have to follow those guidelines, otherwise it will eventually break down and will not work.

How far can peace and unity get without those "guidelines" from Baha'u'llah? Baha'is believe that all the nations of the world will unite and form what Baha'is call the "lessor" peace. But doesn't the Baha'i Faith already spell out guidelines on what the nations have to do to even attain that? Like disarm and create a World Tribunal?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If we're looking at this w/ a western logic system then I'd have to ask you what would "unity" look like once the world found it. In that context we have to say that the world has found unity compared to what the world had when Baha'u'llah made his statement.

However, my thinking is that Baha'u'llah was speaking to the world and most of the world does not use western logic systems like you and I do. Most of the world thinks outside of space and time so when Baha'u'llah calls for unity the proper response is to see unity as being both achieved and unattainable at the same time. Of course that makes no sense in a western logic system w/ a before and after, but it makes perfect sense in a more romantic setting.

When you made your post I assumed you were thinking like a westerner, but perhaps I'll have to remember to be "bi-lingual" when it comes to how I think. I can say you're absolutely right in a "spiritual" sense, but not in any sense that's observable nor useful in our physical daily lives.

I see we have to drop eastern amd western comparisons. We are one human race drawing from the same human spirit, which is sustained by the One Holy Spirit. On the other hand we have to embrace the diversity f thought that spans cultures.

Is not the Baha'i community supposed to be an example of what unity can achieve, at this time and embryo of what it can become?

I see a very different world ahead, this civilisation has run its course, a fair warning given. I see a decentralised system of communities will be built that will he assisted by technology that does not require us to live like lumpy porridge, millions in large cities and very few in the country.

There is a lot of change to come. I see Australia will and needs to face great change.

I see so much change required in my own self.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There are different ways to address this...

To be in perfect unity, all hearts have to be melded into one of love. That part is impossible since not everyone loves.

We can see in the Tower of Babel that even those who have there own agendas can come into complete unity but it was about self promotion and not love.

In our faith, until Jesus is Lord of all in His second coming, it will be an impossibility. In the Jewish faith, again, not achievable until the Messiah comes.

Maybe we only have to be concerned with our own self and actions! To live a life that projects the change.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How far can peace and unity get without those "guidelines" from Baha'u'llah? Baha'is believe that all the nations of the world will unite and form what Baha'is call the "lessor" peace. But doesn't the Baha'i Faith already spell out guidelines on what the nations have to do to even attain that? Like disarm and create a World Tribunal?

That is how the Word of God works, the way history has shown us it works.

The Message given is the standard required for the age. Thus minds can tap into that standard, even if they are unaware of the source, change is inevitable.

This is why when you have a True Messenger, there are also many false, as they have tapped into Word given, unaware of the source.

I see William Miller was such a person, but he did not claim divinity. There have been many that have claimed divinity, unaware that the Word was given by Baha'u'llah.

Some look for and find the source and are born again, some stumble upon it and embrace it, some see the wisdom, but choose not to be part of it. It is a gift.

Regards Tony

 

[Kenny]

But Baha'is believe "Christ" has come. The Baha'is here on this thread believe their prophet is the return of Christ in a new body and with a new name. So, the things he has said are, for them, from God and will work and will someday be implemented.

Thanks for the update. I guess it still remains that unity will not be accomplished at this time.

 

[Kenny]

Maybe we only have to be concerned with our own self and actions! To live a life that projects the change.

Regards Tony

Good point!!

Taking the log out of our own eyes is the best beginning and and affects others in a positive fashion

 

[Bthoth]

Just like the writing of the commandments, the torah and bible................ mankind will fulfill by combining the knowledge of mankind.

 

[Link]

One of the central messages of Quran and the family of Mohammad (s) is that the world will never be fixed without a leader from God. That it's a requirement for justice and well being of society to submit to the leader from God.

Per Shiite hadiths (and Quran I would say), God has always provided a Guide, so if society ever got together and say, let's follow God's Guide on earth, there would be one.

I don't believe the world will be fully united in love, dignity and justice, without relying on God in terms of leadership and looking to God's choice.

However, in the mean time, we do what can be done to maintain order, peace, and justice as much as possible.

I already showed that uniting as much as possible on what we agree upon and not disputing concerning what we disagree about, is the message of Quran. However, truth and it's prevalence will be needed for true harmony and unity that mankind is meant for.

There are layers of unity, Quran advocates for all of them.

 

[Ella S.]

Unity is simply not possible with human nature. We will always have disagreements and conflicts, even over larger questions. If there was a God who was more active in the world, they would become little more than another dictator, albeit one who could support their totalitarian demands with supernatural shows of force.

Under such a dictatorship, people might publicly pretend to agree. In private, they wouldn't. An omniscient God might know this and give a surveillance state that would put North Korea to shame, and that's essentially how Heaven is described in the hadiths and the Tanakh, but there would still be a variety of conscientious objectors. The solution to that is to simply re-home everyone who disagrees by either destroying them or locking them away in some metaphysical prison.

If you do that, then, yeah, I guess you can achieve unity. Depending on what you want people to be unified on, the resulting population could be quite small if you're strict about your criteria. Maybe that's why some people believe that only around 144k people are getting into Heaven.

I do not desire such a unity. I think, if God desires unity, then all that tells us is that God is a sadist who delights in forcing those weaker than him into absolute submission. The proof is in the pudding on that one. Look at any religious institution that claims to operate as God's spokesmen on earth and you will find the same quasi-totalitarian sadism in its highest ranks. Is that really something any of us wants?

We only want unity when it means forcing everyone else to agree with us, and therefore we project ourselves onto the image of God. "Unity" is just a juvenile power fantasy, in my opinion. We're better off without it. War is better than subjugation.

 

[Ella S.]

I can't count how many times I've thought of this cartoon while reading posts from our Baha'i members:

Interestingly, I think the group that's come the closest to actually doing this is the Theosophy/New Age community, because there are people in that community from a wide variety of religious backgrounds from Judaism to Islam to Hinduism to Buddhism to Paganism, etc. Part of that is because they openly embrace eclecticism and a degree of subjectivism. A lot of New Age communities have mastered the art of agreeing to disagree.

I find that fascinating. I also find it a little concerning, because their unity is often found through caring about validating people's experiences more than finding the truth. Still, I think it goes to show that diversity tends to be more stable and more effective than unity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unity is simply not possible with human nature. We will always have disagreements and conflicts, even over larger questions. If there was a God who was more active in the world, they would become little more than another dictator, albeit one who could support their totalitarian demands with supernatural shows of force.

Under such a dictatorship, people might publicly pretend to agree. In private, they wouldn't. An omniscient God might know this and give a surveillance state that would put North Korea to shame, and that's essentially how Heaven is described in the hadiths and the Tanakh, but there would still be a variety of conscientious objectors. The solution to that is to simply re-home everyone who disagrees by either destroying them or locking them away in some metaphysical prison.

If you do that, then, yeah, I guess you can achieve unity. Depending on what you want people to be unified on, the resulting population could be quite small if you're strict about your criteria. Maybe that's why some people believe that only around 144k people are getting into Heaven.

I do not desire such a unity. I think, if God desires unity, then all that tells us is that God is a sadist who delights in forcing those weaker than him into absolute submission. The proof is in the pudding on that one. Look at any religious institution that claims to operate as God's spokesmen on earth and you will find the same quasi-totalitarian sadism in its highest ranks. Is that really something any of us wants?

We only want unity when it means forcing everyone else to agree with us, and therefore we project ourselves onto the image of God. "Unity" is just a juvenile power fantasy, in my opinion. We're better off without it. War is better than subjugation.

We may think Liberty is allowing each individual to do whatever they choose, but that may actually feed anarchy and I think that is becoming obvious now. Community is only build on our ability to sacrifice ourselves and time in assisting others

So, It could very well be that we will find true liberty in submission unto God's Counsels

That submission requires just and honest rulers. I see dictatorships are dying out. Governments elected by the people will be required. A complexity indeed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Interestingly, I think the group that's come the closest to actually doing this is the Theosophy/New Age community, because there are people in that community from a wide variety of religious backgrounds from Judaism to Islam to Hinduism to Buddhism to Paganism, etc. Part of that is because they openly embrace eclecticism and a degree of subjectivism. A lot of New Age communities have mastered the art of agreeing to disagree.

I find that fascinating. I also find it a little concerning, because their unity is often found through caring about validating people's experiences more than finding the truth. Still, I think it goes to show that diversity tends to be more stable and more effective than unity.

The catch phrases would be "Unity in Diversity".

So how do we build that?

Regards Tony

 

[Ella S.]

We may think Liberty is allowing each individual to do whatever they choose, but that may actually feed anarchy and I think that is becoming obvious now. Community is only build on our ability to sacrifice ourselves and time in assisting others

So, It could very well be that we will find true liberty in submission unto God's Counsels

That submission requires just and honest rulers. I see dictatorships are dying out. Governments elected by the people will be required. A complexity indeed.

Regards Tony

I am an anarchist. I think "just ruler" is an oxymoron.

Even if anarchy were chaos, which I don't believe it is, that chaos would still be preferable to the so-called "order" (i.e., subjugation) found under rulers. I think most people think rulers are necessary because rulers have fooled us into believing that we "have" to give them power over us. I don't think we need to do any such thing.

But that's a different debate. I doubt we'll get anywhere on that subject here. The majority of people in the world have been brainwashed into believing the myth of just rulership, and not just the religious. It's an uphill battle to argue against and I'm not really interested in hashing it out. I just thought I'd make my position on the matter clear.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for the update. I guess it still remains that unity will not be accomplished at this time.

Maybe the Baha'i Faith is true, maybe not. But one thing I ask them is that where in the prophesies of any religion does the Promised One come, get thrown in prison, then exiled to Palestine and dies there.

As far as I know, when the Messiah, Jesus or whoever the other Promised Ones are, they fix things. So, if the Baha'i Faith is true, then a lot of prophecies are very wrong and misleading. One I mention a lot is the one about there being wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Well, Baha'u'llah came and died and there's been two world wars and several smaller wars.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe the Baha'i Faith is true, maybe not. But one thing I ask them is that where in the prophesies of any religion does the Promised One come, get thrown in prison, then exiled to Palestine and dies there.

I am sure there are other prophecies but here is one:

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

• Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Let's look at some more prophecies in Isaiah 53. These prophecies cannot be about Jesus since Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death, Jesus' days were not prolonged, they were cut short, and Jesus did not see His seed.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

• Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

• Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
• “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
• The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.
• Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
• These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

As far as I know, when the Messiah, Jesus or whoever the other Promised Ones are, they fix things.

No, absolutely not. Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that the Messiah/Promised One will come and FIX THINGS.

The Bible says that certain things will happen after the Messiah comes but it does not say that the Messiah will do those things Himself.
This is all made up gobbledygook based upon what Jews and Christians want to believe about the Messiah.

So, if the Baha'i Faith is true, then a lot of prophecies are very wrong and misleading. One I mention a lot is the one about there being wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Well, Baha'u'llah came and died and there's been two world wars and several smaller wars.

The first question that needs to be answered is -- the end of what?

I have 3 pages of Bible translations that say end of the age and only a little over 2 pages that say end of the world or something that means the world will end.

Matthew 24:3

KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

KJ21
And as He sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the world?”

NKJV
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

ESV
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

NASB
And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

NIV
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? -- That would mean that the world will end when Christ returns.
the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” -- That would mean that the age will end when Christ returns.

Baha'is believe that when Christ returned in the person of Baha'u'llah it was the end of the age, because the age of prophecy ended and in the age of fulfillment of prophecy began.

Now let's look at your favorite verses.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

These verses describe what happened around the time that Baha'u'llah came (as a sign of His coming) and after He came.
The rumors of wars were heard before Baha'u'llah came, as a sign of His coming.
Actual wars, where nation arose against nation (WWI and WWII), as well as famines, pestilences, and earthquakes have happened since Baha'u'llah came.

This took a lot of work, but it was worth all the work if I straightened this out for you once and for all.

I now rest my case.