Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Subduction Zone]

I seriously doubt that lowering the level will make any difference.

That is true. He is almost certainly a victim of severe indoctrination.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree for many things I cannot prove (e.g. miricales) I live by faith in the witnesses of the scriptures. On the other hand, you have not demonstrated your belief as fact either so I guess in a way, we both live by faith for which we will all know who is right and who is wrong soon enough. According to the sciptures though, IMO, I would not want to be on the otherside of the fence if what the scriptures say are true. At the end of the day, my friend I have peace in what I believe, how about you if you cannot prove there is no God? Haven't you ever wondered what is the meaning of life and that maybe there is more to life then eating, sleeping and dying? Then if you cannot prove what you believe then there is simply the possibility that you are wrong. Does this not worry you? According to the scriptures it should IMO, though we are all free to believe as we wish. I hope only the best for you and wish you well. Nice talking to you.

No, as explained before, faith is your weakness.

Do you think that you can debate rationally and honestly? That means that you cannot make posts like you just made. If you cannot understand your error then you should at the very least not jump to false conclusions.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thanks for bringing the Freemasons into the discussion. My father was a member and became the grandmaster of his lodge. However he never really talked about it. They don’t advertise or approach people to join, not even family members. It is really a part of what used to be called the old boys network. Their main focus was charitable works and to join you had to have good character and swear an oath of allegiance on whatever Sacred writings was part of your faith. However one of the rules was never talk religion or politics. They didn’t consider themselves a religion yet were open to admitting people of any of the main religious faiths. Their secrecy led to all sorts of conspiracy theories. The only criticism I have of the organisation is that it doesn’t admit women.

There’s this idea in the JWs of going back to pure Christianity. I don’t think it works because the nature of religion is that some of the original teachings are for a period of time. Some Mosaic and Sharia laws are the best examples.

Secrecy usually leads to conspiracy theories. It happened with the Jews especially because they kept to themselves, hence the pogroms against them.

There are lots of theories that the freemasons are evil and such. There is lots of evidence showing that they have influence around the world, such as the whole city of Washington DC, in which it was founded by Freemasons like Albert Pike, but they dont seem like a sinister force. I agree with a lot of what they say and it seems that they just want to make the world a better place.

As far as I know they accept women (I might be wrong). Helena Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society, is said to be one. But apparently the Masons have had a complex relationship with women in their society. I think whether they are allowed in or not is dependent on the lodge:

Freemasonry and women - Wikipedia

Its too bad they are so secretive. But I can imagine that the reason why is because they expect people to work to attain knowledge, which is why their admission is based on the rites of the Mystery religions.

The idea the JWs have of going back to pure Christianity makes sense from a biblical perspective, as straying from pure worship is following human tradition rather than man and thus defying God. But that pure worship is in regards to morality, ritual and belief only to a certain extent. Because they believe that they will gradually inmprove in understanding they do revise beliefs. They base their organisation policies and rules on bible principles, so the more understanding they get about principles the further they will change their rules. When it comes to scripture interpretation and how they evangelise there are addons and they have to consider modern society and improvements in technology and adapt accordingly.

It is the nature of religions to evolve though because of the improvement in our views of morality and cultural and mythical influence.

 

[Audie]

Ok gents nice talking with you both. There is no point though hanging around here IMO with all the ad hom and false accusations going around at the moment. Let me know when you would like an honest discussion. Untill then have fun. I only wish you all the best.

Dont let the door hit you on the way out

 

[sooda]

Secrecy usually leads to conspiracy theories. It happened with the Jews especially because they kept to themselves, hence the pogroms against them.

There are lots of theories that the freemasons are evil and such. There is lots of evidence showing that they have influence around the world, such as the whole city of Washington DC, in which it was founded by Freemasons like Albert Pike, but they dont seem like a sinister force. I agree with a lot of what they say and it seems that they just want to make the world a better place.

As far as I know they accept women (I might be wrong). Helena Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society, is said to be one. But apparently the Masons have had a complex relationship with women in their society. I think whether they are allowed in or not is dependent on the lodge:

Freemasonry and women - Wikipedia

Its too bad they are so secretive. But I can imagine that the reason why is because they expect people to work to attain knowledge, which is why their admission is based on the rites of the Mystery religions.

The idea the JWs have of going back to pure Christianity makes sense from a biblical perspective, as straying from pure worship is following human tradition rather than man and thus defying God. But that pure worship is in regards to morality, ritual and belief only to a certain extent. Because they believe that they will gradually inmprove in understanding they do revise beliefs. They base their organisation policies and rules on bible principles, so the more understanding they get about principles the further they will change their rules. When it comes to scripture interpretation and how they evangelise there are addons and they have to consider modern society and improvements in technology and adapt accordingly.

It is the nature of religions to evolve though because of the improvement in our views of morality and cultural and mythical influence.

I have many Masons in my family for several
generations. They aren't sinister. They are involved in service in their communities.

Their wives are Eastern Star.

 

[Audie]

I have many Masons in my family for several
generations. They aren't sinister. They are involved in service in their communities.

Their wives are Eastern Star.

Honestly, people who think Masons or Jews or or or
are somehow sinister are the ones who are sinister.

(have you seen any of the anti chinese / japanese
propaganda posters or cartoons from years gone by?)

anti asian cartoon - Google Search

 

[sooda]

Honestly, people who think Masons or Jews or or or
are somehow sinister are the ones who are sinister.

(have you seen any of the anti chinese / japanese
propaganda posters or cartoons from years gone by?)

anti asian cartoon - Google Search

Yes, I have seen them.. Pretty shameful..

 

[Audie]

Yes, I have seen them.. Pretty shameful..

Some people find it necessary to find ways to put others
down that they may be raised.

The OP is an announcement that he is superior to
other people, because "god" makes him so.

Certainly nothing in education or deportment does.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have many Masons in my family for several
generations. They aren't sinister. They are involved in service in their communities.

Their wives are Eastern Star.

I think masons are awesome. Their ideals are inspiring. Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike has one of the most inspirational openings to a book I have ever read because I fully agree with his points.

What is Eastern Star?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Honestly, people who think Masons or Jews or or or
are somehow sinister are the ones who are sinister.

(have you seen any of the anti chinese / japanese
propaganda posters or cartoons from years gone by?)

anti asian cartoon - Google Search

It is because people are superstitious and want to blame others for what is going wrong in their lives. And the conspiracy theories about the Masons and Jews is largely driven by a few Christians because the Masons have too much influence in society and the Jews were thought to have started the Black Death.

Propoganda was rife in the past, especially during war times. It is used to dehumanise the enemy. Everybody thinks that Japan is awesome now though. If there was ever a God then he used the Japanese to bless us with Nintendo.

 

[Audie]

It is because people are superstitious and want to blame others for what is going wrong in their lives. And the conspiracy theories about the Masons and Jews is largely driven by a few Christians because the Masons have too much influence in society and the Jews were thought to have started the Black Death.

Propoganda was rife in the past, especially during war times. It is used to dehumanise the enemy. Everybody thinks that Japan is awesome now though. If there was ever a God then he used the Japanese to bless us with Nintendo.

As recently posted elsewhere..anti asian cartoon - Google Search

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok gents nice talking with you both. There is no point though hanging around here IMO with all the ad hom and false accusations going around at the moment. Let me know when you would like an honest discussion. Untill then have fun. I only wish you all the best.

Yet you could not name any when challenged. If you did not use terms improperly we might actually get somewhere in a discussion.

 

[sooda]

I think masons are awesome. Their ideals are inspiring. Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike has one of the most inspirational openings to a book I have ever read because I fully agree with his points.

What is Eastern Star?

@ Rival

Well they set their religious differences aside to serve the community.. and some of that is real humble, basic stuff like repairing a widow's roof or making sure she has firewood.... sending her a bushel of pears.

Christians can be very stupid and territorial.. With Methodists dissing Baptists or Lutherans.. or Baptists dissing Catholics.

This same conversation came up this morning with two friends.. one is a Catholic turned Buddhist and the other a Jew. It seems that a Christian told my Buddhist friend she should not live in the neighborhood.. and the Jewish girl was told she's not "Jewish enough"..

Idiots. Yeah, I stand by "idiots".

 

[Samael_Khan]

@ Rival

Well they set their religious differences aside to serve the community.. and some of that is real humble, basic stuff like repairing a widow's roof or making sure she has firewood.... sending her a bushel of pears.

Christians can be very stupid and territorial.. With Methodists dissing Baptists or Lutherans.. or Baptists dissing Catholics.

This same conversation came up this morning with two friends.. one is a Catholic turned Buddhist and the other a Jew. It seems that a Christian told my Buddhist friend she should not live in the neighborhood.. and the Jewish girl was told she's not "Jewish enough"..

Idiots. Yeah, I stand by "idiots".

I think that the difference is that the Freemasons see all religions as teaching the same thing at their core. This is because they don't take the religions literally but rather as symbolic.

Many Christians on the other end do not have this viewpoint. So they believe that there is only one religion with one truth and often they can't decide the specifics of that truth. Christian groups can be very tribal. And that tribalism is usually accompanied by ignorance. And all this drama over a religion that they cannot even prove is true...

 

[sojourner]

I found an explanation of a similar line of thinking in a Freemason book I read.

The scenario I am thinking of is what Freemasons consider pure Freemasonry and spurious freemasonry. Freemasons central belief is that there is one God and all of us have an immortal soul.

They consider ancient Judaism to be the pure form of worship and i think they consider Christianity the same. I think they consider Islam in that category too. Those are the pure freemasonry religions as outrightly teach the one God and the immortalitu of the soul (suspect in Judaisms case). The symbolic rituals are to keep them pure.

The other religions they consider as teaching the truth about God and the Immortal soul, but the public persecuted the founders for teaching the truth so the truth had to be revealed in the mystery groups of those religions, in which initiates had to undergo initiations to have the truth about the one God revealed to them. The lay people were taught about the true God through Polytheism by the use of symbology. The immortal soul teaching was preserved. So for instance the gods of hinduism are said to be personifacations of the attributes of the one God. This is spurious freemasonry.

So monotheism teaches the truth directly whereas the other religions teach the truth symbolically and the differences in each religion is because the public couldnt handle the truth and had to be taught aspects of the truth through other means. The religions had to be adapted to what appealed to them and only the amount of truth they could handle.

I read this in Symbols of Freemasonry by Mackey (cant remember his initials).

Freemasonry is another group that I study and they ideas are fascinating. But it seems like what they believe as to how this all came about is that humanity went astray in worship and a few people were chosen by God to remain pure and the others taught the truth gradually.

Replace term "freemasonry" with the "true faith" and I think you have an example of how all the religions tie together if manifestations revealed each of them.

Not quite correct. In order to understand Albert Mackey, you really do have to be a Freemason, because what he writes is based on the tenets of the fraternity (which are not known by those who are not Masons). There really is no way to “study” Freemasonry without being a member, because much is not written, and the tenets are more incarnational than they are just ideas and philosophies. They have to do more with relationships of one brother to another, and how we relate to the world.

FYI, no true Masonic body initiates women. There’s a reason for that, but you’d have to join to find out. Freemasonry isn’t a religion and isn’t based upon religion.
But we digress.

 

[sojourner]

@ Rival

Well they set their religious differences aside to serve the community.. and some of that is real humble, basic stuff like repairing a widow's roof or making sure she has firewood.... sending her a bushel of pears.

Christians can be very stupid and territorial.. With Methodists dissing Baptists or Lutherans.. or Baptists dissing Catholics.

This same conversation came up this morning with two friends.. one is a Catholic turned Buddhist and the other a Jew. It seems that a Christian told my Buddhist friend she should not live in the neighborhood.. and the Jewish girl was told she's not "Jewish enough"..

Idiots. Yeah, I stand by "idiots".

Yeah, I’ve been told by someone here that I can’t be a real Christian because I embrace shamanic practices, and shamanic practices “go against God.”

 

[sojourner]

Folks, none of this passage is about the Bible. Here’s the passage in context:

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 13 And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

This about understanding spiritual gifts — not about understanding the texts. The OP is basing the premise on this text; he’s proof-texting the wrong text, misrepresenting what Paul is saying, and using that as leverage to say that unless one has some specific “belief,” one can’t understand the texts. Which is incorrect.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Not quite correct. In order to understand Albert Mackey, you really do have to be a Freemason, because what he writes is based on the tenets of the fraternity (which are not known by those who are not Masons). There really is no way to “study” Freemasonry without being a member, because much is not written, and the tenets are more incarnational than they are just ideas and philosophies. They have to do more with relationships of one brother to another, and how we relate to the world.

FYI, no true Masonic body initiates women. There’s a reason for that, but you’d have to join to find out. Freemasonry isn’t a religion and isn’t based upon religion.
But we digress.

I understand that. Because there is what is written versus what is the culture of the group, which is unwritten. Many religions are like that as well because there is a nuance in language and culture that only members will understand.

Their ideas and philosophies are fascinating on the surface and it does seem like they use religion as just a symbolic understanding of their philosophy which is why they are so loose with religions.

 

[74x12]

Folks, none of this passage is about the Bible. Here’s the passage in context:

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 13 And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

This about understanding spiritual gifts — not about understanding the texts. The OP is basing the premise on this text; he’s proof-texting the wrong text, misrepresenting what Paul is saying, and using that as leverage to say that unless one has some specific “belief,” one can’t understand the texts. Which is incorrect.

Then what does he mean "interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual"? And "we speak of these things" ... if that doesn't include the epistles(letters) then I don't know what does.

God gives the Spirit of truth to "lead and guide into all truth". Whoever has the Spirit doesn't instantly know everything. They must be led of the Spirit to understand. So belief has nothing to do with this. It's all about the Spirit.

What matters is you either have the Spirit or not. If all scripture is "God breathed" or "given by inspiration of the Spirit" then indeed you need the Spirit to understand it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s Spirit.​

The verse in the OP is 100% valid in context to the discussion. The scriptures are a gift of God's Spirit and they are spiritually discerned.

I can give many other scriptures that prove the same things; but you need to have a modicum of reading comprehension. Not saying you don't; but I think you're grasping at straws.

 

[sojourner]

Then what does he mean "interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual"? And "we speak of these things" ... if that doesn't include the epistles(letters) then I don't know what does.

God gives the Spirit of truth to "lead and guide into all truth". Whoever has the Spirit doesn't instantly know everything. They must be led of the Spirit to understand. So belief has nothing to do with this. It's all about the Spirit.

What matters is you either have the Spirit or not. If all scripture is "God breathed" or "given by inspiration of the Spirit" then indeed you need the Spirit to understand it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s Spirit.​

The verse in the OP is 100% valid in context to the discussion. The scriptures are a gift of God's Spirit and they are spiritually discerned.

I can give many other scriptures that prove the same things; but you need to have a modicum of reading comprehension. Not saying you don't; but I think you're grasping at straws.

Here’s more context:

6 Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the human heart conceived,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 13 And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual.

14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else’s scrutiny.

Nothing in here about “understanding the Bible.” This is about spiritual gifts. It doesn’t list the Bible as a spiritual gift. That simply is not either explicit nor implied. It’s a misinterpretation and is misused in the OP.