"Two States, One Homeland - an open land for all"

[sooda]

Sooda,

I love you, but, your credibility is not super good with me right now.

Even if you're correct about this; you have made some sweeping generalizations in this thread and in virtually all the threads that you and I have been in together.

So, I'm sorry, but, this isn't very helpful for me.

I lived in the ME for two decades and made many trips to Jordan, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

 

[dybmh]

I will honestly be flabbergasted if it turns out that faith in God ever plays a significant part in making the conflicts there less significant.

Isn't all ways that way...

If you're missing you're keys... aren't they **always** in the lat place you look...

Think about it... no matter what it is... if it's lost, then it's always found in the last place you look...

 

[dybmh]

I lived in the ME for two decades and made many trips to Jordan, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Not good enough...

You are asking me to "believe" in you... are you a Guru now?

Your claim is important. If it's true; you should be able to back it up with more than "belief".

 

[Harel13]

Here @dybmh as a start to @sooda's point:
"Hamas rose as an offshoot of the Gaza Mujama al-Islamiya branch of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which had been actively encouraged by Israel to expand as a counterweight to the influence of the secular Palestine Liberation Organization and had since 1973 been quiescent and non-confrontational towards Israel. Aside from developing Islamic charities to provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinians, it emphasized social justice (adala) and the subordination of the world to the sovereignty of God (hakmiyya). Hamas was founded in 1987, soon after the outbreak of the First Intifada, the first popular uprising against the Israeli occupation. Creating Hamas to participate in the revolt was regarded as a survival measure to enable the Brotherhood itself, which refused to fight against Israel, to hold its own against other competing Palestinian nationalist groups. By forming a military wing distinct from its social charity organizations, it was hoped that the latter would be insulated from being targeted by Israel. Co-founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin was convinced that Israel was endeavouring to destroy Islam, and concluded that loyal Muslims had a religious obligation to destroy Israel. The short term goal of Hamas was to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation. The long-term aim sought to establish an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea." (Hamas - Wikipedia)

I have to say that even the founding of Hamas has a very sneaky sort of feeling to it.

 

[sooda]

Here's the thing:

I can't read this article. It requires an account with the WallStreetJournal. And this article could be editorial and not fact-based.

Can you find another source. Something that all of us can read, and something with real teeth... something that is fact based, not editorial.

I think this is potentially a very important point you are making. But it needs support...

I understand.. I have read it many times..

Years and years ago there was testimony on CSPAN about how Hamas was founded..

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to ...
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict
Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.


Sabeel explains that a coalition of Christian and Muslim Palestinians tried to stop the formation of HAMAS but they were recruiting in the meanest refugee camps.

1. Israel helped create Hamas - News - The Daily Herald ...
   Israel helped create Hamas
   Jul 30, 2014 · Israel helped create Hamas . Wednesday Jul 30, 2014 at 6:08 AM. WASHINGTON — All signs indicate that the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is prepared to …
   
   
2. How Israel and the United States Helped to Bolster Hamas ...
   https://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/26/how_israel_and_the_united_states
   How Israel and the United States Helped to Bolster Hamas. ... nationalism was seen as a threat to Israel, and the United States, ... Movement” form the letters that create Hamas, H.M ...
   

 

[sooda]

Not good enough...

You are asking me to "believe" in you... are you a Guru now?

Your claim is important. If it's true; you should be able to back it up with more than "belief".

You mean about the founding of HAMAS?

 

[LuisDantas]

Isn't all ways that way...

If you're missing you're keys... aren't they **always** in the lat place you look...

Think about it... no matter what it is... if it's lost, then it's always found in the last place you look...

Trouble is, far as I can see certainty of doing God's Will is what is making this conflict possible, lasting, and explosive.

I have no reason to expect it to also provide the means for solving the problem. But I would like to be proven wrong.

 

[sooda]

Here @dybmh as a start to @sooda's point:
"Hamas rose as an offshoot of the Gaza Mujama al-Islamiya branch of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which had been actively encouraged by Israel to expand as a counterweight to the influence of the secular Palestine Liberation Organization and had since 1973 been quiescent and non-confrontational towards Israel. Aside from developing Islamic charities to provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinians, it emphasized social justice (adala) and the subordination of the world to the sovereignty of God (hakmiyya). Hamas was founded in 1987, soon after the outbreak of the First Intifada, the first popular uprising against the Israeli occupation. Creating Hamas to participate in the revolt was regarded as a survival measure to enable the Brotherhood itself, which refused to fight against Israel, to hold its own against other competing Palestinian nationalist groups. By forming a military wing distinct from its social charity organizations, it was hoped that the latter would be insulated from being targeted by Israel. Co-founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin was convinced that Israel was endeavouring to destroy Islam, and concluded that loyal Muslims had a religious obligation to destroy Israel. The short term goal of Hamas was to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation. The long-term aim sought to establish an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea." (Hamas - Wikipedia)

I have to say that even the founding of Hamas has a very sneaky sort of feeling to it.

I think it was sneaky. Muslim Brotherhood identified the opportunity for a HAMAS in the late 1970s... MB has been banned in Arabia since Faisel was king... early 1970s.. Osama Bin Laden was under the influence of MB.

I was really hopeful in 2002 because there was a buzz in the Arab world about investing in job creation and infrastructure in a new Palestinian state... prosperity would undergird peace as it were. King Abdallah ordered a study to reopen TAPLINE with a spur to Haifa.

 

[dybmh]

Here @dybmh as a start to @sooda's point:
"Hamas rose as an offshoot of the Gaza Mujama al-Islamiya branch of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which had been actively encouraged by Israel to expand as a counterweight to the influence of the secular Palestine Liberation Organization and had since 1973 been quiescent and non-confrontational towards Israel. Aside from developing Islamic charities to provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinians, it emphasized social justice (adala) and the subordination of the world to the sovereignty of God (hakmiyya). Hamas was founded in 1987, soon after the outbreak of the First Intifada, the first popular uprising against the Israeli occupation. Creating Hamas to participate in the revolt was regarded as a survival measure to enable the Brotherhood itself, which refused to fight against Israel, to hold its own against other competing Palestinian nationalist groups. By forming a military wing distinct from its social charity organizations, it was hoped that the latter would be insulated from being targeted by Israel. Co-founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin was convinced that Israel was endeavouring to destroy Islam, and concluded that loyal Muslims had a religious obligation to destroy Israel. The short term goal of Hamas was to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation. The long-term aim sought to establish an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea." (Hamas - Wikipedia)

I have to say that even the founding of Hamas has a very sneaky sort of feeling to it.

Sounds like the support and funding of the Mujahideen by the Reagan administration in the 80's.

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia

 

[sooda]

Sounds like the support and funding of the Mujahideen by the Reagan administration in the 80's.

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia

That comparison comes close.

 

[dybmh]

You mean about the founding of HAMAS?

Yes, but, now both u and Harel are providing the details I need.

I totally respect that u have personal experience in the region for 20 years. But in principle, I shouldn't just "believe" what people say... ( It's something I've learned here on RF ).

 

[Harel13]

I remember watching The West Wing when I was in 12th grade, and I got to the point where they decided to tackle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. it was interesting to watch. I didn't agree (and still don't) with the decisions and compromises they came up with - but if you thought that a bunch of tv show writers were egotistical enough to think that they had all the answers, well, a short time after an agreement between the Israelis and the PA was made on the show, the fictional PA leader was killed by one of the (I think fictional) terror groups, and everything fell apart.

 

[dybmh]

Trouble is, far as I can see certainty of doing God's Will is what is making this conflict possible, lasting, and explosive.

I have no reason to expect it to also provide the means for solving the problem. But I would like to be proven wrong.

I know. And you're right.

But I've got a few more arrows in my quiver. ( So to speak ). Tawhid is just one. It's the biggest and best arrow I've got. But there's others.

Besides Tawhid, next in line in my quiver is this:

Muslims are deeply principled people. And the Qu'ran explicitly requires that they honor all peace treaties. If I were negotiating peace, that ( the Islamic requirements for honoring treaties ) is "currency" for the Pro-Israel faction.

So to summarize:

Tawhid is currency for the Pro-Palenstinian faction.
Islamic Commitment to Peace Treaties is currency for the Pro-Israel faction...

Do u see how I am plotting a course towards peace?

 

[dybmh]

I remember watching The West Wing when I was in 12th grade, and I got to the point where they decided to tackle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. it was interesting to watch. I didn't agree (and still don't) with the decisions and compromises they came up with - but if you thought that a bunch of tv show writers were egotistical enough to think that they had all the answers, well, a short time after an agreement between the Israelis and the PA was made on the show, the fictional PA leader was killed by one of the (I think fictional) terror groups, and everything fell apart.

I don't watch TV very often. I remember the TV show, but, I never watched it...

 

[Harel13]

I don't watch TV very often. I remember the TV show, but, I never watched it...

It's a good show, but man, has the world changed in the decade or so that's passed since then.

 

[dybmh]

I think it was sneaky. Muslim Brotherhood identified the opportunity for a HAMAS in the late 1970s... MB has been banned in Arabia since Faisel was king... early 1970s.. Osama Bin Laden was under the influence of MB.

I was really hopeful in 2002 because there was a buzz in the Arab world about investing in job creation and infrastructure in a new Palestinian state... prosperity would undergird peace as it were. King Abdallah ordered a study to reopen TAPLINE with a spur to Haifa.

Have you heard of this group?

Institute for Interreligious Dialogue - Wikipedia.

They are from Iran. Organizations like this give me hope. But, because I am naturally gullible and overly trusting, I'm not sure if I can trust my optimistic impression of this organization.

@sooda , have u heard about this group? Can I trust that they are not mis-representing their intentions on the website? ( Feel free to speculate. I am asking for your opinion )

@LuisDantas , I consider you a trusted skeptic, if you have time, I would very much appreciate your answer to the same question posed above. Your opinion will help offset my natural bias towards optimism.

Here's snippet from the organization's website.

"
Having a genuine, effective and appropriate dialogue between different religions requires good faith and daring
"

Note the word; "daring". I like that.

hyperlink >>> iid.org.ir/?p=358

 

[dybmh]

It's a good show, but man, has the world changed in the decade or so that's passed since then.

I honestly am not interested in anything fictional anymore, I find the Midrashim are more fun than anything that's being created in recent history.

 

[England my lionheart]

May the day soon come when it's 10,000 or 100,000 if not more singing that song.

That would be amazing and although this was only 1000 people we can hope.

 

[sooda]

Have you heard of this group?

Institute for Interreligious Dialogue - Wikipedia.

They are from Iran. Organizations like this give me hope. But, because I am naturally gullible and overly trusting, I'm not sure if I can trust my optimistic impression of this organization.

@sooda , have u heard about this group? Can I trust that they are not mis-representing their intentions on the website? ( Feel free to speculate. I am asking for your opinion )

@LuisDantas , I consider you a trusted skeptic, if you have time, I would very much appreciate your answer to the same question posed above. Your opinion will help offset my natural bias towards optimism.

Here's snippet from the organization's website.

"
Having a genuine, effective and appropriate dialogue between different religions requires good faith and daring
"

Note the word; "daring". I like that.

hyperlink >>> iid.org.ir/?p=358

I would be inclined to believe them.. I haven't been to Iran in decades so I can only speculate that Iranians on the whole are not overly religious or closed to interfaith dialogue. Interesting group. I am very familiar with Sabeel but I never heard of this group in Iran.

I would guess that Iranians are more secular these days.. Even in Arabia the question of the day is "What happened to the Wahhabis?"

Prosperity, education, healthcare and peace... jobs.. matter to all these people.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My feeling is that there are too many people outside Israel/Palestine with a vested interest in it not working. If it were left purely to the people on the ground, I'm sure a solution could have been found a long time ago.

I'm sure you're wrong.