"Two States, One Homeland - an open land for all"

[dybmh]

I don't think anyone likes the current status quo, on both sides...

Bingo.

That's common ground.

So, what's next?

 

[dybmh]

So is Sabeel.

https://sabeel.org/

 

[dybmh]

I don't think anyone likes the current status quo, on both sides...

Combatants for Peace - Wikipedia

Our vision | Combatants for Peace

 

[dybmh]

What are the C's of any negotiation:

Credibility
Common Ground
Currency

That's it. That's all that's needed to make peace in the middle east.

Note: Currency is not money. It's what is valued by each of the opposing factions.

If there's interest, I can elaborate on each of these 3 items and develop potentially several possible paths to peace. It's no different than old-fashioned map&compass orienteering.

Orienteering - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

@Harel13 ,

I feel like I need to say this:

Not everyone wants the military conflict to end; I think there are a lot of people who benefit from and appreciate the status quo.

Here's a few examples:

Many Christians want to see Muslims stomped out by the Jewish People. It validates their World View and vindicates them for the harsh narrative about the Jesus' Resurrection. Many Right Wing conservative politicians both in Israel and America benefit from never ending war. It helps them get elected. Anyone who profits from manufacture of bullets or bombs... they benefit. Regional tribal warlords benefit from the conflict. Vain-Glory and authority over their fiefdom is the reward for maintaining conflict. I am not well versed in the details of the inner-workings of the Islamic Nations of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan... but... I am guessing that they benefit from never ending war as well. I suppose those fit into the category of "Right-wing Conservative Politicians". But... I want to add them to the list explicitly in case that isn't clear.

Here's The Problem: The people listed above are vastly outnumbered compared to the rest of us who want change. And yet, there is still no change.. just status quo.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 ,

I feel like I need to say this:

Not everyone wants the military conflict to end; I think there are a lot of people who benefit from and appreciate the status quo.

Here's a few examples:

Many Christians want to see Muslims stomped out by the Jewish People. It validates their World View and vindicates them for the harsh narrative about the Jesus' Resurrection in the Qur'an.

Many Right Wing conservative politicians both in Israel and America benefit from never ending war. It helps them get elected.

Anyone who profits from manufacture of bullets or bombs... they benefit.

Regional tribal warlords benefit from the conflict. Vain-Glory and authority over their fiefdom is the reward for maintaining conflict.

I am not well versed in the details of the inner-workings of the Islamic Nations of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan... but... I am guessing that they benefit from never ending war as well. I suppose those fit into the category of "Right-wing Conservative Politicians". But... I want to add them to the list explicitly in case that isn't clear.

This ties into what @Augustus wrote above - a lot of outsiders benefit from the conflict. But I think that most "insiders" - Israelis and Palestinians - just want to be able to live in peace - in some sort of manner (the how, of course, is where the conflict comes in). But even on the inside there are people that benefit from the conflict - organizations such as Hamas, for example.

 

[sooda]

@Harel13 ,

I feel like I need to say this:

Not everyone wants the military conflict to end; I think there are a lot of people who benefit from and appreciate the status quo.

Here's a few examples:

Many Christians want to see Muslims stomped out by the Jewish People. It validates their World View and vindicates them for the harsh narrative about the Jesus' Resurrection in the Qur'an. Many Right Wing conservative politicians both in Israel and America benefit from never ending war. It helps them get elected. Anyone who profits from manufacture of bullets or bombs... they benefit. Regional tribal warlords benefit from the conflict. Vain-Glory and authority over their fiefdom is the reward for maintaining conflict. I am not well versed in the details of the inner-workings of the Islamic Nations of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan... but... I am guessing that they benefit from never ending war as well. I suppose those fit into the category of "Right-wing Conservative Politicians". But... I want to add them to the list explicitly in case that isn't clear.

Here's The Problem: The people listed above are vastly outnumbered compared to the rest of us who want change. And yet, there is still no change.. just status quo.

Saudi Arabia has supported peace in Palestine for decades.. They have also called down HAMAS and Hezbollah as obstacles to peace. Jordan is at peace and can't absorb anymore Palestinan refugees.. Pakistan has NOTHING to do with Israel or the Palestinian refugees.

 

[sooda]

This ties into what @Augustus wrote above - a lot of outsiders benefit from the conflict. But I think that most "insiders" - Israelis and Palestinians - just want to be able to live in peace - in some sort of manner (the how, of course, is where the conflict comes in). But even on the inside there are people that benefit from the conflict - organizations such as Hamas, for example.

HAMAS didn't exist before the mid 1980s and was encouraged by Israel as a foil against the PLO.

 

[Harel13]

Saudi Arabia has supported peace in Palestine for decades.. They have also called down HAMAS and Hezbollah as obstacles to peace. Jordan is at peace and can't absorb anymore Palestinan refugees.. Pakistan has NOTHING to do with Israel or the Palestinian refugees.

"In keeping with an Arab League resolution in 1965, most Arab countries have refused to grant citizenship to Palestinians, arguing that it would be a threat to their right of return to their homes in Palestine. In 2012, Egypt deviated from this practice by granting citizenship to 50,000 Palestinians, mostly from the Gaza Strip.

Palestinians living in Lebanon are deprived of basic civil rights. They cannot own homes or land, and are barred from becoming lawyers, engineers and doctors. " (from Palestinians - Wikipedia)

Interesting...

 

[Brickjectivity]

Anyone else having trouble reaching this site?

It works fine. Possibly you can't get to it where you live. Try passing it through google translate.

https://www.alandforall.org

Sometimes it can act as a cheap and legal proxy.

 

[Harel13]

and was encouraged by Israel as a foil against the PLO.

I've never heard of this.
Edit: Okay, it seems that Hamas was an offshoot of the Gaza branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. That branch was encouraged by Israel, not ever Hamas itself.

 

[dybmh]

Saudi Arabia has supported peace in Palestine for decades.. They have also called down HAMAS and Hezbollah as obstacles to peace. Jordan is at peace and can't absorb anymore Palestinan refugees.. Pakistan has NOTHING to do with Israel or the Palestinian refugees.

Sooda,

I love you, but, your credibility is not super good with me right now.

Even if you're correct about this; you have made some sweeping generalizations in this thread and in virtually all the threads that you and I have been in together.

So, I'm sorry, but, this isn't very helpful for me.

 

[sooda]

"In keeping with an Arab League resolution in 1965, most Arab countries have refused to grant citizenship to Palestinians, arguing that it would be a threat to their right of return to their homes in Palestine. In 2012, Egypt deviated from this practice by granting citizenship to 50,000 Palestinians, mostly from the Gaza Strip.

Palestinians living in Lebanon are deprived of basic civil rights. They cannot own homes or land, and are barred from becoming lawyers, engineers and doctors. " (from Palestinians - Wikipedia)

Interesting...

In 1952 there were 50,000 Palestinians in Arabia.

Lebanon's demographics were turned upside down by three huge waves of Palestinian refugees forced out in 1948, 1956 and 1967. I have seen the refugee camps outside of Beirut many, many times all thru the 1950s and 1960s.

 

[dybmh]

the how, of course, is where the conflict comes in

And the resolution of this conflict can be summarized by one word:

Tawhid.

There is only One G-d.

 

[Lyndon]

This ties into what @Augustus wrote above - a lot of outsiders benefit from the conflict. But I think that most "insiders" - Israelis and Palestinians - just want to be able to live in peace - in some sort of manner (the how, of course, is where the conflict comes in). But even on the inside there are people that benefit from the conflict - organizations such as Hamas, for example.

and organisations like the IDF

 

[sooda]

I've never heard of this.

I remember it quite well..

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 ...

 

[Harel13]

In 1952 there were 50,000 Palestinians in Arabia.

Lebanon's demographics were turned upside down by three huge waves of Palestinian refugees forced out in 1948, 1956 and 1967. I have seen the refugee camps outside of Beirut many, many times all thru the 1950s and 1960s.

I think I heard they're still there. Incredible, really.

 

[LuisDantas]

I will honestly be flabbergasted if it turns out that faith in God ever plays a significant part in making the conflicts there less significant.

 

[Harel13]

I remember it quite well..

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 ...

See my edit.

 

[dybmh]

I remember it quite well..

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 ...

Here's the thing:

I can't read this article. It requires an account with the WallStreetJournal. And this article could be editorial and not fact-based.

Can you find another source. Something that all of us can read, and something with real teeth... something that is fact based, not editorial.

I think this is potentially a very important point you are making. But it needs support...