The aluminium foil hats are just as ineffective in the UK as in the US
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Trust in government healthcare and COVID
- Thread starter SomeRandom
- Start date
The aluminium foil hats are just as ineffective in the UK as in the US
We Never Know
No Slack
I dont know about the aluminium foil hats either. I dont get caught up in CNN or conspiracy social media.
We Never Know
No Slack
Now ive heard some people talk about microchips but they never mentioned bill gates.
Some of these same people said Trump would win 2020 with JFK Jr as his vice-president. Yes you read that right lol
exchemist
Veteran Member
Bill Gates is known to promote vaccination programmes in the developing world, via his foundation. So these tinfoil hat merchants have connected that philanthropy to his IT background and dreamt up this notion of microchips.
We Never Know
No Slack
Bill Gates is known to promote vaccination programmes in the developing world, via his foundation. So these tinfoil hat merchants have connected that philanthropy to his IT background and dreamt up this notion of microchips.
I think when I was a kid a saw bugs bunny wear something like that. Or maybe it was elmer fudd. I'm not sure
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Big Pharma is not just USA. I don't trust them for a sec. but healthcare is good in Holland compared to USA, which is 'sick'
From RF I get the feeling Americans go for it (vaccines)
My thought now is "because of fear to end up sick, and having to pay the bill in hospital"
I never had to worry about that. So, I don't have that fear.
Some of the organisation globally of anti-vax demonstrations was reportedly coming from a small group in Germany, including Australian demonstrations.
Always interests me pulling the thread on anti-conspiracy protesters to see just what conspiracies are involved in their mobilization.
Wow, really? Damn!
The National Library of Medicine notes that
Italy's health care system is a regionally based national health service that provides universal coverage largely free of charge at the point of delivery.
A while back the Israeli newspaper Haaretz ran an opinion piece under the headline ...
It begins:
Thanks to deft political pandering by Giorgia Meloni, leader of the fascist-friendly Brothers of Italy, anti-vaxxers now have a powerful political patron in the country that suffered Europe's second highest COVID death toll.
If elections were held today in Italy, a far right movement with deep post-fascist roots would have a clear shot at winning.
Brothers of Italy, which took just a bit more than four percent of the vote in the 2018 elections, has seen massive gains in recent opinion polls, and is now supported, according to most polls, by more than 20 percent of Italians, just inching out the League, the other major right-wing force in the country.
So what is going on? Has Italy suddenly gone back to black?
While it can be demonstrably argued that nostalgia for Benito Mussolini’s regime (and limited agitation) is still strong in Italy, the country has certainly not turned fascist overnight. Much of the Brothers’ meteoric rise is due to Italy’s current political circumstances amid the COVID-19 pandemic and its clever exploitation by Giorgia Meloni, the party’s leader, who openly aspires to one day rule the country.
Brothers of Italy, which took just a bit more than four percent of the vote in the 2018 elections, has seen massive gains in recent opinion polls, and is now supported, according to most polls, by more than 20 percent of Italians, just inching out the League, the other major right-wing force in the country.
So what is going on? Has Italy suddenly gone back to black?
While it can be demonstrably argued that nostalgia for Benito Mussolini’s regime (and limited agitation) is still strong in Italy, the country has certainly not turned fascist overnight. Much of the Brothers’ meteoric rise is due to Italy’s current political circumstances amid the COVID-19 pandemic and its clever exploitation by Giorgia Meloni, the party’s leader, who openly aspires to one day rule the country.
No. It's not the health care system.
I think you are on to something but there are a few details worth discussing.
- I think the cost of American healthcare, as you pointed out, can be a problem. But with COVID, specifically, I do not think it was cost-prohibitive because it was free.
- There was a deliberate effort by conservative media outlets and politicians to undermine the severity of COVID. Donald Trump was a big problem and perpetuated this for months prior to the vaccine.
- Social media manipulation is a big, big problem and we saw that with the vaccine. Conspiracy theories went viral and the truth couldn't keep up.
- COVID was novel in how it worked and this caused uncertainty by governing bodies and health agencies. Instead of being accepting of an evolving understanding of COVID, a large portion of the population saw it as incompetence and a bid for control of personal freedoms.
PureX
Veteran Member
The political battle going on in the U.S. is mostly the battle of individual selfishness vs. collective social responsibility. It's not an issue of trusting or not trusting the vaccine. It's an issue of what "I want" vs. what "others want of me". The vaccine, the wearing of masks, the social distancing, these have all been resented by those among us that have equated freedom with selfishness. For them, freedom means they get to do and think and say whatever they want and no one else gets to stop them or make them do otherwise. And then when someone does, by necessity, have to make them do otherwise, they fight it irrespective of the rationality involved. It's become a "moral issue" for them. The "moral" being their right to do, think, or say anything they want, regardless of any other consideration or responsibility.
It's "I want" vs. "we need".
It's "I want" vs. "we need".
Last edited:
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Some people have had really bad experiences with health care providers. Can't blame them for lack of trust. It's often a matter of them not treating the real problem, but just prescriptions for drugs that keep people sick but make the company money.
exchemist
Veteran Member
In Italy it seems to be largely about migrants from N Africa, most of whom make landfall there.
The monetary aspect is one part of this. Another is a basic distrust in experts. Given some of the history of human experimentation in the US, that distrust is not completely ill-founded.
I am reminded of an old joke:
The three most common lies:
1. The check is in the mail.
2. Don't worry, I won't c*m in your mouth.
3. I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.
There is a fundamental distrust of government in many parts of the US. Again, because of the history, this is not completely ill-founded.
So, with COVID, we have a mistrust in experts, a mistrust in the government, politicians they like saying it is all a hoax, a tendency to believe in conspiracy theories, a concern about finances, a mistrust of pharmaceutical companies (who are seen, somewhat legitimately, to be paying off the politicians), and an overall lack of understanding of the basics of biology. There is also a belief in self-reliance and dislike of social programs.
I am reminded of an old joke:
The three most common lies:
1. The check is in the mail.
2. Don't worry, I won't c*m in your mouth.
3. I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.
There is a fundamental distrust of government in many parts of the US. Again, because of the history, this is not completely ill-founded.
So, with COVID, we have a mistrust in experts, a mistrust in the government, politicians they like saying it is all a hoax, a tendency to believe in conspiracy theories, a concern about finances, a mistrust of pharmaceutical companies (who are seen, somewhat legitimately, to be paying off the politicians), and an overall lack of understanding of the basics of biology. There is also a belief in self-reliance and dislike of social programs.
I think it might be a mixed bag of influences regarding the anti-vaxxers.
Yes, it's true that the greed and profit motive in the medical profession has tainted the relationship between the people and that industry. One thing about business that my grandfather (who was a salesman for most of his life and understood the ways of business) always said constantly: "They're in business to make money." He also didn't like doctors, as he thought they were just mercenaries out to cheat him and take his money. And there have been more than a few quacks and hucksters who have come to the attention of society. So, there are people who view the medical profession with the same eye as they would view used car salesmen or aluminum siding salesmen. They think they're just out for the bucks, and they're not inclined to trust that easily. All because medicine is a for-profit, take-no-prisoners industry. This is especially true when it comes to pharmaceuticals, whose industry is the lowest of the low among the healthcare industry sleazeballs.
Another factor might be related to the health food craze and the anti-drug fanatics. For some people, any drug or medication might be seen as "dope," even if it's just aspirin or something beneficial. There are some who are very careful about what they put into their bodies, as they might seek out things like "only organic food" or that kind of thing. They want things that are only natural - no artificial flavors or preservatives. Someone probably told them "you are what you eat," so they often might want lists of ingredients of anything and everything they consume. Some people don't care what they put into their bodies, whether it's cigarette smoke, junk food, drugs. But there are others who are very careful about such things, and ironically, it's the medical profession which got people into this mode of thinking.
I've seen this quite a bit, as many people are focused on what is "natural" versus "artificial," and this view tends to permeate into numerous issues. Some of it might have come about due to "war on drugs" fanaticism, in that many view any drug at all as being bad. The government and other anti-drug propagandists are primarily responsible for that, such as those who produced the famous "this is your brain on drugs" commercial. This may also be partly due to the fact that the media routinely do not specify which drugs they're referring to whenever there's a big "drug bust" in the news. The phrase "war on drugs" itself creates in people's minds the notion that all drugs are bad, because the media narrative doesn't allow for such nuance.
exchemist
Veteran Member
It seems to me, as an outsider, that your last sentence does a lot of the work. See also post 31 from @PureX .
I continue to be amazed at how deeply ingrained the aversion to doing anything for the collective good seems to be in large segments of US society. I have mentioned before that when I was in Houston I knew educated people who thought, perfectly seriously, that the installation of the new tram line was "communism". I have been amazed by how many people read Ayn Rand and think her (to my mind abominably ugly) worldview is seriously one to adopt and to recommend.
The logic of both mask-wearing and vaccination is to help stop the individual infecting others, on the basis that these others will thereby also help them in turn. It seems that many US citizens are utterly unable to get their heads round this idea, so powerful is the notion of self-reliance and individual liberty that they have been brought up with, almost to the point of the glorification of selfishness - as advocated by Ayn Rand, in fact.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
Some I know, including myself, decided we weren’t going to get the COVID vaccine back in January 2020.
This may be labeled as “misinformation” but many people have been expecting and warning about all of the COVID laws, including vaccine passport, for many years, well before 2020.
There is precedent that justifies not trusting the government. Those who have a “Zero Trust Policy” when it comes to the government are completely valid.
I can list cases of the US government indiscriminately releasing biological weapons on the local US populace for testing purposes. The government has been sued successfully hundreds of times for harm done through this very act. But that will be labeled as “misinformation”
AlexanderG
Active Member
My impression is that Trumpism has become a cult of personality, and Trump made it very clear that to take COVID seriously would be something he considered a disloyal act against him. This stance appears to have arisen out of Trump feeling that the more COVID cases were reported, the worse he looked as a leader, hence his parallel pressure to stop testing and stop people talking about it.
Conservative evangelicals, who have been taught an epistemology based on authority rather than empirical evidence like science, have designated Trump as an Authority that must be believed without question, like their religious beliefs. It was easy for them to add him in, since the epistemological scaffolding was all there already.
Now, they think that acknowledging the risk of COVID, believing the scientific data, or getting a vaccine would be a disloyal act to their tribe, their designated authority figures, and their very identity.
It's all very disheartening, and no one knows what to do about these 40% of Americans who are living in a world of alternative facts about reality because their sense of identity and self-worth requires it.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
Below is a video that has been blocked from YouTube for being “misinformation”. If anyone is truly interested in the reasons why people will not get the vaccine, watch this video. It is completely sourced and backed by evidence. It is not government approved so it is “misinformation”. To dismiss it simply as such is to ignore the evidence against the vaccines. There is decades of evidence which shows that the government and vaccine makers do not have our best interests in mind.
Who Is Bill Gates? (Full Documentary, 2020) : The Corbett Report
Who Is Bill Gates? (Full Documentary, 2020) : The Corbett Report
exchemist
Veteran Member
Here is an assessment of the truthfulness of the Corbett report: The Corbett Report
It is rated tinfoil hat, that is, at the turbo-boost end of the scale for paranoid conspiracy nonsense.
More about Corbett himself here: James Corbett - RationalWiki
If you go in for this sort of thing, you are the sort of person I nervously step away from in the supermarket.