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Troublemane Explains the Folly of the HEALTHCARE BILL

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
There is no private law enforcement in my area. The only privately funded retirement plans are those that we opt to buy into, such as a 401K or a Roth IRA. These are nothing like being forced to buy health insurance from a private carrier.
I wonder...
Does the City you live in pick up your trash?
Or do they have a contract with one or more companies that do so?
Who pays the trash pickup?
Is there a city ordinance requiring you to have your trash removed?

How about ambulance service?
Does this city have it's own ambulances?
Or does the city have contracts with ambulance providers?
Ever gotten a bill for an ambulance ride? (My last one was $250, for a ten min. ride. Private company with city contract.)

Not to mention the thousands of private companies that have federal and state contracts that you pay for out of your taxes.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
I wonder...
Does the City you live in pick up your trash?
Or do they have a contract with one or more companies that do so?
Who pays the trash pickup?
Is there a city ordinance requiring you to have your trash removed?

How about ambulance service?
Does this city have it's own ambulances?
Or does the city have contracts with ambulance providers?
Ever gotten a bill for an ambulance ride? (My last one was $250, for a ten min. ride. Private company with city contract.)

Not to mention the thousands of private companies that have federal and state contracts that you pay for out of your taxes.
I have the option of having trash collected or taking it to the dump myself. It is my choice. The ambulances are run by the hospital. You are billed for their use on the bill that the hospital gives you. No options for the above come from my city. I pay a trash company that is about 200 miles away to pick up my trash. I used to bring it to the dump myself but I decided to try this instead. This is not part of my water bill, as in many cities. It is a private deal I chose to take part in between myself and a trash company. The government has no involvement in this. Again, it is my choice. None of these things people are posting here have anything to do with the messed up way Obama is trying to force people to unconstitutionally purchase insurance through a private third party.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
These are both systems that run more like a socialist program. The healthcare system that was forced through is not. Do we pay a private company to provide our police? Is Social Security now a private organization?

I have the option of having trash collected or taking it to the dump myself. It is my choice. The ambulances are run by the hospital. You are billed for their use on the bill that the hospital gives you. No options for the above come from my city. I pay a trash company that is about 200 miles away to pick up my trash. I used to bring it to the dump myself but I decided to try this instead. This is not part of my water bill, as in many cities. It is a private deal I chose to take part in between myself and a trash company. The government has no involvement in this. Again, it is my choice. None of these things people are posting here have anything to do with the messed up way Obama is trying to force people to unconstitutionally purchase insurance through a private third party.
What you are missing is that you, as a citizen of the US, pay many private companies to provide services. And that while the specific services I mentioned may be indeed private options in your city, in many cities they are not.
And if the provisions of the health care bill are unconstitutional for the requirements, then so too, by extension, are the city and state provisions that force one through taxes to pay for private services.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
I keep trying to point out that a purely public option would be to make hospitals anyone could go to for free, no matter whether you are wealthy or not. Public trash pick up, public services for police and fire/rescue, public schools, these things are paid for by taxpayers, and you can enjoy their services whether you pay taxes or not, whether you live there or not.

An ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM, is where the gov't levies a tax against people who have higher incomes and gives it to people with lower incomes, such as through subsidies for people who cannot afford health insurance while taxing others. This is not the same thing as a purely 'public healthcare system'. An ENTITLEMENT SYSTEM is set up to incentivize people to STAY POOR. It is the very means to keep poor people dependent upon the government, generation after generation, so that politicians can use them to maintain their political power.

So, anyone using the tired old argument, "Well if you dont like socialism, you just shouldn't drive on the roads..." etc, is simply parroting something they have heard, and not something they really understand. I mean TAXPAYERS PAY FOR THE ROADS, the schools, the police force, etc. If I pay taxes, then I can feel justified in driving the roads, going to public libraries, and enjoying the benefits of society, just like someone who does not pay any taxes can enjoy those same things--they are public services.

But as a taxpayer, as a working man, as a person with a decent health insurance policy, as a guy with a job who pays his taxes and works hard all day, sometimes all night also, I cannot apply for a state assisted insurance policy. I am not eligible for any entitlement programs because I make too much money, but don't make enough to pay for everything out of pocket. This is why entitlements are a bad thing, because they are supposed to help people by "redistribution of wealth", and the claim is that the rich are going to pay the bill...except the RICH are the people who own businesses and keep the rest of us employed!!!! And will only turn around and raise their prices, fire employees, lower wages, and do other things to keep their costs low, and keep their income level the same.

These costs get shifted down to us, working folks. So the guy in the middle is now shouldering the burden of both the rich person's mansion, and the poor person's "free healthcare". So, you people making the argument that I as a taxpayer, should not try to enjoy whatever public services I already pay for, can take a flying leap!
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Guess what? As a working class citizen who has a good job, has decent health insurance, and pays his taxes....



Nothing has changed for you.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Guess what? As a working class citizen who has a good job, has decent health insurance, and pays his taxes....



Nothing has changed for you.


:facepalm:

Ah, so you are saying that (1) no raises for the next decade, (2) continuing the downturn in the economy, (3) increased national debt to crisis levels, (4) dropping GDP while inflation skyrockets...all of these things will not effect me. Sure. Dream on pal.

I guess you can put your head back in the sand, now.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
:facepalm:

Ah, so you are saying that (1) no raises for the next decade, (2) continuing the downturn in the economy, (3) increased national debt to crisis levels, (4) dropping GDP while inflation skyrockets...all of these things will not effect me. Sure. Dream on pal.

I guess you can put your head back in the sand, now.


and who began this trend?

hint:

chimp.jpg
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Obama was drinking that night and really didn't want that pic of him shared.

actually that was meant to be Dubya....
he was compared to a chimp throughout his presidency.

Comparing Obama to a chimp is a bit rascist of you, frankly.
But I understand, because you ahve fully bought into reactionary lies
sadly you are one of those that are actively supporting the very policies and peoples
who, as a working class, blue collared worker, they don't give a rat's bottom about you. Remember it wasn't you that gained with tax policies during the Bush years...

In the state I live in, republicans want to raise sales tax to 24%, 24%!!!!
Typical republican tactic, lower or just keep income tax the same, but tax sneakily through sales tax, which will effect the "poor" very hard.....

Frankly I am disgusted by blue collared workers that vote republican, but given the state of education in this country..and despite the assertion by someone else in a different thread, a lot of this country does live in virtual 3rd world poverty like conditions.......as such then, it is hardly surprising, stupid is as stupid does.

Or should that be monkey see monkey do?
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
:facepalm:

Ah, so you are saying that (1) no raises for the next decade, (2) continuing the downturn in the economy, (3) increased national debt to crisis levels, (4) dropping GDP while inflation skyrockets...all of these things will not effect me. Sure. Dream on pal.

I guess you can put your head back in the sand, now.

It's a bit hyperbolic to claim that the health care bill caused all of these things, and will insure that they continue in the future. Our economy is a lot more complex than that.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
It's a bit hyperbolic to claim that the health care bill caused all of these things, and will insure that they continue in the future. Our economy is a lot more complex than that.
While there are many factors in an economy's survival, why create a situation that locks a ball and chain around that economy's ankle?
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Please explain how that is racist of me. It's your picture. You implied it is of the one who is at fault. I named the one at fault. Therefore I must be racist. Yea that makes so much sense.

Uh, no. The chimp was implied to be the one who started this thread. Also, Obama is not at fault for anything. It is YOUR politicians that are at fault. We could have gotten MUCH better had Obama not pandered to your type.

Nice try.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
Uh, no. The chimp was implied to be the one who started this thread. Also, Obama is not at fault for anything. It is YOUR politicians that are at fault. We could have gotten MUCH better had Obama not pandered to your type.

Nice try.
Not one Republican voted for the bill. All of it's failures that you will see can and will be blamed on the Democrats.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Not one Republican voted for the bill. All of it's failures that you will see can and will be blamed on the Democrats.

They'll be blamed for it, probably, but the failure really came about because 1.) of blue dogs (conservative democrats) an 2.) Obama was stupid enough to go for "bipartisianship."
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Not one Republican voted for the bill. All of it's failures that you will see can and will be blamed on the Democrats.

Ugh, really? So, this is the tactic conservatives are going to take now? "We didn't vote for it, so it's all your fault". Unbelievable. Of course you didn't vote for it. The republicans wouldn't have voted for any health care bill the democrats put out there. Some of the ideas in the bill were started by republicans years ago. The republicans are the cause of the crappiness of this bill because they forced the democrats to keep watering it down until we got to this, at which point the democrats said "**** it, we'll just do it without you". If the republicans had been more receptive to actually talking about the best option for a bill, we could have gotten a better one, but they were content to simply say "No", and not offer any kind of alternatives.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
um...
is there someone who might be able to point to a post where the bill is actually explained or is this still nothing more than a fear mongers paradise?
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
Ugh, really? So, this is the tactic conservatives are going to take now? "We didn't vote for it, so it's all your fault". Unbelievable.
If you believe so strongly in the bill then you shouldn't have to worry about any "blame." You believe it is a good, flawless deal, right? If you are right and there will be no ill effects then what are you worried about? Or are you admitting that the bill is ridiculous and will contribute greatly to the financial collapse of this country?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
If you believe so strongly in the bill then you shouldn't have to worry about any "blame." You believe it is a good, flawless deal, right? If you are right and there will be no ill effects then what are you worried about? Or are you admitting that the bill is ridiculous and will contribute greatly to the financial collapse of this country?
Personally, I support the bill because something needs to be done and the hardest task to accomplish is the one you never start. Does that mean I think it is flawless? Hardly.

Some of the flaws would not exist if Republican (and blue-dog dem) opposition had not been so strong. Does that mean Dems don't share the reponsibility for the flaws? Of course not.
 
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