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Featured Trinitarian? Sure, sort of

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    He understands as it was intended to be understood by him.
     
  2. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    Thanks. I try to read the NT as the authors wrote it. And they never unambiguously call Jesus "God".
     
  3. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Paul said that Christ removes ignorance of True God, only this allows to enter the Kingdom.
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    'Jesus is God' came from men, I agree.
     
  5. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    Sure, that's part of what Paul says, but he makes salvation depend upon Jesus's "atoning death" which "crucified" the Law, made it a dead thing, and replaced the Mosaic covenant with a "new" testament in Jesus's blood.
     
  6. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    Yes, it came from late generations of people who never met or knew Paul or the first apostles...
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    If you understood anything about the religion, you would realize, that
    John 1:1-10
    Is calling Jesus, the manifestation of the Lord, who is God. Again, this isn't 'possession', therefore the persona of Jesus, is God.
     
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    If you look in 1Cor2, Paul clearly divide soul nature in two groups, so his latters, intended for BOTH NATURES, message is mixed and was intended for Spiritual nature to separate and read the message to Soul nature as soul nature was incapable understanding God as Spirit.
     
  9. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    It came when Soul nature took over church and prosecuted Spiritual nature of 1Cor2.
     
  10. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Not Jesus, but Christ, High Aeon.
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    So far, your argument has gone from saying Jesus isn't [g-d, to saying anyone can be called g-d. You don't understand how the word is used, which is why what you're saying makes no sense.
    ^
    Actually the verse in greek language is 'only begotten g-d,
    :cyclone:

    :cyclone:

    ^

    :cyclone:

    ^
    So, here there is some sort of obfuscation, from not knowing how the names and words are used, g-d, Lord, so forth.
    Doesn't know how to read the verses so they aren't ambiguous, in other words

    :cyclone:
    Then ends up saying anyone can be called g-d , because you don't understand how to tell the difference, when the names and words are used.
     
  12. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Those to whom writings were originally addressed very well understood and properly segregated the writings.
     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    If you can show that book of James, for example, is gnostic, in other words you seem to disagree with my premise, for some reason, then go ahead.
     
  14. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    The entire NT is Gnostic. Except later reductions extend of which we may never know.
     
  15. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    If you understood anything about the New Testament you would know that Jesus explicitly excluded himself from the Godhead in John 17:3 where he calls the Father "you, the only true God".

    The failing here is all yours. Time for you to move on. Or else acquire some serious education about the New Testament.
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    You mean, one can read gnosticism into the text.

    So,
    Matthew 1:20=not gnosticism
    Matthew 15:25=not gnosticism
    Matthew 22:37-46=not gnosticism
    John 1:1-10=not gnosticism
    John 1:13=not gnosticism
    Matthew 24=not gnosticism

    • so, actually, the type of gnosticism, in the text, is theoretical. What you actually have is different descriptions of g-d, however, so what? These are different writers, so one defaults to Jesus.

    Then, to derive a foreign g-d, one must "interpret", verses by Jesus, where they then contradict His references, Scriptural context , in other words.
     
  17. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    If by "Gnostic" is meant an immediate, unmediated experience of the divine, then surely Paul was "Gnostic" (and this is why so many Gnostics favored Paul's writings).

    Paul claimed ot have had an immediate knowledge of the spiritual Christ, "whom God revealed in me". Of course, Paul's Jesus is not yet the archetype of the various "Christs" that appear in the Gnostic gospels, but the Spirit of the Son who "possesses" Paul is certainly a prototype of the later Gnostic Christ.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Like James wrote : 24*for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was." Know yourself - Gnostic motto, I'm not going to argue with you. Take it or leave it, all NT is Gnostic.
     
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    The context makes it so even if the whole NT were gnostic, it still describes the incarnation, so forth.

    So, that is sort of a non argument, when regarding the premise.
     
  20. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    Yes, because the Savior of the Epistles is a wholly transcendental spirit entity. Only the later-written Gospels claim that Jesus was a man who had lived on earth. The original Christian experience of Jesus was of a heavenly spirit, not the resuscitated corpse of a mortal man.
     
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