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Featured Trinitarian Arguments

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why Trinitarian Arguments are not well founded
    Argument #1 - Oneness

    Some Trimitarians argue that when Jesus said, "I and the father are one", he was supporting the Trinity - namely, that the Father and son and holy spirit, are one entity.
    However, to use this as a supporting argument is not reasonable, since the scriptures speak of oneness, on many occasions, and never meant one entity.
    For example :
    (John 17:11) . . .I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
    (1 Corinthians 3:8) . . . the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work.

    It would also be highly unreasonable to use such an argument since one would be ignoring hundreds of scriptures including ones such as :
    (Deuteronomy 6:4) . . .“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
    (Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,
    (Mark 10:18) . . .Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.
    (John 6:46) . . .Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father.
    (John 6:57) . . .Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
    (John 8:29, 38) . . .And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.”
    . . .I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”

    ...and it can be reasonably concluded that based on the above scriptures, the oneness Jesus referred to, is oneness or unity in purpose. (John 17:20-24)

    (John 5:36-38) 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.

    Perhaps I don't really understand the argument Trinitarians are making, because to say that Jesus (the son) and God (the father) are the same entity, and then to say that the son is one entity, and the father is one (another) entity, does not add up. It's self defeating.
    Perhaps one who believes such, can make it clear what they are really saying?
     
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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    I can clear up their logic by using more common sense thinking (non biased view is always a good thing) if you like. It's not hard to make sense in it. Disagreement and logic are two different things. It doesn't make sense to disagree with something without understanding it first.

    Also, there is scripture to back their view. Unless you're focused on how they debate (focus on the person), not the context, both sides make sense.
     
  3. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Family. Father and Son are one family. Just like in a human family. The husband and wife are separate people but make up one family. Why can't people see that two separate spirit beings can also be one family. The Father is not the Son but together they are one family. And the important thing is that God is not limited to two or three persons. God is adopting more persons into his family. When you limit God to three persons you are denying people their opportunity to join that family. God can be thousands or millions of persons. Not just two or three.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I don't get it, since you didn't explain. Would you mind explaining how both makes sense?
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You call the family God?
    When Jesus prayed that his followers be one, as he and his father were one, is he praying that they be God?
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    It's just the language and interpretation in how you read scripture.

    Trinitarians can't see the difference between god and christ because everything christ says comes from god. So, they are treating the intermediary as the source because everything he says they say must come from the source word for word/concept for concept. To say they are different (human vs god) would be making that human like us and since they believe humans have a sinful nature, christ can't obviously be human. Only the prophets could speak for god but because jesus was the savior, they feel his connection with god makes him god. Most don't believe he is the creator.

    Non-trinitarians see intermediary quite literally. They don't connect christ's nature with god just a spokesperson for him. So, they are talking about christ's role compared to god and their differences. The former is talking about christ's nature in conjunction with god.

    Scriptures that point to jesus being god is the popular father and I are one. Trinitarians see that the cobination of the two means they are each other-which is that's how it's read. They say the "one" means they are the same.

    It just makes sense. One person can't tell the difference between father and son and the other person can. Just their own interpretations of scripture verses and especially their personal experience. It would be odd for a trinitarian to feel closer to jesus if they believed jesus was not god regardless if he had the authority to speak for him.

    But it's easier to talk about it without scripture. I know christians love their scripture but without thinking out the logic (or going word by word by scripture) of course you won't understand it. One takes it abstractly and the other literal. But if christians can't explain what they believe in their own words, it's kinda hard to see how they came to their conclusion and not the conclusion of the apostles and prophets.
     
  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Does the Old Testament mention Jesus?
    The Hebrew name YESHUA transliterated “Iesus” (Greek), Jesus (English), means SALVATION or GOD SAVES. So technically speaking, any mention of God's salvation in the Old Testament is an indirect reference to Jesus.

    Mary in the Old Testament.

    Mary in the New Testament
    A common Protestant tradition holds that there are six women named as Mary in the New Testament: Mary, mother of Jesus; Mary Magdalene; Mary of Bethany; Mary mother of James the younger; Mary mother of John Mark; and Mary of Rome.

    A modern day human would then claim, that it was discussed before.

    What condition in natural life existed before for this discussion to exist?

    Temple and pyramid sciences did....and life ended.

    Therefore if a topic of conversation is proven to have pre existed, then all warnings about changing the Immaculate spirit of the Heavens was previously forewarned. And yet science/occultism ignored all relevant teachings, as is proven.

    3 says a teaching. A quarter in time is 3. A change in a sea of the son is x 3.

    3, 3, 3, 3 = 12, the hours of light. The cycle around a Sun. A circuit.

    If you change the natural timed light, then observation of it would state.

    33.33.33.33. as 3 is 24.

    24 O a circuit or a cycle.

    33 plus 33 = 66
    Information therefore begins to detail that science understood concepts, for they claimed the act of evil is 666.

    I am not a scientist, but anyone who can read would begin to realise, information existed taught against the acts of science changing our natural atmospheric gases and natural light.

    Why life was sacrificed. For it is the only reason that the Bible was written.

    However Satanists today claim that this form of knowledge is powerful for them, and you would wonder at their mentality. For it was never science, natural. And science never owned natural and nor does science control natural. But I truly believe that some males think they do.

    Therefore if you are first and original to your own form, a human. Living in a natural environment that owns natural 12 as a cycle. And then occult science forces it to change by holding UFO radiation mass, a history of the attack of our planet, then you would wonder why they think self intelligent.
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Don't most people say that they are "God's children"? That is a family. The child of a dog is a dog and the child of a cat is a cat so why not the child of a God is a god. All part of one family. That is why the trinity idea is so false. It limits God to three persons. But God is not limited. You and I and everyone else can be part of the same God family.
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    This has been explained MANY times here even within the last few months. In Catholic theology there is a difference between God (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete). and the latter two are viewed as being of the "essence"* of God.


    * "essence" definition: "the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character."
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    Maybe saying nature would be better than essence. Mystical words tend to make the argument worse (they think of paganism). The nature of god is christ himself. The nature of the Eucharist is christ himself. Things like that. "Is" in protestant view is very literal. Jesus Is the creator not the essence of the creator. Jesus Is sinless, not the essence or assuming the nature of a sinless "person."

    It's kind of like saying "Eucharist is jesus" over and over thinking the essence of the Eucharist is the same as the physical bread and wine itself. Of course catholics know the difference, but they don't speak of the two as if they were different. When speaking to someone who does not get the connection, taking out the mystics can make understanding a bit better especially since many protestants take things literal. Aka. Use a different approach.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    If you can follow me with the context without bias of the church, I can probably explain it better.

    Take physical communion-body of believers and the lord's supper. The physical communion or Mass, bread, and wine is the "physical" part. The holy spirit, scripture, etc is the spiritual part. When more than one come together, christ is present. So, the body, the Mass, the bread and wine Is christ. There is no separation between the people, the supper, and the host. When all come together in Mass, christ is present.

    Same as the trinity. When the physical human christ is present, god is present. So, when people come into the physical presence of christ, they say they are coming into the presence of god. So whatever christ does, god affirms. The glue is the holy spirit. Since they are all three "as one" trinitarians don't treat them differently. They are a union. A tri-nity not a unity.

    When you say there is no trinity (three people in union just like communion and mass), you're saying christ is "just" a human and there is no essence between the two. (Trinitarian view)

    That makes sense just as seeing them separate insofar jesus being the middle man to god not god himself (a human). The problem is you guys are depending more on what scripture says in content-word for word-rather than context.
     
  12. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Problem with this is that Jesus was a real live flesh and blood person, not an "essence." The Father and the Son are two absolutely distinct separate "persons". They make up a family. These is no essence in a family. And the best part is that every human has the chance to be an equal part of that family. Not two, not three but millions of "persons" in God's family.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Essence" really isn't mystical per se since it also means that something is often more than just a sum of its parts. For example, if I didn't know what an "automobile" is, and you listed all its parts, that still wouldn't explain what it is used for.

    Ah, now I see what you're saying, and you make a good point.

    Ya, as sometimes things can get "lost in translation ", no doubt.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But one doesn't negate the other.

    Actually there is. For example, I am husband and a father, so both are part of my "essence" within our family. So, we can extend that same use of "essence" with God, who is thus the "Father", the "Creator", etc. Same with Jesus, as he's the "Son", the "Messiah", a "prophet", etc.
     
  15. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Father said to me as a teaching. Heard in AI as he dies daily all day long as males O a world/Earth community, whose whole life recording is shared with his brothers and it then tells an over conscious feed back. Feed back encoded into our atmosphere by machines.

    As the past theme vision where he gained science theories, flooded Earth after Sun UFO mass attack/core fusion/sink holes, stone melt, flood filling in holes, flood up to mountain tips. Tips above water flat top mountain fission removal by still present UFO mass.

    Spatial vacuum the whole time assisting Earth survival, vacuum and water mass saved Earth O God the first ONE, stone mass planet owning cold radiation fusion in space...all the Numbers wandering in a cycle 12 months.

    Said males as adults invented the sciences/machine design. Told a lot of stories first before design/number/thesis was gained....so after reactive causes design changed Earth with released UFO radiation mass sucked out of its body/fused. Why the teaching said keep Earth's cold radiation fused mass SEALED.

    For the spatial vacuum sucked out the heated radiation mass.

    So when you dig up mass, like the ancients did, for trans mutation radiation/radio wave sciences...like we do today, Earth releases the same quantity of radiation from out of its body. Your formula might quote thesis design/reaction, but radiation x mass belongs to all O of planet Earth the SAME quota.

    Father said, he had sex with our Mother, and they owned the forming baby.

    Yet the cloud images own male/female and baby feed back images. And sex is the only reason by 2 human beings, adults owned a life.

    So straight away you would be notified, life got irradiated attacked due to male adult science/machine and attacked the baby life.

    Just like the bible said. So if you quote...the Egyptians and the Hebrews or whoever they named self as in the past were using Temple pyramid science, and it nucleated attacked them all. Then the same situation would recur again when you rebuilt the technology and used it again. Moses theme nearly the same as Jesus theme. One natural condition changed. The Earth mass gone, and the atmospheric gases gone.

    So science quotes.....the ICE once kept DNA stable and safe for life. Moses melted the ICE and the ground flooded, sink holes opened so the flooding waters filled up the sink holes first. Why the above ground did not flood very high. Yet it lapped around the Sphinx base and Giza pyramid as evidence, yes it did flood.

    ICE gone. Science taught the only reason we still were living without the ICE to support EVOLVED DNA from dinosaur destruction....ICE cooling gases of atmosphere was due to Saviour asteroid wandering star gas release. For ICE was no longer supportive of a non mutative sick irradiated life.

    Exactly how it was taught.

    So the baby DNA returned into the Genetics living in their own HOLY LAND...then got resacrificed and only survived living for 33 years....just as taught. So everyone knows life died. Yet Satanists in science tried to convince everyone that this form of event saves life.

    Historically a psychologist would then have to do a conscious life mind report on humans who think non correctly, which is what the bible is about. Not only a biological reasoning in science, but a conscious psychological theme.

    Why they had to quote and no MAN is GOD...for they knew radiation/radio wave feed back falsifies mind thinking conditions and over rides its self conscious ability to think correct and rational thoughts. Why it was taught.

    Father and baby son idealism of 3. Father is first, baby is second, Holy spirit is first, heavens.

    Holy spirit supports the life of the Father who gives life to the human male baby, who grows back into the Father. How the statement was stated as a biological advice to self. So that you would not think of the heavenly body as a body to use in science/machine conditions against self survival.

    For the bible was just a teaching, only taught correctly by who read it correctly.
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Can you show one verse in the Bible where it says all three are one but three? Im interested to see what you are speaking about.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    All three are one- tri nity means three in one/group of three). Three: creator, son, spirit. One cause and one purpose. Three different natures. Three roles.

    They're not each other. It just means they are in one accord. Trinity not unity.

    Trinitarians focus on unity between all three. Non trinitarians focus on their individualities working together.

    You'd have to be specific. It's the whole NT.

    Here are some of my old posts. I listed them many times but no one challenges me on them.

    What is the most important message of Jesus?

    Jesus is not god

    The father calls Jesus God, and infers that Jesus is the creator

    I think it's a pretty easy concept to see how they are one and three. Not sure how else to explain it.

    Here we go @nPeace
     
    #17 Unveiled Artist, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    None of them define the trinity. None.

    Proving Jesus is God is not trinity. In fact, its the heresy of Sabellianism. What I asked is to back up your statement mate with at least one verse that defines the trinity.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    Trinity is all three in one. Each of them talk about the relationship between the three that makes them in one accord.

    It's a trinity not a unity. Maybe you're arguing what trinitarians tell you but I'm looking at the NT and how it relates all three together. You got to get out of the argument of christians and see the tri-nity from a biblical not a evangalist christian perspective. Also, many trintiarian christians can't tell the difference between christ and god. Doesn't mean they don't know the difference. Just means their relationship with both of them are one.

    Take this verse

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Relationship between father and son.

    Jesus is not god

    This is from a trinitarian perspective.

    Jesus is a life giving Spirit, see 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

    If jesus was "just a human" the father would not give him the authority to be a living spirit for others to join with him as the father. When christ died, his spirit united christians with their father. Because he is the intermediary between god and man and because whatever christ speaks, it's of the father, christians say that christ is god. Context.

    The rest talks about the Word of god, another way of saying son. Usually one's word is not separate from the person who said it. So, in this context, christ is the word of god. The word (god's dictations) can't be separated from the father. Since christ is the Word. Christ can't be separated from the father. Christians say that makes him god/creator. I'm talking about the bible not christian trinitarian views. One trinitarian told me christ is the creator. I thought that was weird, but there you go.

    Trinitarians see the relationship with the creator, savior, and spirit (love and grace of christ) as one. They don't separate the two because their purpose and role are the same and they work the same. So that's how they see them. Most trinitarians I speak with don't call jesus the creator. Even catholics don't call christ the creator. So, it sounds like you're talking about evangalist christian arguments not the relationship and tri-nity in which the bible describes all three persons.

    The other side makes sense too.

    Non-trinitarians see the creator, savior, and spirit as separate persons, for lack of better words. They interpret their role as their nature and since jesus is a human, the creator is a being, and the spirit is the essence of love and grace, they can't be each other. So, their emphasis is more on their common cause not their common nature.

    Got to get out of christian arguments. If trinitarians believed christ is god is spirit, it would be a unity not a trinity.

    Got to think more about it in the context of scripture not just finding the right verse and literalizing something and someone that can't be literalized by its nature.
     
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  20. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Is your child part of your essence. Or is he or she a se[arate person but part of the family?
     
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