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Featured Trinitarian Arguments

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No Artist. It's not just the language and interpretation in how you read scripture.
    It's misunderstanding, misinterpretation, misrepresentation, and in most cases, a deliberate twisting to fit a preconceived idea.

    Surely you know that people do twist things to suit themselves and misinterpret, and misrepresent what others say.
    Do you say, it's just... when people take your words and do those things, or have you never personally experienced that?
    I think we should not forget that they are evil people who do things - including mislead others- for selfish reasons, and they are people who themselves are misled, and so misunderstand things.
    We only have to read what was said of the Pharisees in Jesus day, to get a good example.
    I mean, didn't these people call for the release of a know serious criminal, in exchange for the life of a man they knew was innocent!? How much more evil can one be.
    There are wicked people today who couldn't care less about the truth of God's word, and they don't mind twisting scriptures... and then they are the mislead - misled (in most cases) because they do not yet really value truth.

    You'll have to clarify what you mean when you say, "the difference between god and christ".
    I'm not sure whether you mean the difference between almighty God, and Christ, or a god (Godlike), and Christ.
    If you are saying they cannot tell the difference between almighty God and Christ, because Christ represents God, I would have to suggest such individuals go back to elementary school, and learn the basics of what it means to represent, speak for, carry out the will of, someone.
    Then they would need to learn the basics of son ship, ownership, and fatherhood, and other basic things.
    After having that basic knowledge reading the Bible might be be a more productive and beneficial pursuit.
    They would better understand basic expressions.

    I understand that.
    Are you speaking of your own view, because we can then better relat, since I would understand your concept.
    That would mean you are in agreement... to some extent, with @lostwanderingsoul, that Jesus is god, in the sense he is godlike.
    So would that not be the same as saying Jesus is a god?

    Now you are confusing your earlier statements - which all Trinitarians do. It can't be avoided.
    So explain please, bit by bit. break it down for me.
    The combination of the two meaning what exactly? What are you combining... the individuals, God (the father) and Christ (the son)?
    How are you combining them? Merging them into one entity? Why... and on what basis?
    how do you get them to be each other?
    Does this mean you are no longer speaking about nature?
    How do you reconcile what you just said, with what you said earlier about nature?

    In other words, believe what you will, as long as you feel comfortable with it... regardless. Is that it?

    I can agree with some things you are saying here. I too have experience that many, many, "Christians" can talk about doctrine without scripture. That's why it's false, and they are false, LOL. Didn't Jesus say that?
    In quoting Isaiah the prophet, Jesus said, "He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.” (Mark 7:6-8)
    Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31, 32)

    I understand that people express love in various ways. For example, two people may love a particular food, but express their love in various ways
    One may savor the food
    [​IMG] Um, Um Um.
    Another might gouge it.
    [​IMG] Uh...Where did it go?
    Both love it, but the difference between the two, is that one is able to gain appreciation, while the other doesn't. To the latter, it may just be, "another belly full"
    I think the same applies to where you said "without thinking out the logic (or going word by word by scripture) of course you won't understand it."
    It does not have to be a case of whether it's literal, or figurative, what's important, is taking time to study meditatively, and prayerfully to understand what the author - God, is saying.
    It is then, one can gain the understanding through the help of God's spirit, and his earthly organization.
    (Acts 8:26-40)

    Otherwise, yes, they come to their own conclusions, and not the apostles, and prophets.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    We've been through this before lost, remember?
    When you can show me that God is not God without any other existence, we can move forward, but if God is God without any other - which the Bible says he is - then your reasoning is empty. It has no basis, but is nothing more than a lostwanderingsoul, trying to see how he can get the Bible to fit in with what he believes.
    So let's see. Was God always God, before anyone existed?
    The scripture I read says Yes.
    (Isaiah 43:10, 11) . . . understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. I - I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
    What does your scripture say?
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for explaining how you see it.
    So to be clear, you believe that when Jesus said, "I and the father are one", he is speaking about union. i.e. I am in union with the father, and the father is in union with me.
    That agrees with the Bible, and I agree with it.

    So Jesus is not saying that he and the father are one entity?
    Be careful. don't confuse yourself now. remember what you said in your previous post. Think it through carefully.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You believe the holy spirit is an entity?
    I do not find anywhere in the Bible, that says God's holy spirit is an entity. Rather, the holy spirit is shown to be God's spirit, or active force, which he uses to accomplish all things according to his will.
    In fact, it was by means of holy spirit that God anointed Jesus, and the saints, and empowers all his servants to will and to act.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Let me ask. Do you have the correct interpretation of scripture and every other christian does not?

    Yes. I get what you're saying, but this doesn't exclude you. That's why it's easier to talk about the topic and not blame other people (and they you) for their misinterpretation of scripture.

    Christ: Human and savior
    God: Being and creator
    Bare bones of it

    They can't tell the difference between the savior and creator "because" whatever the savior says is the exact representation of the creator. So, they see the savior as god because he speaks for him.

    It's like going to you to know more about your parent. You're not your parent but because I would trust you insofar everything you said was from your parent, I'll treat you as I would treat your parent.

    I see both views make sense and both views are in scripture. I agree they are both scriptural, just both of you trinitarian and non-trinitarian fight about it as if you guys have the wrong relationship with god based on how one refers to him and not the relationship itself. (Almost as if one's relationship is dependent on language).

    It's language. Bible wasn't written in English, of course.

    The whole NT points to going through christ to get to god. The relationship they have with each other in order for that to happen makes them "one." It's a relationship or marriage between two people that make them one unit. If you have a child, you and your child are one because of the relationship you have with him or her. A unit.

    Merging, no. It's talking about relationship. That's the context. Those who have to find the exact word and phrase in scripture to say it's true is really missing the point.

    If you and another christian have a relationship with christ, which is important-how he interprets his relationship or the relationship itself?

    I find that christians who can think on their own without dependence on scripture seem to have a better healthier way to explain their relationship with christ than those who use scripture as their god. There's a scripture that says you look to the scripture as if it has eternal life, and even it speaks on my behalf. Mostly saying, why you're looking at scripture when even it is dependent on me not the other way around. But, well...

    With the food example, it's like you guys are eating say a cherry pie. Both of you read the instructions but then cook the pie in a way that is personal to your culture, taste, and so forth. Instead of enjoying the pie, you guys rather fight over who didn't read the instructions correctly as if the ingredients and combination of changes based on who bakes the pie. (Or spaghetti)

    Do you have a relationship with god or the bible?

    In analogy:

    If there is no difference, that's the context of the trinity view.

    If there is a difference, that's non trinitiarian view.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The "and" kind of signals that conjunction between father and son.

    But if it's not written word-for-word-for-word in the bible, you don't believe it?

    I don't know any denomination that treats jesus as an entity. He isn't saying that.

    The last part wasn't needed in your comment. It turns it sarcastic and it makes it about the person not the topic discussed.
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Where did I say the spirit was an entity?

    I said the spirit was god's grace and love. The glue between the people in Mass, communion, christ, and creator.

    What's a force?
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Would you please explain what you mean by " God is not God without any other existence". The Bible says that the Word was with God in thwe beginning so I am not sure what you are asking. But I would like a chance to understand.
     
  9. Pipiripi

    Pipiripi End Times Prophecy.

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    God is one God. Don't you have read above?
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Bare with me please.

    Do you believe Jesus taught what he did for nothing? Three and a half years of teaching people the truth; Choosing personally and personally teaching and training a selected group to carry out his ministry, and leaving them to carry on in making more disciples when he left; Promising them that he will be with them- not physically - in the work until the end of the world.
    Do you think that Jesus left the earth and forgot what he promised, and forgot that his fathers work was not completed until the work was done, and that he left people to just decide whatever they think, and whatever they think would be okay, as long as they think it is?

    I can tell you, that I believe Jesus is alive in heaven.
    He did not go there and forget his promises.
    He did not go there and forget his work - which he started, and left in the hands of his faithful followers.
    Hence, what we saw in the book of acts, for example, when he used the apostles, including the converted Paul, to organize congregations, and appoint elders in those congregations, and to continue to carry out the ministry of preaching the Good news of the kingdom far and wide, was a clear indication that Jesus has not forgotten.

    Here is a nice way to answer your question.
    Let's do a time travel back somewhere around mid first century.
    I'm not sure, but would you ask Paul, or Barnabas, or Timothy, "Do you have the correct interpretation of scripture and every other christian does not?"
    i imagine Paul might answer this way... "Let me refer you to the letter of the beloved apostle, Peter.
    (2 Peter 2:1-3) . . . 1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping.
    Timothy might chime in "However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons," 1 Timothy 4:1
    Paul might then add, "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among [the congregation] and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among [the congregation itself] men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. (Acts 20:29, 30)

    Paul might then kindly summarize, "My dear friend, if you think that knowing who the faithful followers of the Lord are, involves interpretation of scripture, you are mistaken. Actually, did you notice what my friend Timothy said? They will pay attention to teachings of demons. Yes. demons teach as well, and how would you know if you are being taught by demons? Men will speak twisted things to draw away the disciples from the faith.
    There will be many interpretations.
    How would you know which is right?
    It is not about interpretation, but it is about identifying the Christian congregation which Jesus Christ - the head, directs. The better question is, how can you identify that Christian congregation?
    Can you?"

    That's my answer to your question. It's not me. It's the congregation of which Jesus is head. All the others, are what Jesus and his apostles warned against. (Matthew 24:11) . . . Many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
    I have identified the Christian congregation that Jesus heads, and I have become a part of it, Hence I am learning what the scriptures really say, rather than the many misinterpretations, and false doctrines common in the many thousands of religions, with their conflicting doctrines which all are basically rooted in one when you look closely.
    One example is what we are currently discussing - the Trinity. All - every one - of the Christian denominations believe the Trinity - a root of Babylonian religious beliefs - in one form or other. The Christian congregation under Christ, never believed this, nor does it, today.
    The same is true of the immortality of the soul.

    I'll be glad to run through with you, each identifying mark of that Christian congregation, if you are interested.
    I'll give you one though.
    Unity of teachings, and practice (particularly showing love for all the brotherhood), demonstrating that they are under one head - Christ.
    (John 13:35) . . . By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
    (1 Peter 2:17) . . . have love for the whole association of brothers,. . .
    (1 Corinthians 1:10) . . . Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

    So let me ask you...
    Do you believe Jesus is over all the different "Christian" denominations around the world? If you do, what scriptural basis, do you have for believing such?
    Or, do you believe Jesus heads, and directs an organized people on earth who are united in worship, and continuing to carry out his work throughout the earth, in line with scriptures such as Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19, 20; ?
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Did not Paul say, "Come. Let us reason together."?
    Did not Paul practice what he preached, by his example?
    (Acts 17:2, 3) 2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references . . .
    Did you not say that some prefer to just speak, and not use references, is that not because they cannot do like Paul, and prove anything by references?
    Is that not in complete contrast to Jesus, and the apostles?
    (Mark 11:27-33) 27 They came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came 28 and said to him: “By what authority do you do these things? Or who gave you this authority to do these things?” 29 Jesus said to them: “I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 Was the baptism by John from heaven or from men? Answer me.” 31 So they began to reason among themselves, saying: “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why, then, did you not believe him?’ 32 But dare we say, ‘From men’?” They were in fear of the crowd, for these all held that John had really been a prophet. 33 So they answered Jesus: “We do not know.” Jesus said to them: “Neither am I telling you by what authority I do these things.”
    (Acts 6:8-10) 8 Now Stephen, full of divine favor and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. 9 But some men of the so-called Synagogue of the Freedmen came forward, along with some Cy·reʹni·ans and Alexandrians, and some from Ci·liʹcia and Asia, to dispute with Stephen. 10 But they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.
    Is that not what you expect of a Christian.
    If they cannot give clear explanations in their own words,; explain scriptures in line with scripture; prove by scriptural references, then one need to question their true identity... don't you think?

    How is that not being able to tell the difference? I'm not getting you on that one. it isn't adding up to something I can relate to.

    What I described which you responded to here is not describing two different views.
    So I do not understand what you mean by there are both....
    What was described in the OP, are two different views. Both do not say that Jesus and God are one in unity, but one says to the contrary, that Jesus and God, are the same entity.
    How can that be the same as in union with each other.
    I think because you see it from your perspective, you are assuming that this is the perceptive being refered to by others. That is not the case.

    What's language? Merging two people into one entity, or seeing how two persons can be in union? It's mot language.

    Excellent!

    Great!

    How can I have a relationship with you, if I don't know you?
    Which is more important to you... knowing each other, or just having the company?

    Of course, if I don't know you, and you don't know me, we can think we have a relationship, just because we eat in a restaurant together, but there will come a time when the realization will hit us, that we don't have a relationship at all.
    Jesus wont provide any shock absorbers either.
    "And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:23)
    You think that will be said gently?

    Oh, I see. You think everyone should get along, and agree on things - whether wrong or right, and nobody should correct anything that is false, because maybe you believe there is no truth?
    Sorry to disappoint you, nut we are in a war... or should I say, wars. You are in a war, whether you like it, or not. The thing about this war is, it is not a friendly game of Chess. It's the real thing.
    To lose this war is permanently fatal, and involves, not just a loss of life, but a loss of everlasting life.
    In that case, we had better make sure we are well armed... and on the right side.
    (Ephesians 6:11, 12) 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
    (Acts 5:39) but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”
    (2 Corinthians 5:20) Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”

    Imagine the ambassadors of Christ were sent out, to reconcile his enemies to him. ...They said to him, "We do not know who you are. We will not make peace with you."
    What do you think will happen to them?
    That;s what it's all about, Artist. That's what written.
    (Hebrews 10:31) . . . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Whose side are you on.

    Wisdom is prove righteous by all it's children, or works. Matthew 11:19

    Could you elaborate on this? I don't get you, sorry.
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you ask this.

    What's an entity?

    Sorry about that. I thought you were saying something different earlier, so I was just encouraging you to be sure of what you were saying.
    It wasn't meant to be sarcastic, but I understand how you might see it that way.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    How would you apply the word essence to your example?

    Thanks. I just thought nature was a more distinct word than essence (and force etc) when used in a religious context.

    It does. I see it quite often with many christians who, by default, feel everyone can understand things such as "the glory of god, who moves across the waters..." or "he shed blood for me and I'm washed in his love." Personally, it's easier for me to understand big concepts when experienced and/or broken down. I would think that's pretty much a human thing, but everyone gets things differently.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    So, that's a yes?

    I would ask Paul the same thing if he stated his belief in a manner that discredit people who disagree with him.

    It's very hard because every single one of you have different interpretations of what scripture says-and everyone-as well as you-tend to justify your interpretation (or say it is not, but the truth) by scripture as if the same verse each of you quote should mean something different depending on the christian who says it.

    Interpretations isn't a bad thing. It just means that you are not Paul or John and that your relationship with christ is personal to you. Hence, why your views would be different than your christian peer cause you identify with scripture differently based on culture and understanding of language and application back when that you all consider relevant in the 21st century. Given that gap, no one can confirm to Paul if what he said was how you guys interpret it (and the language in which it was spoken). So, it's belief, opinion, interpretation, not fact. Paul isn't here to confirm what you said. So, since I can't ask Paul, I ask you.

    They believe jesus, creator, and spirit are one in nature. How they express it is not the key here. It's the context in which they express it. Saying "jesus is god" can mean so many things without proper biblical context.
    Once you get out of what "christians denominations say" it will hopefully make more sense.


    What do you mean jesus being all over the different christian denominations? (Without quotations)

    All denominations I've been to, christ has always been the head (your second question). Which denominations does not put christ and scriptures at the head of the priority of their behavior and faith?
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh good. :D

    Can you explain what you mean by the spirit is god's grace and love.
    I don't want to assume you are saying the holy spirit is God's grace and love.

    How do I define force?
    Hard to describe it, except by examples.
    We have the description here... Force - Wikipedia
    ...and here...
    • n.
      The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power.
    • n.
      Power made operative against resistance; exertion.
    In describing spirit, we can think of force, in a number of ways. For example, the force of wind, breath, and even the force of life - what keeps us alive, and breathing.
    Holy spirit is also a force - God's active force. That is, it's a dynamic energy, that's always active, and emits from God.
    It's not his power, but he certainly becomes all powerful by means of his holy spirit, or active force.

    For example, a powerful person may be able to crush a brick, with his hands.
    However, if you place the brick six feet away, the powerful person is powerless against the brick.

    God's power is awesome, and no matter the distance, he can crush anything - that due to his holy spirit, which we can describe as the most powerful force... or energy, if you like... in the universe.

    Jesus likened it to God's finger because it is what God uses to accomplish anything he wants... anywhere.
    (Matthew 12:28) But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
    (Luke 11:20) . . . But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was wondering if you use context and your own words to describe your belief or quote literal word for word from scripture only?

    I don't know Paul and never met Jesus, so I can't confirm what they say just what you say, they said. I know you're not Paul, so was wondering in your own words.

    I don't know. I was going by your question on #24 when you asked if I thought the holy spirit were an entity.

    Actually, if you relate this to the bible it's the same thing. Reading it doesn't give you tone of voice and most of us don't have cultural and linguistic context. So, that's why there are different interpretations and reactions to them.
     
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Force sounds new age. I'd use spirit for the same definition above. Spirit of life.

    "those qualities regarded as forming the definitive or typical elements in the character of a person, nation, or group or in the thought and attitudes of a particular period."

    or i.e. the spirit of his people

    "an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms" I like this definition. Definition of SPIRIT

    Force sounds like Star Wars.
     
  18. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    John 10:28-30 & John 10:37-38.

    One in Agreement according to works. If the lesser does not do the works or is subservient to the works of the greater then do not believe the lesser.

    --------------

    Most High or God of Abraham is Supreme Authority and Will. The Holy Spirit and only begotten Son aren't; neither are they Possessor of Heaven and Earth but are one in agreement with he who is and bear record in heaven with him.

    Both Holy Spirit and only Begotten Son are Possessions;

    Jas 1:17
     
  19. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Yes I have read. A husband and a wife are two different people but make up one family. There is no "person" named God. There is a family named God. That family has two different "persons", a father and a son. One God family, of two persons. I know you have trouble seeing this because Satan has spread his false ideas and blinded people to seeing the truth.
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No.
    I hope you took your time reading what I posted.
    Joseph said, interpretation belongs to God.
    I believe interpretation is God's. It's not mine.
    God's word has the correct interpretation.

    Can you give me an example of what you consider "stated his belief in a manner that discredit people who disagree with him".

    Do you think the apostles did not have to deal with similar situations?
    What about Jesus... did he not have to take a stand on the side of truth against those who corrupted or adulterated it?
    Why do you think it would be any different today?
    Do you think Jesus and his apostles should have kept silent, or said, "We agree to disagree" or "We agree."? What would you suggest?
    What do you think of John statements?
    (1 John 4:6) We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.

    I understand this is what you believe - your view. It is not what I believe.
    I don't think you are trying to say I should believe the same thing... are you?
    My Christian peers all share beliefs in common, and there is no divisions among us. We are united in worship wherever in the world we are.
    I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but true Christianity is not a club. It involves a way of life outlined by Jesus which we either com[ly with, or chose the broad road. Matthew 7:13, 14
    This way involves knowing, and remaining in the truth - not a truth... the truth. John 8:31, 32
    See this post for an explanation.

    There are millions of Jehovah's Witnesses, and about a third probably did not belong to anything related to Christian.
    What makes you think I got out of any "Christians denomination", and how would that change anything or make a difference from those who came from Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, or Meism?




    I understand you believe that. Which scripture(s) is that belief based on.
     
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