nPeace
Veteran Member
Why Trinitarian Arguments are not well founded
Argument #1 - Oneness
Some Trimitarians argue that when Jesus said, "I and the father are one", he was supporting the Trinity - namely, that the Father and son and holy spirit, are one entity.
However, to use this as a supporting argument is not reasonable, since the scriptures speak of oneness, on many occasions, and never meant one entity.
For example :
(John 17:11) . . .I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
(1 Corinthians 3:8) . . . the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work.
It would also be highly unreasonable to use such an argument since one would be ignoring hundreds of scriptures including ones such as :
(Deuteronomy 6:4) . . .“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
(Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,
(Mark 10:18) . . .Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.
(John 6:46) . . .Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father.
(John 6:57) . . .Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
(John 8:29, 38) . . .And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.”
. . .I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”
...and it can be reasonably concluded that based on the above scriptures, the oneness Jesus referred to, is oneness or unity in purpose. (John 17:20-24)
(John 5:36-38) 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.
Perhaps I don't really understand the argument Trinitarians are making, because to say that Jesus (the son) and God (the father) are the same entity, and then to say that the son is one entity, and the father is one (another) entity, does not add up. It's self defeating.
Perhaps one who believes such, can make it clear what they are really saying?
Argument #1 - Oneness
Some Trimitarians argue that when Jesus said, "I and the father are one", he was supporting the Trinity - namely, that the Father and son and holy spirit, are one entity.
However, to use this as a supporting argument is not reasonable, since the scriptures speak of oneness, on many occasions, and never meant one entity.
For example :
(John 17:11) . . .I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
(1 Corinthians 3:8) . . . the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work.
It would also be highly unreasonable to use such an argument since one would be ignoring hundreds of scriptures including ones such as :
(Deuteronomy 6:4) . . .“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
(Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,
(Mark 10:18) . . .Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God.
(John 6:46) . . .Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father.
(John 6:57) . . .Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
(John 8:29, 38) . . .And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.”
. . .I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”
...and it can be reasonably concluded that based on the above scriptures, the oneness Jesus referred to, is oneness or unity in purpose. (John 17:20-24)
(John 5:36-38) 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.
Perhaps I don't really understand the argument Trinitarians are making, because to say that Jesus (the son) and God (the father) are the same entity, and then to say that the son is one entity, and the father is one (another) entity, does not add up. It's self defeating.
Perhaps one who believes such, can make it clear what they are really saying?