"Top Ten Shocking Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses"

[Hockeycowboy]

So you didn't even listen to what he said, yet you imply he wasn't objective and even say he was wrong. *sheeesh!*

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How do you think I came to that conclusion? I've read his drivel before! And yes, it's filled with half-truths...quarter-truths?.... as he expounds on the falsehoods over the facts.

Again, as was mentioned by @Katzpur , you wouldn't expect to find objectivity about Jesus, by asking Judah's Iscariot!

 

[Skwim]

How do you think I came to that conclusion? I've read his drivel before! And yes, it's filled with half-truths...quarter-truths?.... as he expounds on the falsehoods over the facts.

So I'll ask again, EXACTLY what did he say that is wrong? If you can't come up with anything I'll just conclude your blowing bitter smoke because he revealed something embarrassing about the JW religion.

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[Skwim]

Yes. I am prejudiced.
So....is the guy in this video a JW or not? If he is, then you have poisoned the well pretty thoroughly by characterizing those beliefs as 'shocking,' in an attempt to prejudice the viewers.

I find that sort of thing to be underhanded at best.

It is not my characterization but that of the video. Please note the quotation marks around the statement in the title.

"Rule 1. Use double quotation marks to set off a direct (word-for-word) quotation."
source
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So when you see a statement set between quotation marks it means the words are not that of the author of the piece, but of someone else. Quotation marks are also used to set off the dialog of characters in works of both fiction and nonfiction.

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[Hockeycowboy]

So I'll ask again, EXACTLY what did he say that is wrong? If you can't come up with anything I'll just consider your blowing bitter smoke.

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First of all, are you talking about the video you posted? Or about the 'jwsurvey - Cedar' blog? That's what I'm referring to.

As I stated, I've read his "bitter smoke" and lies in the past.

Why should I subject myself to more?

If you mean your OP, that seems ok. But there are plenty of other Scriptures -- as @Deeje pointed out -- to support those beliefs.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That actor played evil to the hilt, imo!

BTW, I like your signature line...it is unique and thought provoking. (Another opinion, I guess.)

Yeah I'll admit I'm a Star Wars fanboy...Thanks again regarding the signature.

 

[Skwim]

First of all, are you talking about the video you posted? Or about the 'jwsurvey - Cedar' blog? That's what I'm referring to.

As I stated, I've read his "bitter smoke" and lies in the past.

Why should I subject myself to more?

If you mean your OP, that seems ok. But there are plenty of other Scriptures -- as @Deeje pointed out -- to support those beliefs.

Err . . . I've been under the impression you were talking about the video, but going back and reading your post (#20) it's obvious you were not.

Please accept my apology for not paying better attention and leading us both down a fruitless path.

Skwim

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[dianaiad]

How can you claim to have a neutral, balanced view if you never learn about criticisms or cons to the pros? I can understand wanting to get both sides of a story, but only getting one side, either side, couldn't be seen as objective imo.

There is no such thing as a neutral position in religion. No. Such.Thing. Nobody looks at religious beliefs with objectivity. We all, every one of us, come to this stuff with our own opinions and convictions, and it is THESE to which we compare what we learn.

So you have your own opinions about what is 'true,'

..................and you have the believer's idea about what he thinks is 'true.'

That's all one needs to make decisions about religion, unless one is so unsure of ones own brain that someone else has to load you up with an additional set of prejudices.

Great googly moogly; depending on someone you already KNOW doesn't like the target belief system (if they liked it, they'd be believers) to give you an objective and fair review?

Just how much sense does that make?

True, the believer will be biased towards his own beliefs, but then you are biased towards yours. It evens out.

 

[dianaiad]

It is not my characterization but that of the video. Please note the quotation marks around the statement in the title.

"Rule 1. Use double quotation marks to set off a direct (word-for-word) quotation."
source
​

So when you see a statement set between quotation marks it means the words are not that of the author of the piece, but of someone else. Quotation marks are also used to set off the dialog of characters in works of both fiction and nonfiction.

.

.​

that's nice....and doesn't invalidate my point at all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Err . . . I've been under the impression you were talking about the video, but going back and reading your post (#20) it's obvious you were not.

Please accept my apology for not paying better attention and leading us both down a fruitless path.

Skwim

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Mine, too! I am sorry!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Skwim, you just raised an awareness in me of what I'm doing, and I have to thank you.

I've been a JW now for quite a while (over 30 years), and I've experienced many verbal attacks -- two that were physical, even. I'm so used to it, I've come to expect it.
I need to react differently....really, apply 2 Timothy 2:24.

I have failed. But I'll try again.
(You know, years ago (in the '40's & '50's), JW's would carry plackards -- sandwich signs -- that read, "Religion is a Snare and a Racket"! It's like they looked for fights! But that's totally opposite now. Thank goodness!)
We're encouraged to look for those interested...and not get riled!

Again, I apologise.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@Skwim, you just raised an awareness in me of what I'm doing, and I have to thank you.

I've been a JW now for quite a while (over 30 years), and I've experienced many verbal attacks -- two that were physical, even. I'm so used to it, I've come to expect it.
I need to react differently....really, apply 2 Timothy 2:24.

I have failed. But I'll try again.
(You know, years ago (in the '40's & '50's), JW's would carry plackards -- sandwich signs -- that read, "Religion is a Snare and a Racket"! It's like they looked for fights! But that's totally opposite now. Thank goodness!)
We're encouraged to look for those interested...and not get riled!

Again, I apologise.

Hey @Hockeycowboy, you and I may have a vast canyon between our beliefs, but I want you to know that I also experienced physical violence while with JW (dogs released on us while going door to door) and I firmly believe that it's unacceptable behavior to say the least. I hope you never feel like you have to expect violence from all of us on the other side of the divide. I would stand for you if I saw it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hey @Hockeycowboy, you and I may have a vast canyon between our beliefs, but I want you to know that I also experienced physical violence while with JW (dogs released on us while going door to door) and I firmly believe that it's unacceptable behavior to say the least. I hope you never feel like you have to expect violence from all of us on the other side of the divide. I would stand for you if I saw it.

Thank you, ADA.

And I'd help you, if you ever needed it.

 

[`mud]

One thing about being an atheist,
we don't believe any part of it !
But...I try to believe in their beliefs,
I try to find the reasons for the beliefs.
It doesn't really work, but I really try !
But...Jesus made some really good points,
if they were really his, and not Saul's or Matt's.
I'm going to find some sand to scratch in,
see you on the beach.

 

[Shad]

I also experienced physical violence while with JW (dogs released on us while going door to door) and I firmly believe that it's unacceptable behavior to say the least.

Completely agree. A simple request to JWs to stop visiting one's home is accepted from what I know. Heck a neighbour of mine just has a paper on her door about no solicitation by business and religion. JW skip her door without issues, Letting dogs loose is nuts.

 

[`mud]

When JW's knock on my door, and I'm not eating, I ask them if they want to come in, and add that I'm an atheist and if they want to practice on me, come on in. We've had some very interesting conversations.
Of course, we never agree, but interesting.

 

[siti]

When JW's knock on my door, and I'm not eating, I ask them if they want to come in, and add that I'm an atheist and if they want to practice on me, come on in. We've had some very interesting conversations.
Of course, we never agree, but interesting.

A long time ago, I did the same thing - I wasn't an atheist of course, but neither was I particularly drawn to the JW beliefs. Cutting a long story short, after a couple of years of inviting them in for interesting conversations, they convinced me enough to become one of them and I was a faithful JW (though admittedly a privately somewhat doubtful one) for over a decade. I had been given a head start having been raised in a Christian family, I was programmed to reject evolution and even though I chose science (chemistry specifically) as my "trade" I somehow managed to avoid looking too deeply at the evidence. It wasn't that that floored my faith as a JW - it was deeply held doubts about early 20th century 'fulfillment' of specific features of prophecy (especially in Daniel) that proved to be the thin end of the wedge - they just seemed too contrived and apparently convenient...Of course I wasn't the first (or the last) to doubt these - even the brother of the one time President of the WT Society, Ray Franz, who was a member of the Governing Body, left the Bethel because of his doubts regarding 1914 (etc.) and was subsequently disfellowshipped.

Interestingly, the WT has given itself another 70-80 max. by introducing the "overlapping generation" doctrine meaning that "the generation" that will "see" the visible "return of Christ" will be made up of those who were alive when the "anointed Christians" who were alive in 1914 (like Ray Franz's brother Fred - who died in 1992) were still alive (if you can follow all that). Since the oldest humans usually die around the 110-120 mark, I'm guessing that they have a time around 2092 in mind for the very latest possible time of armageddon - or complete abandonment of the 1914 doctrine - whichever comes first.

At this point, I know which option my money is on - but if I do happen to still be alive in 2092 (I'll be 129) I might - perhaps - change my mind again.

Anyway, all that said - I don't think there is anything particularly shocking about a religion thinking it is the only one that has the truth...

...their New World Translation is as good as any modern translation and it does correctly re-instate the divine name where the tetragammaton יהוה appears in the OT and where the NT quotes from it...I see no reason to object to their translation of the Bible any more than anyone else's...

...as for the "invisible return" in 1914...well, the JWs are certainly not on their own in having Jesus returning one way or another that is not nearly so obvious as the rest of us might have hoped for...ask the Adventists and the Baha'is (yes both of them) about 1844...ask the Mormons about what Christ has been up to since the 1st century...

...I'm with @Deeje on the Michael/Jesus thing - I think they have a better scriptural case for Jesus as Michael than the more orthodox Christians have for Jesus as God...

...and @Deeje is also correct in stating that Revelation does indeed indicate two classes of people - one can argue about whether the 144,000 are of natural Israel or a spiritual group, but it is not reasonable to deny that these are separate and distinct in some way from the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues..." (Revelation 7:4-9)...just because most Christians fail to notice this or explain it some other way doesn't make a spiritual interpretation "shocking"...

...the blood issue is arguable (I mean on scriptural grounds) - but I reckon there have been far more shocking rejections of medical procedures on religious grounds (Christian Scientists for example)...

...the 7th (salvation) and 8th (governments as Satan's tools) points are well answered by @Deeje - I don't necessarily agree but as far as scripture is concerned I don't see how any Bible believer could object...

...Jesus probably died on a stake as opposed to a cross - unless you are a Christian who knows almost nothing about the Bible I don't see why that should be "shocking"...

...and finally, not celebrating pagan festivals disguised as devout Christian occasions but really just excuses for rampant consumerism and over-consumption still gets my vote - I still don't join in those things even though I have abandoned religious reasons for doing so...shocking or not - you're never going to get a Christmas card from me!



...

 

[Deeje]

A long time ago, I did the same thing - I wasn't an atheist of course, but neither was I particularly drawn to the JW beliefs. Cutting a long story short, after a couple of years of inviting them in for interesting conversations, they convinced me enough to become one of them and I was a faithful JW (though admittedly a privately somewhat doubtful one) for over a decade.

I am assuming that we are going back a fair few decades then? You know, I see in your words the reasons why you left.
When we become dedicated, baptized disciples of Jesus Christ, we accept without reservation what Jesus taught....and all of his teachings were based on OT scripture. The Revelation given to John has beasts that mirror the beasts of Daniel's prophesies. Apparently, you had reservation right from the get go. You speak of the thin edge of the wedge.....its all satan needs to drive it in and claim another victim.

I had been given a head start having been raised in a Christian family, I was programmed to reject evolution and even though I chose science (chemistry specifically) as my "trade" I somehow managed to avoid looking too deeply at the evidence. It wasn't that that floored my faith as a JW - it was deeply held doubts about early 20th century 'fulfillment' of specific features of prophecy (especially in Daniel) that proved to be the thin end of the wedge - they just seemed too contrived and apparently convenient...Of course I wasn't the first (or the last) to doubt these - even the brother of the one time President of the WT Society, Ray Franz, who was a member of the Governing Body, left the Bethel because of his doubts regarding 1914 (etc.) and was subsequently disfellowshipped.

Its a funny thing about science and especially the evolutionary branch.....in about the last five decades, people have come to revere science and ignore the Bible. People trusted what the Bible said in days gone by, and then science made the Bible look like a dinosaur in the lives of progressive, modern thinkers. People then began to trust science the way they once trusted the Bible.....no one seemed to notice when science had actual proof for something or when they were just suggesting stuff that had no real foundation except that it was thought up by a "scientific" mind. Even a cursory glance at articles on evolution will reveal the tell tale language of suggestion...inference...and downright guesswork. Will the average person see it?......how could they when even the average scientist can't see it? Its called propaganda and it is used so successfully by God's adversary playing on inflated egos that it flies under the radar. Those so affected castigate the "creationists" for believing myths...yet they hand "myths" onto their own adoring audience who cannot discern science fact from science fiction.

Doubting is nothing new....look at Thomas. In all the Bible, this is what he is known for. It isn't the doubt, per se that undoes the doubter....it is who and what feeds the doubt and for how long. Just as who and what feeds the truth will fortify faith...who and what feeds the doubt will tear it down.....and those with a head start in the "doubt" department, are already vulnerable....easy pickings. Do you not see the problem?

Ray Franz is a typical example of one who wanted his own ideas promoted. When that didn't happen, he took matters into his own hands and tried to persuade others to his point of view. If you remember, creating division in the congregation is one thing that Jehovah detests. (Proverbs 6:16-19) Franz was not disfellowshipped for his doubts, but for his ego causing division in the ranks. A bruised ego can do enormous damage, especially when one is in a position of oversight. There is no-one man band in Jehovah's organization and a few bad apples that are turfed out ensure that the rest aren't contaminated by the rot. We lost nothing when Mr Franz and his ego were ejected.

You see, even if a person is right about something, it is up to Jehovah through his son to provide food at the proper time. I know of some who went out of the faith over the translation of a word or a phrase....only to find some time later that the problem was rectified in God's own time and way. The ones who burned their bridges were miffed, but had nowhere to go. They just got angry and voiced it all publicly....they are free to do so. But where are all the ex-JW's forming themselves into the "right" religion? They are conspicuous by their absence. None of them can agree on anything either, making themselves exactly like Christendom.

Interestingly, the WT has given itself another 70-80 max. by introducing the "overlapping generation" doctrine meaning that "the generation" that will "see" the visible "return of Christ" will be made up of those who were alive when the "anointed Christians" who were alive in 1914 (like Ray Franz's brother Fred - who died in 1992) were still alive (if you can follow all that). Since the oldest humans usually die around the 110-120 mark, I'm guessing that they have a time around 2092 in mind for the very latest possible time of armageddon - or complete abandonment of the 1914 doctrine - whichever comes first.

At this point, I know which option my money is on - but if I do happen to still be alive in 2092 (I'll be 129) I might - perhaps - change my mind again.

At the end of the day, the only ones to whom that matters, are the anointed. I couldn't care less for the simple reason that knowing the starting date of the "last days" doesn't alter the fact that no one knows when it ends. God even kept that information from his own son at one point. If we are in service to God with forever in view, then what does it matter how long God takes to bring in the rulership of his Kingdom, as long as we are doing what Christ commanded us to do, that is all that is needed. We haven't stopped....in fact we have expanded our methods of preaching with astonishing results. Our website is now the main means of people acquiring information about who we are and what we believe. We no longer have to manifest the miracle of speaking in tongues because the website caters to almost every known language. Publications, including the Watchtower, which has not missed a publication for over 100 years continue to be read by millions of people. Books, brochures and magazine articles are available for all to view or to download. Jehovah said he would make an abundance of knowledge available at this "time of the end" and he has certainly lived up to his promise. He also said he would speed things up....

Anyway, all that said - I don't think there is anything particularly shocking about a religion thinking it is the only one that has the truth...

...their New World Translation is as good as any modern translation and it does correctly re-instate the divine name where the tetragammaton יהוה appears in the OT and where the NT quotes from it...I see no reason to object to their translation of the Bible any more than anyone else's...

...as for the "invisible return" in 1914...well, the JWs are certainly not on their own in having Jesus returning one way or another that is not nearly so obvious as the rest of us might have hoped for...ask the Adventists and the Baha'is (yes both of them) about 1844...ask the Mormons about what Christ has been up to since the 1st century...

...I'm with @Deeje on the Michael/Jesus thing - I think they have a better scriptural case for Jesus as Michael than the more orthodox Christians have for Jesus as God...

...and @Deeje is also correct in stating that Revelation does indeed indicate two classes of people - one can argue about whether the 144,000 are of natural Israel or a spiritual group, but it is not reasonable to deny that these are separate and distinct in some way from the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues..." (Revelation 7:4-9)...just because most Christians fail to notice this or explain it some other way doesn't make a spiritual interpretation "shocking"...

...the blood issue is arguable (I mean on scriptural grounds) - but I reckon there have been far more shocking rejections of medical procedures on religious grounds (Christian Scientists for example)...

...the 7th (salvation) and 8th (governments as Satan's tools) points are well answered by @Deeje - I don't necessarily agree but as far as scripture is concerned I don't see how any Bible believer could object...

...Jesus probably died on a stake as opposed to a cross - unless you are a Christian who knows almost nothing about the Bible I don't see why that should be "shocking"...

...and finally, not celebrating pagan festivals disguised as devout Christian occasions but really just excuses for rampant consumerism and over-consumption still gets my vote - I still don't join in those things even though I have abandoned religious reasons for doing so...shocking or not - you're never going to get a Christmas card from me!

Nice to see that you have not abandoned all that my brothers taught you.

 

[siti]

...even if a person is right about something, it is up to Jehovah through his son to provide food at the proper time.

That I used to believe...but I'm not angry or "miffed" as you put it because "new insights" have "clarified" some of my questions - I swallowed my pride a long time ago - long before I became a JW - I know I might be wrong...I just feel more comfortable being wrong by myself than leading others into error.

I couldn't care less for the simple reason that knowing the starting date of the "last days" doesn't alter the fact that no one knows when it ends.

And that too! I remember being chastised by well-meaning brothers and sisters for suggesting that the "end" might be twenty or thirty years off yet...and suggesting that even if it was 50 years off that wouldn't change anything for me...that was in the early 90s so close to 30 years has passed and so have a few of those brothers and sisters - some of them lived their entire lives with the hope that they would be among the "millions now living" who would "never die". But they did die. They didn't lack faith - they simply followed what they were taught. And they fully accepted that they knew the "starting date of the last days" - and that - for most of their lives at least - and for the early part of my JW period in the 1980s - "this generation" was the one that was alive in 1914. That's changed twice since then of course and probably will ultimately revert to being something that Jesus intended to apply to the "this generation" of his own time in the 1st century and nothing to do with 20th or 21st century Christians at all. But the GB and the Faithful Slave lose their divinely appointed status if 1914 is wrong...that's what got Ray Franz into trouble in the first place - it was nothing to do with his ego, it was to do with the facts of history...1914 just doesn't fit and to make to fit you have to rewrite ancient history. WWI and the Spanish Flu were lucky breaks for the WT - had it not been for those turns of events, the overriding image of that year would be a group of offbeat religious people waiting expectantly on Brooklyn Bridge in a pale parody of the Millerite Great Disappointment of 70 years earlier that spawned the various offshoot "Adventist" movements including the WT. Now the goalposts have moved again - "overlapping generations" buys another 7 decades for the leadership and another couple of generations to live and die in hopeful "expectation postponed".

 

[Deeje]

That I used to believe...but I'm not angry or "miffed" as you put it because "new insights" have "clarified" some of my questions - I swallowed my pride a long time ago - long before I became a JW - I know I might be wrong...I just feel more comfortable being wrong by myself than leading others into error.

That is, of course, your choice. But if you know you might be wrong, what have you done to make sure of your position one way or the other? Your entire eternal future is at stake in this. Jehovah is an incentive oriented God who holds out rewards for efforts in this contest with the devil for the hearts and minds on mankind. He even rewarded his son for faithful services rendered in obedience to his Father.

I remember being chastised by well-meaning brothers and sisters for suggesting that the "end" might be twenty or thirty years off yet...and suggesting that even if it was 50 years off that wouldn't change anything for me...that was in the early 90s so close to 30 years has passed and so have a few of those brothers and sisters - some of them lived their entire lives with the hope that they would be among the "millions now living" who would "never die". But they did die. They didn't lack faith - they simply followed what they were taught. And they fully accepted that they knew the "starting date of the last days" - and that - for most of their lives at least - and for the early part of my JW period in the 1980s - "this generation" was the one that was alive in 1914.

I became interested in the truth at the end of the 60's and began my study in the early 70's. Baptized in '72. 1975 was looming and there was much excitement about what it might bring.....but it was always presented as a "maybe" never as a prophesy. When it came and went, we saw Jehovah sift out those who were serving a year, and not their God for the rest of forever. A selfish view of things will never create the kind of faith that withstands these tests of our integrity...and our motives for worshipping our God have to be more than "what's in it for me".

We are to live as though the end could come tomorrow.....that is just being mentally prepared to face what is coming....but we are not told to do anything silly. It would be such a pity to go through that "great tribulation" and not have anything to look forward to at the end of it. Seriously, what's the worst that can happen to anyone if there's no God? Now compare that to if there is....and what the Bible says is true?

That's changed twice since then of course and probably will ultimately revert to being something that Jesus intended to apply to the "this generation" of his own time in the 1st century and nothing to do with 20th or 21st century Christians at all. But the GB and the Faithful Slave lose their divinely appointed status if 1914 is wrong...that's what got Ray Franz into trouble in the first place - it was nothing to do with his ego, it was to do with the facts of history...1914 just doesn't fit and to make to fit you have to rewrite ancient history.

But they do if you use the same method that the Jews used to calculate the time of Messiah's appearance. He was right on time.....the same calculations bring us to 1914. WW1 and the Spanish flu epidemic were not just a fluke. Many other parts of the sign are in evidence all through these last days.....earthquakes are increasing with devastating results and because of the increase in crime and violence, "love'" has all but disappeared from the world. People have lost the ability to trust because all the people and agencies that they trusted have all let them down.....exposing themselves as only greedy for profit and power. Totally corrupted.

And where is Mr Franz today? Is he the true Jehovah's Witness and is he fulfilling all that Jesus told his disciples to do "in all the inhabited earth"? As far as I can tell, all he did was air his grievances in a book. Might have earned him some $$$ but no Brownie points with God. He more fits the description of "the evil slave" beating up on his fellow slaves. People will believe whatever they want.

WWI and the Spanish Flu were lucky breaks for the WT - had it not been for those turns of events, the overriding image of that year would be a group of offbeat religious people waiting expectantly on Brooklyn Bridge in a pale parody of the Millerite Great Disappointment of 70 years earlier that spawned the various offshoot "Adventist" movements including the WT. Now the goalposts have moved again - "overlapping generations" buys another 7 decades for the leadership and another couple of generations to live and die in hopeful "expectation postponed".

Ah yes, the great disappointment.....there would be more, but then spiritual babies need tangible things in order to grow. Just as the first Christians needed the miracles to hang onto to lead them to the faith, they were not permitted to keep those traits of a child. When they had outgrown the "milk" they needed more solid food in order to grow. The miracles ceased as Paul said they would, to be replaced with the more important spiritual aspects of "faith, hope and love".

In our infancy we too were holding onto what seem to be childish traits in the beginning. I hear some of these stories and cringe because now we know so much more than what we did even a couple of decades ago. Growth is like that, but unless you grow, you either stay stunted or you die of 'malnutrition'.

Daniel's prophesy on "the time of the end" said that God would make an abundance of knowledge available at this time and he would give insight and understanding along with the knowledge to his people. He said he would "cleanse, whiten and refine" them, but the wicked would continue on in their ways, not cleansed, whitened or refined. Each are processes requiring time and effort.

As I said, the truth is out there and the knowledge is hidden from no one.....it is rejected by those who hear it but do not respond to it. It is attractive to those who are seeking answers to their many questions.
And that is as it should be to fulfill Matthew 7:13-14. There are only two roads.....we are all on either one or the other.....so decisions have to be made as the end draws ever closer. The door will inevitably close, but which side of that door will we be on? That's our choice.

 

[`mud]

Well Matt was probably wrong about the gates.
But there are a lot of paths on this travel to finality.
And many forks along these paths of life's stuff.
If there are `gates`, how does one choose, at all ?
How does one know to choose a direction at all.
No, there are no absolute `gates` at the thereat.
The `end time` is within one's own time given,
and then will be given the real choices of belief.
There will be many forks along those paths, many,
but one won't have the option of really choosing.
One's choices are all determined by life itself,
and one's forks will be chosen by one's death.
There is only one last fork in life's ending Stuff,
that to return to the revolving `gate` of spirit.