To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

[JerryMyers]

People like to use that "lying pen of the scribes" verse when there are parts of the Bible they want to deny.

Not really. That’s what God said in your Bible which proves that the scripture was edited even in Jeremiah’s time unless you are saying God is lying.

God Himself said that He cannot fully fit in a house made by man, but at the time of Jesus, there was only one Abrahamic faith and the Temple was called the house of God and even God calls it that in the OT, as well as Jesus in the NT.
These days the real house of God is the Church of Christ in which God lives in every believer. But of course that does not mean that God can fully fit into each believer, because we are not big enough.

If you are referring to Judaism as the only Abrahamic faith at the time of Jesus, then, you are right because Jesus NEVER start Christianity, in fact, he would NOT know what is Christianity or the term ‘Christian’.

No, I have plenty of Biblical evidence for that. You like to use the Word of John 1:1 because you can twist the meaning of that and ignore all the other evidence in the Bible that Jesus has existed before the creation.

Not really. The term ‘Word of God’ means the word was spoken by God, only the Christians twisted it and preach ‘Word of God’ is Jesus, which is ridiculous as the term ‘Word of God’ can be found in many other passages, which if you understand ‘Word of God’ as Jesus, made those passages sounded comical! For example, in Matthew 15:6, we read “you nullify the W/word (logos) of God for the sake of your tradition” which means you nullify the Command of God for the sake of your tradition, NOT that ‘you nullify Jesus’, and in Hebrew 13:7 “leaders who spoke the W/word (logos) of God” which means leaders who spoke what God had spoken, NOT that the leaders who spoke Jesus!!

You follow the words of other men, NOT Jesus!

 

[JerryMyers]

As I said, the Messiah is the "horn" in verse 27 imo.

You mean in verse 17 and verse 24 of Psalm 89??

The ‘horn’ in Psalm 89 is a reference to ‘strength’ and it does NOT change the fact that Psalm 89:22-23 denies the death of Jesus.

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Can’t you recognize a figurative speech when you see one??

Blood is a reference to life - “But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat” – Deuteronomy 12:23.

In other words, Jesus is saying his whole life is dedicated to bring people out of their sinning ways and guiding them to the (everlasting) life. He’s NOT saying he must die for the forgiveness of sin for all mankind.

Luke 24:46 And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.…
Jesus was plainly speaking about His own death and resurrection and the Church went out from Jerusalem and preached that to the world, the gospel of repentance and forgiveness in the name of Jesus through believe in Jesus and His atoning sacrifice.

Nope, he’s NOT saying that and that’s why in Luke 24:47, he said “… repentance for the forgiveness of sin….”, NOT his death for the forgiveness of sin.

You follow the words of other men, NOT Jesus!

 

[Brian2]

Not really. That’s what God said in your Bible which proves that the scripture was edited even in Jeremiah’s time unless you are saying God is lying.

Really. You use it to show parts of the Bible are probably not true and others use it to show other parts probably aren't true. It's a good verse for people who want to deny whichever parts of the OT they choose.
But you do not know if those parts were corrected or which parts the scribes had lied about.

If you are referring to Judaism as the only Abrahamic faith at the time of Jesus, then, you are right because Jesus NEVER start Christianity, in fact, he would NOT know what is Christianity or the term ‘Christian’.

I'm referring to the Temple being the only place that was the "house of God" when Jesus was 12 years old and being in the house of His Father, the Temple of God.

Not really. The term ‘Word of God’ means the word was spoken by God, only the Christians twisted it and preach ‘Word of God’ is Jesus, which is ridiculous as the term ‘Word of God’ can be found in many other passages, which if you understand ‘Word of God’ as Jesus, made those passages sounded comical! For example, in Matthew 15:6, we read “you nullify the W/word (logos) of God for the sake of your tradition” which means you nullify the Command of God for the sake of your tradition, NOT that ‘you nullify Jesus’, and in Hebrew 13:7 “leaders who spoke the W/word (logos) of God” which means leaders who spoke what God had spoken, NOT that the leaders who spoke Jesus!!

You follow the words of other men, NOT Jesus!

What do you think of these verses?
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory had with You before the world existed.

John 1:30 This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Jesus truly did die from the sin of all mankind. But remember the pair pleading that was let down through the ceiling. Wherever Jesus healed somebody their sins were also forgiven.
That means the fullness of the atonement atonement is to bring us back into That means the fullness of the atonement is to bring us back into The complete restoration of wholeness Before God. What does this mean.
As in psalms 82. 6, John 10:31-37 and Galations 4:7
So the atonement perfects us before God. As in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 verse 21 we are the righteousness before God.
So we were created in his image to live for his image to manifest God and us as in John John 14:20.
You see there is a trinity.

 

[Brian2]

You mean in verse 17 and verse 24 of Psalm 89??

The ‘horn’ in Psalm 89 is a reference to ‘strength’ and it does NOT change the fact that Psalm 89:22-23 denies the death of Jesus.

So you deny that prophecy is about Jesus because it denies His death and you also deny that He died.
Psalm 89:22-23 does not say that he would not be killed but if we go on in the Psalm we can see in verses 38-45 that this King will be rejected and killed by his people and that after that God will be angry with them (46-51)
This is not King David who lived a long life and died in bed.
Imo the horn (strength) of David is the son that was going to come from him, the Messiah who calls God His Father and who is appointed to be the God's firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth. (verse 27)

Can’t you recognize a figurative speech when you see one??

Blood is a reference to life - “But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat” – Deuteronomy 12:23.

In other words, Jesus is saying his whole life is dedicated to bring people out of their sinning ways and guiding them to the (everlasting) life. He’s NOT saying he must die for the forgiveness of sin for all mankind.

If He did not then die and rise and if His disciples did not then go around preaching that He had died for the forgiveness of sins, you might have a case.

Nope, he’s NOT saying that and that’s why in Luke 24:47, he said “… repentance for the forgiveness of sin….”, NOT his death for the forgiveness of sin.

You follow the words of other men, NOT Jesus![/QUOTE]

Luke 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Yep that is what happened and the repentance for the forgiveness of sins was preached for those who believe in Jesus and what He did to win that forgiveness of sins for people.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Luke 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Yep that is what happened and the repentance for the forgiveness of sins was preached for those who believe in Jesus and what He did to win that forgiveness of sins for people.

It's just become a "mantra"..

If one believes in G-d and Jesus, then one should ask forgiveness for their sins as Jesus instructed us in the Lord's prayer.
..nothing to do with Jesus' death as such .. everything to do with believing Jesus to be the true Messiah.

 

[Brian2]

You mean in verse 17 and verse 24 of Psalm 89??

The ‘horn’ in Psalm 89 is a reference to ‘strength’ and it does NOT change the fact that Psalm 89:22-23 denies the death of Jesus.

Psalm 89:22-23 does not say that he would not be killed but if we go on in the Psalm we can see in verses 38-45 that this King will be rejected and killed by his people and that after that God will be angry with them (46-51)
This is not King David who lived a long life and died in bed.
Imo the horn (strength) of David is the son that was going to come from him, the Messiah who calls God His Father and who is appointed to be the God's firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth. (verse 27)

 

[Brian2]

It's just become a "mantra"..

If one believes in G-d and Jesus, then one should ask forgiveness for their sins as Jesus instructed us in the Lord's prayer.
..nothing to do with Jesus' death as such .. everything to do with believing Jesus to be the true Messiah.

Muslims and Baha'is deny the gospel message and yet say that Jesus is the true Messiah. What if your true Messiah is a false Messiah? I hope God respects your repentance only and is merciful. I accept God's forgiveness through Jesus, the one who fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah, which included suffering and dying and rising from the dead.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Muslims and Baha'is deny the gospel message..

I don't reject the Gospels..
I interpret them in light of the Qur'an which I also acknowledge as being true.

There are many different Christian interpretations, although the trinitarian one is uppermost.
It is a pity that Orthodox Christianity was established by political means.
I believe that G-d accepts our sincerity, whatever our creed .. but that does not absolve us from responsibility for our study of scripture.

 

[Brian2]

I don't reject the Gospels..
I interpret them in light of the Qur'an which I also acknowledge as being true.

There are many different Christian interpretations, although the trinitarian one is uppermost.
It is a pity that Orthodox Christianity was established by political means.
I believe that G-d accepts our sincerity, whatever our creed .. but that does not absolve us from responsibility for our study of scripture.

God probably accepts your sincerity even though I would have to be God to know how much sincerity God does accept. Is a sincere Nazi acceptable for example.
But really it would be hard to acknowledge the gospels and New Testament as being true as well as the Quran, since they teach some things that are complete opposites.
So really you acknowledge the Quran as being true and whatever the Quran says about Jesus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

it would be hard to acknowledge the gospels and New Testament as being true as well as the Quran, since they teach some things that are complete opposites.

I did not say that I think that every word of the Bible is completely accurate.

eg. the Gospel of John was included in the Bible cannon for its "Christology"

It is of a different style to the other Gospels, and starts with philosophical prose that is highly sectarian in nature.
Of course, you will probably deny that and hold a belief that the Bible is "Holy" and therefore can't be wrong.
G-d knows best why certain texts were chosen to be in the Bible.
There certainly were a lot of mistaken beliefs in the first few centuries after Jesus ascension .. and it was Gentiles and not Jews who established Orthodox creed.

We are free to believe whatever creed we like these days, unlike in the early days when Christians were fighting Christians over what we must believe.

 

[JerryMyers]

Really. You use it to show parts of the Bible are probably not true and others use it to show other parts probably aren't true. It's a good verse for people who want to deny whichever parts of the OT they choose.
But you do not know if those parts were corrected or which parts the scribes had lied about.

Really. The Bible you have today is a book of truth and lies and the lies were already there even in the days of Jeremiah.

The words of other people that are NOT aligned with the words of God or His prophets, including Jesus, are highly likely untrue.

I'm referring to the Temple being the only place that was the "house of God" when Jesus was 12 years old and being in the house of His Father, the Temple of God.

Maybe at that period of time when there was only one Abrahamic faith, but as the Abrahamic faith expanded and more houses of worship were built, they are all known as ‘House of God’.

What do you think of these verses?
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory had with You before the world existed.
John 1:30 This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

In John 17:5, Jesus was NOT praying about the past glory he had with God before the world existed as FALSELY preached by Trinitarians, BUT, he was praying for the glory as has been appointed in the plan and in the Mind of God before the world was even created.

We all ‘preexisted’ in the plan and in the Mind of God long before we were born. Likewise, it was God who appointed Jeremiah as a prophet before he was born - “Before I formed you in the womb before you were born I knew you I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” – Jeremiah 1:5

In John 1:30, John the Baptist was talking about the hierarchy of importance. Jesus came after John the Baptist but in terms of importance, Jesus surpassed John the Baptist that is, Jesus is ahead before John the Baptist.

In John 1:3, it’s not about Jesus, it’s about the ‘Word of God’ that is, the Commanding Word of God which creates everything, including the creation of Jesus. NOTHING gets created or came into existence UNLESS God Commands it. In other words, only through God's Commanding Word (the Word of God), nothing was made that has been made and that’s what John 1:3 is saying. I can also say the Word (of God) became Light because that’s how Light was created and that is, after God uttered, “Let there BE Light and there was Light”.

It is what Psalm 33:9 said – “For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm”.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

This is about God, NOT Jesus. Only God can give true light to everyone. God was already in the beginning but the world did not recognize Him that is, they rejected Him.

John 1:12-13 made it clear that Jesus is NOT the only S/son of God as those who accept God and believe in God are known as children of God.

 

[JerryMyers]

Jesus truly did die from the sin of all mankind. But remember the pair pleading that was let down through the ceiling. Wherever Jesus healed somebody their sins were also forgiven.

You misunderstood that passage, Jesus was not forgiving the sin of the man, he was, by God’s Will, healing the man.

That means the fullness of the atonement atonement is to bring us back into That means the fullness of the atonement is to bring us back into The complete restoration of wholeness Before God. What does this mean.
As in psalms 82. 6, John 10:31-37 and Galations 4:7
So the atonement perfects us before God. As in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 verse 21 we are the righteousness before God.
So we were created in his image to live for his image to manifest God and us as in John John 14:20.
You see there is a trinity.

Trinity is a man-made doctrine. It was never preached by any prophets of God, including Jesus.

 

[metis]

Trinity is a man-made doctrine. It was never preached by any prophets of God, including Jesus.

It's what's called a "theological construct", in this case an attempt to try and possibly explain the relationship between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The scriptures by themselves are not at all clear on this.

 

[JerryMyers]

So you deny that prophecy is about Jesus because it denies His death and you also deny that He died.
Psalm 89:22-23 does not say that he would not be killed but if we go on in the Psalm we can see in verses 38-45 that this King will be rejected and killed by his people and that after that God will be angry with them (46-51)
This is not King David who lived a long life and died in bed.
Imo the horn (strength) of David is the son that was going to come from him, the Messiah who calls God His Father and who is appointed to be the God's firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth. (verse 27)

Where does it say that Jesus will be killed in Psalm 89:38-51???

Psalm 89:22 clearly said God will NOT let his enemies get the better of him. So, if they managed to kill him, it means his enemies got the better of him. You think God was lying in Psalm 89:22-23??

If He did not then die and rise and if His disciples did not then go around preaching that He had died for the forgiveness of sins, you might have a case.

Can you show me the passage(s) from the Bible where his disciples go around preaching that Jesus had died for the forgiveness of sins?? If you can, you might have a case.

Luke 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
Yep that is what happened and the repentance for the forgiveness of sins was preached for those who believe in Jesus and what He did to win that forgiveness of sins for people.

Fact is, as recorded in your own Bible, Jesus NEVER said his death for the forgiveness of sin, BUT he did say repentance for the forgiveness of sin.

So, this comment of yours - ‘….for those who believe in Jesus and what He did to win that forgiveness of sins for people…’ are just accommodating words to ‘tailor-fit’ your false belief that Jesus died for the sin of man.

Fact is, Jesus did not die, he even said so himself.

You follow the words of other men, NOT Jesus!

 

[Brian2]

I did not say that I think that every word of the Bible is completely accurate.

eg. the Gospel of John was included in the Bible cannon for its "Christology"

It is of a different style to the other Gospels, and starts with philosophical prose that is highly sectarian in nature.
Of course, you will probably deny that and hold a belief that the Bible is "Holy" and therefore can't be wrong.
G-d knows best why certain texts were chosen to be in the Bible.

It was included because it was written by an apostle in the first century. Authenticity was important, not Christology. John's inspiration to write about things that others had not written came from God.
So yes I say that John's Gospel is true.

There certainly were a lot of mistaken beliefs in the first few centuries after Jesus ascension .. and it was Gentiles and not Jews who established Orthodox creed.

We are free to believe whatever creed we like these days, unlike in the early days when Christians were fighting Christians over what we must believe.

The mistaken beliefs existed alongside the true beliefs and the fight was one of ideas and not physical until political power came into it.
Some of the wrong beliefs can be seen in what the epistles were denying to be the truth. False apostles and teachers were fairly common it seems and the true Church was trying to combat the false ideas.
We know what the true Church is in part because of what survived as the true Church. God was with His Church to ensure it's survival.

 

[Brian2]

Really. The Bible you have today is a book of truth and lies and the lies were already there even in the days of Jeremiah.

The words of other people that are NOT aligned with the words of God or His prophets, including Jesus, are highly likely untrue.

But you don't even believe the words of Jesus.

Maybe at that period of time when there was only one Abrahamic faith, but as the Abrahamic faith expanded and more houses of worship were built, they are all known as ‘House of God’.

Jesus spoke when there was only one house of God, the Temple at Jerusalem, and He called it the house of His Father. At that time no doubt there were other temples all over the place that were thought of as the houses of God, but they were not houses of the true God.

In John 17:5, Jesus was NOT praying about the past glory he had with God before the world existed as FALSELY preached by Trinitarians, BUT, he was praying for the glory as has been appointed in the plan and in the Mind of God before the world was even created.

Jesus had that glory in the presence of God before the world existed it seems.
John 17:5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

In John 1:3, it’s not about Jesus, it’s about the ‘Word of God’ that is, the Commanding Word of God which creates everything, including the creation of Jesus. NOTHING gets created or came into existence UNLESS God Commands it. In other words, only through God's Commanding Word (the Word of God), nothing was made that has been made and that’s what John 1:3 is saying. I can also say the Word (of God) became Light because that’s how Light was created and that is, after God uttered, “Let there BE Light and there was Light”.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

This is about God, NOT Jesus. Only God can give true light to everyone. God was already in the beginning but the world did not recognize Him that is, they rejected Him.

John 1:12-13 made it clear that Jesus is NOT the only S/son of God as those who accept God and believe in God are known as children of God.

It sounds silly when you try to interpret things in a way that was obviously not intended. Maybe you should just say that Jesus did not say that, it was the opinion of men, and so you do not believe it.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Brian2]

Where does it say that Jesus will be killed in Psalm 89:38-51???

Psalm 89:22 clearly said God will NOT let his enemies get the better of him. So, if they managed to kill him, it means his enemies got the better of him. You think God was lying in Psalm 89:22-23??

Psalm 89:45 You have cut short the days of his youth;
you have covered him with a mantle of shame.
No enemies of Jesus got the better of Him. Jesus laid His life down and took it up again all by Himself.
John 10:17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

John's inspiration to write about things that others had not written came from God.

That is what you believe to be true.

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

..so G-d inspired an author to write the above, and was ascribed to John?
Apparently, it was common practice to ascribe texts to people, even if it contained material from more than one author.
The above is philosophical prose, and is not claimed to be what Jesus actually said. A Gospel containing something completely different could have been included in the cannon. The fact that it wasn't means very little.

The NT contains many accurate historical things about Jesus' ministry .. but it is peppered with the authors opinions .. many of the authors not even having met him.

Oh well.

 

[paradox]

Trinity is a man-made doctrine. It was never preached by any prophets of God, including Jesus.

Jesus spoke of Father and the Son as separate persons of one and same God.
Likewise he spoke about holly ghost (and prophets did as well talk about "God's spirit" as it is referred to in OT) as of a person or "entity" that is not the Son (Messiah) and not the Father (God).

The point being that there are no contradictions with scriptures.

As for "man-made" you're contradictory to what Jesus said in John 16:13-15 because what you call "man-made" is actually revealed by the Holy Spirit.