To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

[JerryMyers]

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind.

Did the New Testament contradict the Old Testament on this matter ? If the NT did not contradict the OT in this matter, then, the seemingly contradictions must be the result of the Christians’ misinterpretation of the phrase “die for” in the NT verses. Soldiers, regardless of whether they survived or were killed in battles, can be said to ‘die for their country’ because their life as a soldier was fully committed and dedicated to protecting and defending the sovereignty of their country at all costs. In the same way, Jesus too can be said to ‘die for the sins of man as his life on earth was truly dedicated and committed to save man from their sinning ways and show them the way to eternal life.

‘Died for’ or ‘to die for’ is an idiom, which is similar to someone saying, ‘her ice cream cake is something to die for’ which would mean the cake is so delicious and highly sought after, and not that you have to literally ‘die for’ the ice cream cake, or a ‘workaholic’ man who doesn’t seem to have a break, even on weekends and public holidays, could be said as a man who ‘die for his company’.

To be saved does not mean one must believe Jesus literally must die for your sin and rose from the dead, but to be saved would mean man need to believe in the One and Only God AND to listen and believe in the preaching of His prophets/messengers in their respective lifetimes, in this case, Jesus, who was sent by God so that man can understand righteousness thru his preaching, so said Jesus himself – “whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

So, if we understand Jesus’ words, then, we should also understand that all the passages in the NT which implied Jesus ‘died for the sin’ of man was actually to mean Jesus had lived his whole life on earth to bring righteousness to mankind and had shown man THE WAY out of eternal death and into THE (eternal) LIFE. So, Jesus was what he said he was in his lifetime – “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me” – John 14:6. In Moses’ lifetime, Moses was the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, and no one comes to (know) the Father (that is, the Supreme Being, God) except through Moses – if not through Moses, from who else can the people in Moses’ time come to know God? In the same way, most, if not all, prophets endured sufferings in their lifetimes, and, some were even killed for bringing the message of God and preaching righteousness to the people and they too could be said to have died ‘for the sin of mankind’, as they too, are committed to show mankind the way to the eternal life. In other words, these prophets are the way, the truth, and the life in their respective lifetimes just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life in his lifetime on earth.

Fact is, like all prophets and messengers of God, Jesus has lived for man’s sin just as he was said to have ‘died’ for man’s sin – both ‘lived for’ and ‘died for’ here carry the same meaning. If both statements carry the same meaning, then, the New Testament did not really contradict the Old Testament, it’s only the Christians who had taken the idiom ‘to die for’ LITERALLY as to them, Jesus had literally died on the cross for their sins when it was only made to appear so unto them.

The only reason why Jesus himself NEVER preached to his disciples his ‘death’ will redeem the sins of man, was because Jesus, as a prophet of God, knew only God have the power to forgive sin, and thus, he taught his disciples to pray to God for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12) and NOT that his ‘death’ will save all mankind from their sins – nothing and no one can forgive sin, ONLY the One True God can.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, ..

That is far from truth. Christians believe that all of them are born in sin because Adam disobeyed God. Furthermore, YHWH clearly said that he will punish up to the third and fourth generation. He is a very jealous God by his own words. Worse than even the dictators.

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

 

[Brian2]

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

The reason that no man can redeem his brother or give a ransom for him is that the cost of a life is another life and nobody can give someone else's life, that would be murder, and everybody sins, so nobody's life is free to give as a ransom because it is already owed for it's own sins.
I hope that is understandable.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind..

The value of God's sinless Son's eternal life is enough to give eternal life for us all including Himself. Eternal means it never runs out. God set the ransom price and of course it works out mathematically also.

.

To be saved does not mean one must believe Jesus literally must die for your sin and rose from the dead, but to be saved would mean man need to believe in the One and Only God AND to listen and believe in the preaching of His prophets/messengers in their respective lifetimes, in this case, Jesus, who was sent by God so that man can understand righteousness thru his preaching, so said Jesus himself – “whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

Jesus words included words about Him dying as a ransom. They also would be empty words without Jesus actually dying.

.

“I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me” – John 14:6. In Moses’ lifetime, Moses was the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, and no one comes to (know) the Father (that is, the Supreme Being, God) except through Moses – if not through Moses, from who else can the people in Moses’ time come to know God? In the same way, most, if not all, prophets endured sufferings in their lifetimes, and, some were even killed for bringing the message of God and preaching righteousness to the people and they too could be said to have died ‘for the sin of mankind’, as they too, are committed to show mankind the way to the eternal life. In other words, these prophets are the way, the truth, and the life in their respective lifetimes just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life in his lifetime on earth.

It is only Jesus who could and does give His life for us, so He is the only one who can be the Life.
Jesus is the Truth and the Word of God and so all the way through it is Jesus who is the Truth, no matter which prophet is was.
Jesus is the judge of all so we all are judged by Him and nobody can come to the Father but through Jesus.

.

The only reason why Jesus himself NEVER preached to his disciples his ‘death’ will redeem the sins of man, was because Jesus, as a prophet of God, knew only God have the power to forgive sin, and thus, he taught his disciples to pray to God for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12) and NOT that his ‘death’ will save all mankind from their sins – nothing and no one can forgive sin, ONLY the One True God can.

Jesus said He had authority while on earth, to forgive sins and Jesus said that the Father judges no man but has given all judgement to the Son.
That would not show He is God however because Jesus gave His apostles the authority to forgive sins or not.
Jesus did say that His life is a ransom and that He came to die. The Old Testament tells us that the suffering servant was going to suffer and die and take our sins on Himself. (Isa 53).

 

[Brian2]

That is far from truth. Christians believe that all of them are born in sin because Adam disobeyed God. Furthermore, YHWH clearly said that he will punish up to the third and fourth generation. He is a very jealous God by his own words. Worse than even the dictators.

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
I don't think that means that Jesus punishes the children of sinners for the sins of the parents, but means that the results of the sins of the parents get passed down from generation to generation in what kids are taught and how they are nurtured.

 

[Aupmanyav]

“Because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.” (Leviticus 26:39)

 

[Triumph]

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind.

Did the New Testament contradict the Old Testament on this matter ? If the NT did not contradict the OT in this matter, then, the seemingly contradictions must be the result of the Christians’ misinterpretation of the phrase “die for” in the NT verses. Soldiers, regardless of whether they survived or were killed in battles, can be said to ‘die for their country’ because their life as a soldier was fully committed and dedicated to protecting and defending the sovereignty of their country at all costs. In the same way, Jesus too can be said to ‘die for the sins of man as his life on earth was truly dedicated and committed to save man from their sinning ways and show them the way to eternal life.

‘Died for’ or ‘to die for’ is an idiom, which is similar to someone saying, ‘her ice cream cake is something to die for’ which would mean the cake is so delicious and highly sought after, and not that you have to literally ‘die for’ the ice cream cake, or a ‘workaholic’ man who doesn’t seem to have a break, even on weekends and public holidays, could be said as a man who ‘die for his company’.

To be saved does not mean one must believe Jesus literally must die for your sin and rose from the dead, but to be saved would mean man need to believe in the One and Only God AND to listen and believe in the preaching of His prophets/messengers in their respective lifetimes, in this case, Jesus, who was sent by God so that man can understand righteousness thru his preaching, so said Jesus himself – “whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

So, if we understand Jesus’ words, then, we should also understand that all the passages in the NT which implied Jesus ‘died for the sin’ of man was actually to mean Jesus had lived his whole life on earth to bring righteousness to mankind and had shown man THE WAY out of eternal death and into THE (eternal) LIFE. So, Jesus was what he said he was in his lifetime – “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me” – John 14:6. In Moses’ lifetime, Moses was the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, and no one comes to (know) the Father (that is, the Supreme Being, God) except through Moses – if not through Moses, from who else can the people in Moses’ time come to know God? In the same way, most, if not all, prophets endured sufferings in their lifetimes, and, some were even killed for bringing the message of God and preaching righteousness to the people and they too could be said to have died ‘for the sin of mankind’, as they too, are committed to show mankind the way to the eternal life. In other words, these prophets are the way, the truth, and the life in their respective lifetimes just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life in his lifetime on earth.

Fact is, like all prophets and messengers of God, Jesus has lived for man’s sin just as he was said to have ‘died’ for man’s sin – both ‘lived for’ and ‘died for’ here carry the same meaning. If both statements carry the same meaning, then, the New Testament did not really contradict the Old Testament, it’s only the Christians who had taken the idiom ‘to die for’ LITERALLY as to them, Jesus had literally died on the cross for their sins when it was only made to appear so unto them.

The only reason why Jesus himself NEVER preached to his disciples his ‘death’ will redeem the sins of man, was because Jesus, as a prophet of God, knew only God have the power to forgive sin, and thus, he taught his disciples to pray to God for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12) and NOT that his ‘death’ will save all mankind from their sins – nothing and no one can forgive sin, ONLY the One True God can.

I enjoyed reading your comments.
The true Apostles and Jesus never taught his death would remove sin because it does not. The liar (Jesus told us Pharisees are liars), Paul a 2nd false Apostle that betrays Jesus by agreeing he should die, taught that Jesus died to remove sin which is not true. Jesus taught against blood sacrifice for sin removal and commanded people believe that by accepting water baptism for remission of their sins.
Paul refused to stop being a Jew as he believed by the written laws established by Abraham that Paul, a professed son of Abraham, is born HOLY, already accepted by God as chosen. Paul refused to believe Jesus as Jesus denied the Christ is a son of Abraham. Paul said the Christ is a son of Abraham and Jesus said he isn't. After agreeing Jesus should die for blasphemy against the man Paul calls "the father of us all", Abraham, Paul then tells people Jesus is a son of Abraham, seed of David. Jesus said call no man father and God is the Father of Jesus but Paul does not care what Jesus taught. Paul teaches Abraham is the father of us all and believes Jesus had his power from God only because of the Abrahamic covenant.
Paul wants Gentiles to become Jews supporting the Abrahamic covenant when removing belief that Abraham is blessed by God was a main goal Jesus had to save the world from future nuclear annihilation. Abraham had it written he spoke with God and Jesus said Abraham did not speak with God, did not hear the voice of God. The Abrahamic covenant only exists in the minds of the deceived by Abraham's lies taught by tradition.
Moses was a lying unmerciful tyrant that killed thousands of people refusing to show them the Commandment from God to not kill them. God wants no human or animal killed over religious beliefs. People are not redeemed by human sacrifice. No animal sacrifices were done by Jesus because it is vanity to believe sin can be transposed from the guilty to the innocent so the innocent are killed and the guilty are set free. Human and animal sacrifices to a God are heathen and satanic traditions that never did anything but destroy an innocent life. The guilty remained guilty and died in their sins.
The merciful receive mercy from God. Jesus was innocent but the Jews condemned Jesus to die for sins he did not commit and they had no mercy over the fact God blessed Jesus and Jesus healed even the Jewish sick and lame. Jesus never threatened to kill a Jew but they repeatedly tried to kill him by stoning him and they killed his innocent disciples and put them in prison. Jesus allowed himself to be killed to stop Jews from killing his disciples. If Jews had been the people of God they would not have condemned the innocent to death. BTW, no red cow blood will cleanse any sin, sprinkling it in a room does nothing but make a bloody mess.

 

[Triumph]

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
I don't think that means that Jesus punishes the children of sinners for the sins of the parents, but means that the results of the sins of the parents get passed down from generation to generation in what kids are taught and how they are nurtured.

Pharisee Paul's false Jews that call themselves Christians may believe they are born in sin but the true disciples of Jesus know children are born innocent, guiltless, free from sin. Sin is an act of choice to choose wrong over right. Infants have not learned anything and young children have open minds learning from their parents without the maturity required to form their own opinions of laws, religious and secular. No child is born in sin, God does not create sinners. People are given free choice to sin or not to sin based on if they believe a law applies to them and is it a just law that should be obeyed. Jews killed people denying their God given right to freedom of speech and freedom of belief. Jews have a written Mosaic law that allows them to own human slaves. Jesus does not agree with that law Moses wrote and proclaimed correctly that laws of inequality are not the laws of God. Moses wrote over 600 laws he claimed were given to him by God but were not. One of those laws claims it is a sin against God to have messy hair and another states it is a sin to pick up a bug. Another Mosaic law states Jews do not have to pay interest on a monetary loan but other people do. One of my favorites because it is so ridiculous and always makes me laugh is it is a SIN against GOD to sew different types of cloth together to make a garment. Moses wrote ridiculous laws yet claimed they were from God when they were just made up out of the imagination of Moses. I wonder if Moses had a hair salon as a side business because he collected money from people to not be punished for their sins.
Jesus upholds the laws of GOD not the man made laws of murderer Moses that approved of Hebrew/Jews owning slaves.

 

[Triumph]

“Because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.” (Leviticus 26:39)

Jesus was sent to destroy the OT religion Abraham had established because Abraham never heard the voice of God. True religion did not exist until God sent Jesus and John the Baptist to establish it. True religion needed to be established because belief in Abraham as chosen of God results in a world thermonuclear war. This coming Nuclear Apocalypse is not survivable because nuclear radiation is the king of all kings and lord of all lords forcing all nations to fall as it takes control of the air people need to breathe to stay alive as Radiation travels over the Earth on the Jetstream constantly raining unstoppable nuclear fallout until there is nothing alive on Earth to breathe air.

 

[Triumph]

That is far from truth. Christians believe that all of them are born in sin because Adam disobeyed God. Furthermore, YHWH clearly said that he will punish up to the third and fourth generation. He is a very jealous God by his own words. Worse than even the dictators.

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

LORD is a term for a man not a God. A King = Lord with a military, Lord of Hosts, declaring himself God with the right to destroy life, wants people that oppose the King's right to a throne completely destroyed. This earthly King = Lord God, wants zero opposition to his desires of control over people, resulting in his laws even his unjust ones to be served or people that will not serve them destroyed.
Lord is a word used for kings, princes, military commanders, husbands, land owners, slave owners and even teachers. It is a title of respect like the word mister is a title of respect. Jesus the Son of God accepted the title " Lord " as a respected teacher of truth, nothing else, certainly not as a God. GOD is NOT Lord God. Lord God is a man with a military ruling as a God killing people that will not serve him.

 

[Brian2]

“Because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.” (Leviticus 26:39)

If the ancestors had not sinned and passed down their sins to their children, the children may not have sinned in the same ways that the ancestors did. So the sins of the ancestors that visit the children are a cause of the punishment of the children, who also sin in the same way.

 

[Brian2]

Pharisee Paul's false Jews that call themselves Christians may believe they are born in sin but the true disciples of Jesus know children are born innocent, guiltless, free from sin. Sin is an act of choice to choose wrong over right. Infants have not learned anything and young children have open minds learning from their parents without the maturity required to form their own opinions of laws, religious and secular. No child is born in sin, God does not create sinners. People are given free choice to sin or not to sin based on if they believe a law applies to them and is it a just law that should be obeyed. Jews killed people denying their God given right to freedom of speech and freedom of belief. Jews have a written Mosaic law that allows them to own human slaves. Jesus does not agree with that law Moses wrote and proclaimed correctly that laws of inequality are not the laws of God. Moses wrote over 600 laws he claimed were given to him by God but were not. One of those laws claims it is a sin against God to have messy hair and another states it is a sin to pick up a bug. Another Mosaic law states Jews do not have to pay interest on a monetary loan but other people do. One of my favorites because it is so ridiculous and always makes me laugh is it is a SIN against GOD to sew different types of cloth together to make a garment. Moses wrote ridiculous laws yet claimed they were from God when they were just made up out of the imagination of Moses. I wonder if Moses had a hair salon as a side business because he collected money from people to not be punished for their sins.
Jesus upholds the laws of GOD not the man made laws of murderer Moses that approved of Hebrew/Jews owning slaves.

Neither me nor PauI said anything about babies being guilty of anything so that is a straw man.
The Law of Moses has some strange laws that we wonder about these days. I would say that they are not given because they are against evil deeds but are about the holiness of God somehow and are given to the Jews as commands and the Jews were expected to keep them because those laws are also given to them by God and for them to learn from. They are not the important laws however.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy in those days and God wanted the Jews to conduct it in a way that was acceptable to Himself, ie treat the slaves well. God also wanted them to make a distinction between the Jewish slaves and those from other lands because God was setting up a people joined as brothers and sisters who were to love each other.
Jesus came and brought truth for all people and not the Law. In Christ there is equality between people. But interestingly even though the teachings of Jesus eventually helped to change society they are not a law and slavery that existed them was not condemned as something to be protested about, the change (spread of the Kingdom and thus God's will) was more subtle, like yeast which leavens the whole lump eventually.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No evidence of God or Jesus being the son of God and the deliverer from anything. Nothing to be delivered from. Nice cooked-up stories.
Views in the world change all the time. Why give the credit for all changes to Jesus? Was Jesus the first person to say that all people are equal?
What about Krishna or Buddha? Gita gives the greatest message of equality:

"vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini,
śhuni chaiva śhva-pāke cha paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśhinaḥ"
Bg. 5.18
Whether it is a humble learned brahmin, or a cow, or a she-elephant, or a dog, or a dog-eater; the wise see all as equal.

 

[JerryMyers]

That is far from truth. Christians believe that all of them are born in sin because Adam disobeyed God. Furthermore, YHWH clearly said that he will punish up to the third and fourth generation. He is a very jealous God by his own words. Worse than even the dictators.

What the Christians believe today came from what the early Church preached 2 thousand years ago, it never came from any of the prophets, including Jesus.
Jesus himself never heard of ‘original sin’ or its concept, rather, it was coined long after Jesus had departed to support the preaching of Jesus dying for the sin of mankind.

".. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

You are quoting the second part of the 2nd Commandment in the 10th Commandment which has nothing to do with original sin/sin of Adam.

The 2nd Commandment read, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments”.

In context, God is giving a warning to mankind that they should not make any image in the form of anything (which Christians clearly disobey) and they shall not bow down or worship those forms that are made with his own hands. If man practices this (which is a sin as God forbids it), and traditionally passed it on to their children who then will pass it on to their children and so on, then, their children and children of their children and so on are also committing the same sin of their parents and God will punish all those who continually commit this sin. It's NOT that the parent's sin will also automatically sin their children, but, the children sin because they continue the traditional practice of their parent, which is, making images and worshipping those images instead of worshiping the One and Only True God.

“I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God’ simply means that there’s only ONE True God who is worthy of worship and you shall not ‘share’ that worship with anyone or anything else other than the One and True Only God.
It would be ridiculous to think that God can be jealous of anything or anyone when everything is created by Him.

 

[Triumph]

Neither me nor PauI said anything about babies being guilty of anything so that is a straw man.
The Law of Moses has some strange laws that we wonder about these days. I would say that they are not given because they are against evil deeds but are about the holiness of God somehow and are given to the Jews as commands and the Jews were expected to keep them because those laws are also given to them by God and for them to learn from. They are not the important laws however.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy in those days and God wanted the Jews to conduct it in a way that was acceptable to Himself, ie treat the slaves well. God also wanted them to make a distinction between the Jewish slaves and those from other lands because God was setting up a people joined as brothers and sisters who were to love each other.
Jesus came and brought truth for all people and not the Law. In Christ there is equality between people. But interestingly even though the teachings of Jesus eventually helped to change society they are not a law and slavery that existed them was not condemned as something to be protested about, the change (spread of the Kingdom and thus God's will) was more subtle, like yeast which leavens the whole lump eventually.

Laws from God that are not important you say? Owning a human slave is an "evil deed" so realize that fact. Jews do not omit that from their religion because that would be admitting it never was a law from God. It never was a law from God but they will never admit it. They even have a law that says certain humans are always to remain a Jewish slave never to be sold or set free.
Read the Bible and see that Jesus did bring 2 new Laws from the real God. One is be water baptized, not a request, a Commandment = Law to be obeyed from God and no one is saved without belief in it. Those that believe and are baptized are saved.
The second new law is
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Jesus showed he loved Jews by not killing them when they threatened to kill him, but Jews do not return the mercy and they still claim the Mosaic laws are valid which would include their right to own human slaves. They also have a law that states once a Jew owns land it always belongs to the Jew. Jews sell their properties so do not obey the laws they say are from their God but their laws are still on the book . They also still believe in animal sacrifices to their God and plan on sacrificing a red cow in their temple to remove sin as soon as their new temple is built. People that support Jewish religion today as truth are supporting a bloody cow sacrifice to a God to "please " him for sin removal and the right for a Jew to own a human slave if they own one or not.
Their temple is not going to be built because they have to get that land away from the Holy land occupiers first and those brothers are not going to let them splash any cow blood on their land. Jews have to splash that blood in the new temple room or they can not establish their kingdom on Earth where their God will live so they can rule but only Jews will be allowed in the cleaned by cow blood room where they say is the only place on Earth that God will be. Christians are not going to be allowed in their God's room. So there Jews are, between a rock and a hard place with no belief in water baptism expecting Christians to protect them and every day that perfect red cow gets less and less perfect.

 

[JerryMyers]

The reason that no man can redeem his brother or give a ransom for him is that the cost of a life is another life and nobody can give someone else's life, that would be murder, and everybody sins, so nobody's life is free to give as a ransom because it is already owed for it's own sins.
I hope that is understandable.

Yet you believe Jesus gave his life as a ransom for the sin of mankind.

The value of God's sinless Son's eternal life is enough to give eternal life for us all including Himself. Eternal means it never runs out. God set the ransom price and of course it works out mathematically also.

That’s the preaching of other people, NOT Jesus. You will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus preached the same…and God does not set ransom on anyone.

When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28), he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that through his preaching. Also note that Jesus said ‘as a ransom for many’, NOT ‘for all’, which mean the word ‘ransom’ is to be understood figuratively, NOT literally, as Jesus can only save those who listen to him. Christians believe Jesus died for all mankind, NOT for many.

It would be illogical to take the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally, especially when earlier, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ?? Again your belief came from the preaching of other men, NOT from Jesus.
.

Jesus words included words about Him dying as a ransom. They also would be empty words without Jesus actually dying.

You believe that because you took the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally.

It is only Jesus who could and does give His life for us, so He is the only one who can be the Life.
Jesus is the Truth and the Word of God and so all the way through it is Jesus who is the Truth, no matter which prophet is was.
Jesus is the judge of all so we all are judged by Him and nobody can come to the Father but through Jesus.

Again, you will be hard-pressed to prove that Jesus ever said or even implied he was sent to die for the sin of mankind or the only way to eternal life is to believe he died for your sin. If you have come across those verses, please quote them.

Jesus said He had authority while on earth, to forgive sins and Jesus said that the Father judges no man but has given all judgement to the Son.

Again, it’s your misunderstanding of those verses that make you believe that Jesus is God, God the Son, or equal to God.

That would not show He is God however because Jesus gave His apostles the authority to forgive sins or not.
Jesus did say that His life is a ransom and that He came to die.

Can you quote which Bible verse are you referring to when Jesus said/implied he came to die? I can give you the Bible passage where Jesus said/implied that he did not die after the so-called ‘crucifixion and resurrection.

The Old Testament tells us that the suffering servant was going to suffer and die and take our sins on Himself. (Isa 53).

Even today, Christian scholars are still debating whether Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus or to the nation of Israel. So, your ‘point’ here is doubtful.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What the Christians believe today came from what the early Church preached 2 thousand years ago, it never came from any of the prophets, including Jesus.

.. "for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments".

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Mathew 5.17

If God is jealous, than his jealousy will show in all that he does. A leopard cannot change its spots.

 

[Brian2]

No evidence of God or Jesus being the son of God and the deliverer from anything. Nothing to be delivered from. Nice cooked-up stories.
Views in the world change all the time. Why give the credit for all changes to Jesus? Was Jesus the first person to say that all people are equal?
What about Krishna or Buddha? Gita gives the greatest message of equality:

"vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini,
śhuni chaiva śhva-pāke cha paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśhinaḥ"
Bg. 5.18
Whether it is a humble learned brahmin, or a cow, or a she-elephant, or a dog, or a dog-eater; the wise see all as equal.

The Bible starts off with the equality of all humans.
It is not wisdom to see all the things you mentioned as equal however imo.

 

[Triumph]

Neither me nor PauI said anything about babies being guilty of anything so that is a straw man.
The Law of Moses has some strange laws that we wonder about these days. I would say that they are not given because they are against evil deeds but are about the holiness of God somehow and are given to the Jews as commands and the Jews were expected to keep them because those laws are also given to them by God and for them to learn from. They are not the important laws however.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy in those days and God wanted the Jews to conduct it in a way that was acceptable to Himself, ie treat the slaves well. God also wanted them to make a distinction between the Jewish slaves and those from other lands because God was setting up a people joined as brothers and sisters who were to love each other.
Jesus came and brought truth for all people and not the Law. In Christ there is equality between people. But interestingly even though the teachings of Jesus eventually helped to change society they are not a law and slavery that existed them was not condemned as something to be protested about, the change (spread of the Kingdom and thus God's will) was more subtle, like yeast which leavens the whole lump eventually.

Read the OT Bible that describes Hebrew birth and how Hebrew women have to pay the temple for the "sin" of giving birth., Paul believes he is born Holy , was Holy as an infant, because Paul claims to be a son of Abraham, considered by Hebrews the royal bloodline but women are not born Holy and are sinning by giving birth and do not have rights of inheritance to a bloodline throne. Paul believes Mary sinned by giving birth to Jesus and he believes Jesus was born in fornication because Paul insists Jesus is the seed of David. Paul considers women born sinful because Eve was deceived not knowing any better. It is illogical for Paul to believe that because Adam sinned not deceived because Adam deliberately desired to sin knowing it was a sin. The greater sinner was Adam because he had the double sin of refusing to bend the knee to ask forgiveness for Eves ignorance proving Adam did not care what happened to her and did not want to plead for mercy giving honor to his God.
It has been proven by science that only males can produce a male child, so the Bible is correct Fathers beget sons, so no DNA in Mary could have produced a son even if she had been in the bloodline of David. She could have created a daughter of David but never a son. Females only carry female gender genes. Males carry male gender genes and whichever chromosome is dominant at conception determines the gender of the child. For Jesus to be a SON of David, Joseph had to be his biological father but Joseph is not. Mary had a virgin birth and Paul curses the Angel that told Mary Jesus will be born not of a human father but is the Son of God because that is not Paul's gospel that the Christ is a SON = SEED of David. Jesus is male not female and Pharisee Paul is a liar. Jesus told us Pharisees lie and Paul is a very successful liar because people believe his lies are truth.

 

[Triumph]

Yet you believe Jesus gave his life as a ransom for the sin of mankind.


That’s the preaching of other people, NOT Jesus. You will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus preached the same…and God does not set ransom on anyone.

When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28), he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that through his preaching. Also note that Jesus said ‘as a ransom for many’, NOT ‘for all’, which mean the word ‘ransom’ is to be understood figuratively, NOT literally, as Jesus can only save those who listen to him. Christians believe Jesus died for all mankind, NOT for many.

It would be illogical to take the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally, especially when earlier, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ?? Again your belief came from the preaching of other men, NOT from Jesus.
.

You believe that because you took the word ‘ransom’ in Matthew 20:28 literally.


Again, you will be hard-pressed to prove that Jesus ever said or even implied he was sent to die for the sin of mankind or the only way to eternal life is to believe he died for your sin. If you have come across those verses, please quote them.


Again, it’s your misunderstanding of those verses that make you believe that Jesus is God, God the Son, or equal to God.


Can you quote which Bible verse are you referring to when Jesus said/implied he came to die? I can give you the Bible passage where Jesus said/implied that he did not die after the so-called ‘crucifixion and resurrection.


Even today, Christian scholars are still debating whether Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus or to the nation of Israel. So, your ‘point’ here is doubtful.

Jerry, I like how you think but you still miss an important topic. Jesus is the son of God. Males carry male gender females do not and Jesus was created by God with no male DNA from any man. The male DNA in Jesus was designed fresh never in the body of any man on Earth. Joseph did not beget Jesus so Jesus is not a SON of MAN even though the Jews insist he is because they believe as shown in Matthew 1 that Jesus is Christ only by bloodline. But God would not let it be written that Joseph beget Jesus making Jesus the "seed of David" because that did not happen. Jews reject virgin birth and believe as Paul does that Jesus was conceived in fornication between Joseph and Mary so is Christ only by the Abrahamic covenant bloodline.
Jesus is called the Son of man but is not and praised Peter for understanding that fact. There is only 1 Christ and when Jesus was killed the Jews thought they were killing a son of David. Judas when betraying Jesus thought he was betraying a son of David, Son of man, as Judas had returned to the Jewish temple beliefs to rejoin that religion although they refused to accept him back in their temple still believing judas should be killed for leaving their religion joining Jesus. So when Jesus was betrayed by Judas, he was in fact betraying the only Christ that God offered Judas but the Christ Judas wanted to accept is a Jewish "son of man" Christ that Judas was willing to betray. Judas had stopped believing Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus knew that. Jesus made it clear to Judas that he understood Judas no longer wanted to follow Jesus by calling himself 'the Son of man" a betrayal of the Son of God that Judas had professed to love with a kiss.
The Son of Man is a son of Abraham/David that is a MILITARY commander that will lead an army of killers in the final war to establish dominance of Earth. ALL military commanders vow to die for their country if necessary, sacrifice their life, for their ruler to prevail.
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Jesus is making a comparison of religious rule and secular rule. The commander in chief of an army does not enter war to be told what to do by the enemy, "be ministered to", that Son of man fights to establish his right to tell another country how to run their government. The "many" he is willing to die for is his own country and any allies his country may have.
Jesus is never going to break the command of God to not kill. The Son of God is not the Son of man. Jesus knows that final Abrahamic war will happen if Jesus is killed ( but the Jews are relentless and will keep killing the disciples of Jesus until they kill Jesus, so Jesus agrees to die on a cross so his religion will not die and a few people that are disciples will be saved in that final conflict) and the Son of man military commander supporting belief in Abraham that tells people he is going to win, will die in it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Bible starts off with the equality of all humans.
It is not wisdom to see all the things you mentioned as equal however imo.

I suppose some Christians now accept that animals have a soul. Although, just like existence of God, the existence of souls also is without any evidence.
OTOH, theist Hindus (I am an atheist Hindu) believe that all living beings have souls, even vegetation.
That is why in the legend of the Pious Butcher, the butcher tells the brahmin who was sent to him for learning 'dharma' that violence is committed even when one eats plant-based food. (Dharma Vyadha, Vyadha Gita, SrimadBhagawat Purana).