To Die For The Sin of Mankind – what does that really mean ?

[Bree]

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT.

Christ can do so because he was NOT a sinner.

The value of his perfect life is what pays the sin debt for every other human.

The OT showed us that without the Messiah, no one could possibly be saved because every human is a sinner who must repay their sin debt thru their own death.

The Messiah though would carry no sin debt....he would be free of such a debt because he would be perfect and sinless. Only a perfect sinsless human could pay for the sins of others with his own sinless life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe there is no direct evidence that anything Hindu comes from God.

True, at least for me; since there is no God that anything will come from him. Not just for the Hindus, but for other religions as well; Jews, Christians, Muslims and all the others.

 

[JerryMyers]

No man you're again wrong and in contradiction because the continuation of John 10:30 is clear, read John 10:30-36 below (I underlined crucial so that you see better):
30 The Father and I are one.”
31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus obviously said "I'm the Son of God" at some point earlier and in this context equated him self with God in verse 30, so Jews wanted to stone him because this means being God which in their eyes was blasphemy.
See how easy it is to get wrong when you take stuff out of context heh?

Do you even understand what you read in your own Bible??

Jesus NEVER claimed he’s the Son of God, that is, he’s God the Son. It’s the Jews who claimed Jesus is claiming he’s God the Son (John 10:33) and like the Jews who hated Jesus, you are making that same claim.

John 10:33 read ‘The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God”’ – John 10:33. (I bolded and underlined the crucial words so that you see better)

So now, who said Jesus was making himself God?? Was it the Jews who are making that claim or was it Jesus who made that claim??

See how easy it is to get wrong when you adopt the Trinitarians’ false belief and take stuff out of context heh?

In fact, if you read John 10:30-36 in its proper context, you can see that Jesus denied he’s God/God the Son.

In context, the Jews were accusing Jesus of blasphemy when they accused Jesus claimed to be God/God the Son because he said he is the son of God. In denying that, Jesus asked them why was it NOT a blasphemy to the Jews when in their own Law it was said they are all gods and they all knew they are not truly gods but when he say he’s the son of God, it’s blasphemy when he too is NOT God but he was just doing the works of God and yet they don’t believe him.

When Jesus used the term ‘son of God’ to himself, he was referring to himself as someone who’s subservient and only submits to God, that is, a servant of God. In fact, in Isaiah 42:1, God Himself said - “This is My Servant”, NOT “This is My Son”. What does this tell us?? It tells us that the term ‘son of God’ is synonymous with the term ‘servant of God’. It is only in the NT, that the authors/translators began to predominantly use the term ‘Son of God’ to describe Jesus in an obvious attempt to project him literally as God the Son.

There is no direct reference here, John 10:30 is Jesus debating with Pharisees (like explained above), proclaiming here he is the Son of God and equating him self with God, while your quote from John 17:20-23. is Jesus' prayer to the Father not for his disciples like you said, but rather to everyone willing to follow Jesus.
The point is not to make everyone God like you claim, but rather the living body of church.

Are you THAT delusional??? When Jesus prayed to God for his disciples and said, ‘that they be one AS WE ARE ONE’ (John 17:22), the ‘WE’ is a reference to God and Jesus, and ‘AS WE ARE ONE’ is a direct reference to Jesus’ earlier words in John 10:30, which the Jews, like you, misunderstood as Jesus claiming he and God are one and the same Being.

I already showed you a verse where Jesus said "I'm the Son of God" and where Pharisees wanted to stone him for equating him self with God by that, therefore you're again wrong by saying Jesus is just a "prophet" rather that God.
You're also mixing unrelated here, because in John 20:21 Jesus is sending disciples to be apostles and is giving them holly spirit in John 20:22 to guide them.
verse 22 clearly states Jesus gave them holly spirit, so what issue do you have with that verse except that you do not like this fact?

If you want to ignore John 20:21 and be like the Jews who think Jesus is claiming to be God, that’s up to you, but the fact is John 20:21 clearly said it’s God, NOT Jesus, who sent His Holy Spirit through Jesus.

simply put some ones "energy" is witchcraft because there is no such thing.

No such thing as ‘energy’?? Then all these verses speaking of God’s Energy must be false - What Does the Bible Say About Energy?

John 10:30 is literal whether you like it or not.

It’s not about whether I like it or not, it’s about what Jesus really meant when he said “I and my Father are one”.

Clearly, you stand by the Jews in Jesus’ time who hated Jesus and wanted to get rid of him that they falsely accused Jesus of blasphemy by claiming Jesus has claimed he’s God. So, it’s not surprising that the Jews will use Jesus’ words such as ‘son of God’ and ‘I and my Father as one’ as ‘evidences’ to justify their false claim that Jesus has committed blasphemy.
So, what’s the difference between you and the Jews of Jesus’ time as you and the Jews made claims Jesus has claimed he’s God which Jesus himself has denied (John 10:30-36)??

I gave you an answer which is the holly spirit, John 20:22 again confirms this.

Well you did give a ‘merry-go-round’ answer. Anyway, so you think Jesus was referring to ANOTHER Holy Spirit when he spoke of another advocate/comforter?? Then that belief raised more problems if one is to think or believe the advocate/comforter/spirit of truth as mentioned by Jesus in John 14 and John 16 is the Holy Spirit of God –
1. Why would Jesus specifically said ‘ANOTHER advocate’ when there no such thing as ANOTHER Holy Spirit of God?

2. Since Trinitarians believe Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit of God is literally God Himself, therefore, if we were to adopt the Trinitarians’ understanding, then in John 14:16. Jesus is actually saying “And I will ask the Father (who is myself), and He (who is me) will give you another God to help you and be with you forever”!! See how ridiculous it is when Trinitarians try to tailor-fit their man-made doctrine of trinity into the scriptures???

3. In John 16:13, Jesus said “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come”.
So, tell me, if the advocate was the Holy Spirit per se, why would Jesus even say that the advocate will only speak what he hears from God and will not speak on his own when the Holy Spirit is of God Himself?? That’s like saying someone will only speak what he will hear from himself!!

4. Christians believe the advocate which Jesus spoke of is the Holy Spirit and He came on the day of the Pentecost. So tell me HOW did this Holy Spirit, on the day of Pentecost, proved the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in Jesus; about righteousness, because Jesus is going to the Father, where the people can see him no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world (Jesus) now stands condemned (John 16:8-11).
If Jesus was said to die for the sin of man, then, why would Jesus even said ‘about sin: because the people do not believe in him’?? What about sin that people did not believe in him?? Could Jesus be referring to the man-made doctrine of the original sin which made people believe Jesus is God and only God can die for the sin of man?? And why would Jesus say he ‘now stands condemned’ if he has just sacrificed his life for the sin of mankind???

See how ridiculous the scriptures sounded when Trinitarians try to tailor-fit their man-made doctrine of trinity into the scriptures??

My understanding is so far argumented with verses that you do not like because it defeats your non biblical POW.

You quoted verses which you don’t understand only prove how lost Trinitarians are – no wonder Jesus said ‘he now stands condemned’. Why do Trinitarians condemn Jesus??

 

[JerryMyers]

Christ can do so because he was NOT a sinner.

The value of his perfect life is what pays the sin debt for every other human.

The OT showed us that without the Messiah, no one could possibly be saved because every human is a sinner who must repay their sin debt thru their own death.

The Messiah though would carry no sin debt....he would be free of such a debt because he would be perfect and sinless. Only a perfect sinsless human could pay for the sins of others with his own sinless life.

Well, Bree, none of your sayings above are supported by the Scripture. For example, saying “The OT showed us that without the Messiah, no one could possibly be saved …….” is easily refuted because the OT never said that.

In fact, God Himself said (in the OT) that He’s the ONLY Savior and asks you to turn to Him to be saved:

- “Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other” – Isaiah 45:21-22

- “But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me” – Hosea 13:4

Can you show me where in your scriptures did God says He sent Jesus to die for the sin of mankind OR Jesus himself said he came to die for the sin of mankind??

Clearly, all these talks of ‘only Jesus can pay for the sins of others…’ are just nonsense preached by the early church (and traditionally carried on from generation to generation) in an attempt to justify the silly notion that Jesus must die for the sin of man.

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus told you to pray to God and seek forgiveness from God, Jesus never asked you to worship and pray to him, and believe his death will wash away all of man's sin. Who told you that?? Certainly NOT God nor His prophet, Jesus, that’s for sure!

 

[Bree]

Well, Bree, none of your sayings above are supported by the Scripture. For example, saying “The OT showed us that without the Messiah, no one could possibly be saved …….” is easily refuted because the OT never said that.

In fact, God Himself said (in the OT) that He’s the ONLY Savior and asks you to turn to Him to be saved:

- “Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other” – Isaiah 45:21-22

- “But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me” – Hosea 13:4

Can you show me where in your scriptures did God says He sent Jesus to die for the sin of mankind OR Jesus himself said he came to die for the sin of mankind??

I agree that salvation is by God alone. That is 100% correct. So how can i believe that salvation can be through Jesus sacrificed life and believe that salvation is by God alone at the same time? What does Isaiah 53 explain about the 'suffering servant' ?

Isaiah 53:1 Who has put faith in the thing heard from us?*+And as for the arm of Jehovah,+ to whom has it been revealed?+
2 He will come up like a twig+ before him,* like a root out of parched land.
No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;+And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.*
3 He was despised and was avoided by men,+A man who was meant for* pains and was familiar with sickness.
It was as if his face were hidden from us.*He was despised, and we held him as of no account.+
4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses,+And he bore our pains.+
But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced+ for our transgression;+He was crushed for our errors.+He bore the punishment for our peace,+
And because of his wounds we were healed.+


God sent Jesus to be the sacrifice. If it were not for God (Jehovah) putting things in place, salvation would not be possible. So we are 100% thankful to God our Creator for making the way to salvation possible and we 'put faith in the thing heard'

Who are we to question his methods??

\

Clearly, all these talks of ‘only Jesus can pay for the sins of others…’ are just nonsense preached by the early church (and traditionally carried on from generation to generation) in an attempt to justify the silly notion that Jesus must die for the sin of man.

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus told you to pray to God and seek forgiveness from God, Jesus never asked you to worship and pray to him, and believe his death will wash away all of man's sin. Who told you that?? Certainly NOT God nor His prophet, Jesus, that’s for sure!

every person who sins, dies because death is the consequences of sin.

If we are all born sinners through being genetically linked to Adam, the first sinner, then we are all doomed.

God in his great wisdom has made a way out for us and we should be very grateful for that.

 

[paradox]

Do you even understand what you read in your own Bible??

Jesus NEVER claimed he’s the Son of God, that is, he’s God the Son. It’s the Jews who claimed Jesus is claiming he’s God the Son (John 10:33)

Holly molly did I quote Turkish translation of the bible so you don't see? even birds on trees see it was Jesus (not Pharisees) who said (see underlined):

because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

For this claim Pharisees then accused him:

You, a man, are making yourself God

John 10:30-36
Do you see now?

Let's make this shorter and focus one problem at a time because you appear to present same problems over and over again.

 

[JerryMyers]

I agree that salvation is by God alone. That is 100% correct. So how can i believe that salvation can be through Jesus sacrificed life and believe that salvation is by God alone at the same time? What does Isaiah 53 explain about the 'suffering servant' ?

Isaiah 53:1 Who has put faith in the thing heard from us?*+And as for the arm of Jehovah,+ to whom has it been revealed?+
2 He will come up like a twig+ before him,* like a root out of parched land.
No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;+And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.*
3 He was despised and was avoided by men,+A man who was meant for* pains and was familiar with sickness.
It was as if his face were hidden from us.*He was despised, and we held him as of no account.+
4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses,+And he bore our pains.+
But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced+ for our transgression;+He was crushed for our errors.+He bore the punishment for our peace,+
And because of his wounds we were healed.+

God sent Jesus to be the sacrifice. If it were not for God (Jehovah) putting things in place, salvation would not be possible. So we are 100% thankful to God our Creator for making the way to salvation possible and we 'put faith in the thing heard'
Who are we to question his methods??

You should be questioning whoever who said Jesus to die for the sin of mankind was God’s method. If it is, God would have said so and Jesus would also have preached his death for the forgiveness of sin. Fact is, God NEVER said so and Jesus NEVER said he was sent to die for the sin of mankind. So who said so??

Isaiah 53 cannot be a messianic prophecy of Jesus’ ‘death’.

Jesus is very knowledgeable of the Old Testament and often quoted verses from the OT. Jesus NEVER knew nor heard of the New Testament which Christians use to say Jesus died for mankind's sin!!

If Jesus believed Isaiah 53 was a messianic prophecy of his death to redeem the sin of mankind, then,

1. Why did Jesus pray to God to save him from the Jews who were closing in on him – ‘“Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” – Mark 14:36. Shouldn’t Jesus be welcoming the Jews to kill him?? After all, the Jews who plotted to kill Jesus are just fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 53.

2. Why did Jesus call Judas his betrayer (Mark 14:42) if Jesus believe Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of his death to redeem the sin of mankind? Shouldn’t Jesus honor Judas as the man who has come to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 53 instead of calling him his betrayer??

The answer is obvious - Jesus himself NEVER sees Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy of his ‘death’ to redeem the sin of mankind.

every person who sins, dies because death is the consequences of sin.

Not really. Every person who sins will pay for his own sin. No one can die for your sin, NOT even Jesus, and he NEVER preached that in his lifetime on earth.

If we are all born sinners through being genetically linked to Adam, the first sinner, then we are all doomed.

Nope. We are all born sinless, that is, perfect. God is perfect, and if mankind is created in His image, it means man is born to be perfect too, but man grows to imperfection because man finds it hard to resist the many earthly temptations.

Sin is a choice, and choice is part of our intelligence to think before making any decision, it’s not part of Adam’s DNA to be passed down to his generations. Adam was faced with a choice too but was tempted to make a wrong choice and he disobeyed God’s instruction to him. In other words, you have a choice to obey or disobey God’s Commands.

To do something against your boss’ instructions may be a mistake, but it is NOT a sin, but to do something against God’s Will and Commands is a sin and a BIG mistake.

God in his great wisdom has made a way out for us and we should be very grateful for that.

Yes, and that’s why Jesus preached repentance for the forgiveness of sin as a way out for us, NOT his death for the forgiveness of sin – “and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” – Luke 24:47 NIV

 

[JerryMyers]

Holly molly did I quote Turkish translation of the bible so you don't see? even birds on trees see it was Jesus (not Pharisees) who said (see underlined):
For this claim Pharisees then accused him:
John 10:30-36
Do you see now?
Let's make this shorter and focus one problem at a time because you appear to present same problems over and over again.

Holly Molly!! You REALLY CAN NOT understand what you read!!!

Let me say it again – Jesus NEVER claimed he’s God.

When Jesus said “because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”, He was NOT making a claim that he’s God - he was putting a question to the Jews for making that ridiculous claim that he said he’s God/God the Son. You do understand the difference between a claim and a question, do you?? In case you do not know, a question normally will begin with a what/why/where/how… and ends with a question mark (?).

Try to understand John 10:30-36 in its proper context, and not try to tailor-fit your man-made doctrine into the scriptures.

When Jesus said “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” in John 10:36, he was defending himself against the lies of the Jews who accused him of blasphemy by saying that Jesus claimed to be God/God the Son. The Jews, like you, cannot understand the term ‘S/son of God’ and in John 10:34-35, Jesus, by making a direct reference to Psalm 82:6, is telling them that ‘son of God’ does not mean one is literally God/God the Son as their own Law said they are all (sons of) God.

Do you see now? Even birds on trees can see Jesus was NOT making a claim that he’s God but he was questioning the Jews why they accused him of blasphemy when he said he’s the son of God. See bolded and underlined - “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’”

Yes, let's make this short and focus on one problem at a time because you appear to have problems understanding your own scripture and you keep proving that over and over again.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 49:7 “No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.”

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”.

The Old Testament clearly preached no man can die for another man’s sins.

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind.

Did the New Testament contradict the Old Testament on this matter ? If the NT did not contradict the OT in this matter, then, the seemingly contradictions must be the result of the Christians’ misinterpretation of the phrase “die for” in the NT verses. Soldiers, regardless of whether they survived or were killed in battles, can be said to ‘die for their country’ because their life as a soldier was fully committed and dedicated to protecting and defending the sovereignty of their country at all costs. In the same way, Jesus too can be said to ‘die for the sins of man as his life on earth was truly dedicated and committed to save man from their sinning ways and show them the way to eternal life.

‘Died for’ or ‘to die for’ is an idiom, which is similar to someone saying, ‘her ice cream cake is something to die for’ which would mean the cake is so delicious and highly sought after, and not that you have to literally ‘die for’ the ice cream cake, or a ‘workaholic’ man who doesn’t seem to have a break, even on weekends and public holidays, could be said as a man who ‘die for his company’.

To be saved does not mean one must believe Jesus literally must die for your sin and rose from the dead, but to be saved would mean man need to believe in the One and Only God AND to listen and believe in the preaching of His prophets/messengers in their respective lifetimes, in this case, Jesus, who was sent by God so that man can understand righteousness thru his preaching, so said Jesus himself – “whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

So, if we understand Jesus’ words, then, we should also understand that all the passages in the NT which implied Jesus ‘died for the sin’ of man was actually to mean Jesus had lived his whole life on earth to bring righteousness to mankind and had shown man THE WAY out of eternal death and into THE (eternal) LIFE. So, Jesus was what he said he was in his lifetime – “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me” – John 14:6. In Moses’ lifetime, Moses was the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, and no one comes to (know) the Father (that is, the Supreme Being, God) except through Moses – if not through Moses, from who else can the people in Moses’ time come to know God? In the same way, most, if not all, prophets endured sufferings in their lifetimes, and, some were even killed for bringing the message of God and preaching righteousness to the people and they too could be said to have died ‘for the sin of mankind’, as they too, are committed to show mankind the way to the eternal life. In other words, these prophets are the way, the truth, and the life in their respective lifetimes just as Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life in his lifetime on earth.

Fact is, like all prophets and messengers of God, Jesus has lived for man’s sin just as he was said to have ‘died’ for man’s sin – both ‘lived for’ and ‘died for’ here carry the same meaning. If both statements carry the same meaning, then, the New Testament did not really contradict the Old Testament, it’s only the Christians who had taken the idiom ‘to die for’ LITERALLY as to them, Jesus had literally died on the cross for their sins when it was only made to appear so unto them.

The only reason why Jesus himself NEVER preached to his disciples his ‘death’ will redeem the sins of man, was because Jesus, as a prophet of God, knew only God have the power to forgive sin, and thus, he taught his disciples to pray to God for the forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12) and NOT that his ‘death’ will save all mankind from their sins – nothing and no one can forgive sin, ONLY the One True God can.

Dear JerryMyers,

The meaning of things in NT is different to that of things in OT precisely because of Christ having lived as Man.

In context of the passages that you refer to from OT, a sinner’s death means that they will no longer be included in the Book of Life (they are excluded from the Book of Life in NT also, but in a different manner and for another reason).

In context of Jesus “dying” for the sins of Man, dying means having returned to Spirit with first-hand experience of life in embodiment. Man’s sins are “forgiven” because they are understood differently now; from a human perspective.

In OT, sins and sinners are viewed as errors -glitches within worldliness, if you will- to be erased from existence. In NT, sins and sinners are instead understood as effects of existence in itself - embedded in the Word, so to say.

Change the Word and the Book of Life changes too. It is in light of that new understanding that things in NT receive their meaning.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[paradox]

When Jesus said “because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”, He was NOT making a claim that he’s God

You're contradicting the reaction of the Pharisees because they wanted to stone him because John 10:33:

and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So yes, saying I'm son of God means claiming to be God and Pharisees confirmed that obviously.

The Jews, like you, cannot understand the term ‘S/son of God’ and in John 10:34-35

OK, now you don't only hold me wrong, you also claim understanding of Pharisees was wrong as well, hm everybody is wrong including those who debated Jesus directly only you are not wrong.

Jesus, by making a direct reference to Psalm 82:6, is telling them that ‘son of God’ does not mean one is literally God/God the Son as their own Law said they are all (sons of) God.

No their law does not say they or us are Gods, Psalm 82 talks about judges if you didn't know and even today's Jews agree with that.
Jesus referring to Psalms 82:6 does not mean he is saying that he is "not son of God" or "not God", it's rather his ironic defense of his claim because Pharisees were people of scriptures and Jesus wanted to scripturally prove their accusation wrong, but this does not change the meaning of Psalms 82 nor his claim "I am God's Son" nor does it change the reaction of Pharisees since Jesus escaped them later John 10:39 which only proves that Psalms 82 did not make Pharisees change their mind since Psalms don't make anyone God.

 

[JerryMyers]

Dear Hermit Philosopher,

In context of the passages that you refer to from OT, a sinner’s death means that they will no longer be included in the Book of Life (they are excluded from the Book of Life in NT also, but in a different manner and for another reason).

Yes, but that does NOT change the fact that no one can redeem or bear the punishment for the sins of others.

In context of Jesus “dying” for the sins of Man, dying means having returned to Spirit with first-hand experience of life in embodiment. Man’s sins are “forgiven” because they are understood differently now; from a human perspective.

Whatever you are trying to say here, the fact is, contrary to what Christians believe, Jesus NEVER physically die (he himself said so), let alone physically die for the sin of man (which will be contradictory to the OT).

In OT, sins and sinners are viewed as errors -glitches within worldliness, if you will- to be erased from existence. In NT, sins and sinners are instead understood as effects of existence in itself - embedded in the Word, so to say.

It really does not matter how you want to view sins and sinners, the fact is the scriptures made it clear that sinners will be punished for their own sins.

Change the Word and the Book of Life changes too. It is in light of that new understanding that things in NT receive their meaning.

New understanding in NT is the result of man’s innovations NOT God’s. A good example is the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[JerryMyers]

So yes, saying I'm son of God means claiming to be God and Pharisees confirmed that obviously.

You REALLY CANNOT understand what you read, can you??

Why are you so concerned with the reaction of the Pharisees?? You should be concerned with the words and the reactions of Jesus!! Again, Jesus was NOT making a claim that he’s God but he was reacting to the Jews’ accusation of him to be a blasphemer. The fact that Jesus reacted to the Jews’ accusation by questioning them back - “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’”, tells us Jesus is telling the Jews that saying “I am God’s son” DOES NOT mean he is God and he clarified this by saying they are all gods too according to their own Law (Psalm 82:6). So, why are they not blasphemers but he is considered as a blasphemer for saying something which their own Law said so?

OK, now you don't only hold me wrong, you also claim understanding of Pharisees was wrong as well, hm everybody is wrong including those who debated Jesus directly only you are not wrong.

Many of the Jews also reacted to Jesus’ preaching by saying “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” (John 10:20).
So does this mean Jesus is demon-possessed because the Jews said so according to their understanding?? The fact that Jesus did not react to this accusation, does that mean Jesus is confirming the truth of the Jews’ accusation of him being demon-possessed and raving mad?? If you said ‘no, Jesus is NOT demon-possessed according to the understanding of the Jews’, then, I say, yes, the Pharisees and your understanding of Jesus is God because he said he’s the son of God (in reference to Psalm 82:6) is WRONG!

No their law does not say they or us are Gods, Psalm 82 talks about judges if you didn't know and even today's Jews agree with that. Jesus referring to Psalms 82:6 does not mean he is saying that he is "not son of God" or "not God", it's rather his ironic defense of his claim because Pharisees were people of scriptures and Jesus wanted to scripturally prove their accusation wrong, but this does not change the meaning of Psalms 82 nor his claim "I am God's Son" nor does it change the reaction of Pharisees since Jesus escaped them later John 10:39 which only proves that Psalms 82 did not make Pharisees change their mind since Psalms don't make anyone God.

First of all, Jesus was only making a reference to Psalm 82:6, NOT the whole passage of Psalm 82.

So, Jesus's reference to Psalm 82:6 - ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High’ means he is NOT God/God the Son…… unless you think the judges who you said Psalm 82 talks about are literally Gods too!!

 

[rational experiences]

Men preach space law is historic first.

The cosmos.

Atoms were and are floating as original sealed holiness. In space.

So then he reacts destroy cosmic law himself.

By man's evil Ai machine choice.

Suddenly biology on earth gets sacrificed and dies early age death.

As natural laws are first preached men who don't even heed their own preaching.

Space said a scientist is very cold. Colder than ice.

So it's why ice on earth is melting its mass as man knows he's causing it for breaking cosmic law.

Not just earths seals.

Hence man preached cosmic law superseded man's god earths laws as an argument. So men couldn't be allowed to perform any type of earth sciences

He named it humans wisdom. Old man's advice about what he had already been taught and learnt when life on earth was first sacrificed.

As just a human without a name.

So the new phenomena he sees is a manifested dead destroyed earth machine. As he destroyed planet God earth himself.

And he added into the list of human science caused manifested phenomena the UFO God.

Man human it's designer..

Men look at it knowing human man is nearly totally destroyed on planet earth. As the designer of causes.

 

[rational experiences]

A human scientist said as the scientist science lies. Says so as his man's confession.

Reason. All human men are just human men first.

Rationally a natural human man as mans origin aware conscious said I am wrong as the scientist.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Dear Hermit Philosopher,

Yes, but that does NOT change the fact that no one can redeem or bear the punishment for the sins of others.

Whatever you are trying to say here, the fact is, contrary to what Christians believe, Jesus NEVER physically die (he himself said so), let alone physically die for the sin of man (which will be contradictory to the OT).

It really does not matter how you want to view sins and sinners, the fact is the scriptures made it clear that sinners will be punished for their own sins.

New understanding in NT is the result of man’s innovations NOT God’s. A good example is the doctrine of the trinity.

Dear JerryMyers,

I think I mistook your OP for being about wanting to know why some people do not find the differences in OT and NT strange; sorry.

That said; if you yourself are a Christian* who understands OT and NT in a manner that does not make sense, it may not be a bad idea to look into understandings that do make sense to people.

*) If you are not a Christian, the differences in OT and NT don’t really need to make sense to you.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[paradox]

You REALLY CANNOT understand what you read, can you??

Why are you so concerned with the reaction of the Pharisees?? You should be concerned with the words and the reactions of Jesus!! Again, Jesus was NOT making a claim that he’s God but he was reacting to the Jews’ accusation of him to be a blasphemer. The fact that Jesus reacted to the Jews’ accusation by questioning them back - “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’”, tells us Jesus is telling the Jews that saying “I am God’s son” DOES NOT mean he is God and he clarified this by saying they are all gods too according to their own Law (Psalm 82:6). So, why are they not blasphemers but he is considered as a blasphemer for saying something which their own Law said so?


Many of the Jews also reacted to Jesus’ preaching by saying “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” (John 10:20).
So does this mean Jesus is demon-possessed because the Jews said so according to their understanding?? The fact that Jesus did not react to this accusation, does that mean Jesus is confirming the truth of the Jews’ accusation of him being demon-possessed and raving mad?? If you said ‘no, Jesus is NOT demon-possessed according to the understanding of the Jews’, then, I say, yes, the Pharisees and your understanding of Jesus is God because he said he’s the son of God (in reference to Psalm 82:6) is WRONG!


First of all, Jesus was only making a reference to Psalm 82:6, NOT the whole passage of Psalm 82.

So, Jesus's reference to Psalm 82:6 - ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High’ means he is NOT God/God the Son…… unless you think the judges who you said Psalm 82 talks about are literally Gods too!!

With all of the discussion so far with you I've come to the following conclusion:
John 10:27

Obviously you do not hear the voice of the word of God since you deny all scriptural arguments and also I caught you multiple times in contradicting the scriptures so far, therefore what I'm going to do with you is what Jesus did to those who didn't hear the voice, and that is, just leave you a lone so that you don't know the secrets, so that you listen but don't hear and look but don't see.
Luke 8:10

 

[JerryMyers]

Dear Hermit Philosopher,

I think I mistook your OP for being about wanting to know why some people do not find the differences in OT and NT strange; sorry.

No big deal.. don’t worry about it.

That said; if you yourself are a Christian* who understands OT and NT in a manner that does not make sense, it may not be a bad idea to look into understandings that do make sense to people,

*) If you are not a Christian, the differences in OT and NT don’t really need to make sense to you.

I am NOT a Christian but that does not mean I am against Christianity just for the sake of it. I find the words of Jesus make a lot of sense and do not conflict with the word of God, that is if you understand what he was really saying. Actually, if you take the Words of God (OT) and the words of Jesus (NT) as recorded in the Bible, plus logical and rational thinking, it makes a lot of sense. It’s when you add the preaching and words of other people, then it starts to become nonsense. For the preaching and the words of other people to be true, then their words must be in alignment with the words and preaching of Jesus and/or God Himself. For example, saying Jesus was sent to die for the sin of man cannot be true as God NEVER said so nor did Jesus ever say so or preach his death for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[JerryMyers]

With all of the discussion so far with you I've come to the following conclusion:
John 10:27

Obviously you do not hear the voice of the word of God since you deny all scriptural arguments and also I caught you multiple times in contradicting the scriptures so far, therefore what I'm going to do with you is what Jesus did to those who didn't hear the voice, and that is, just leave you a lone so that you don't know the secrets, so that you listen but don't hear and look but don't see.
Luke 8:10

Cherry-picking verses from the Bible because they contain words or phrases that you use in your responses only tells me you don’t understand what you read.

John 10:27 are meant for folks like you who still believe Jesus and God are one and the same Being. Two verses earlier (John 10:25), Jesus made it clear that the works he did in the name of God testify who he is and that is, he is NOT God but he is a prophet of God sent by God, but you do not believe him (John 10:26). Why would Jesus even say the works he did are in the name of God and he was sent by God if he and God are the one and same Being???

Jesus even prayed for folks like you who believe he’s God when he’s just a prophet sent by God – “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” – John 17:3.
So, why did Jesus pray to God and said ‘that they KNOW YOU, the ONLY TRUE God and Jesus Christ whom YOU HAVE SENT’ if he and God are one and same Being??? It couldn’t get any clearer than that – there’s only ONE TRUE God and He’s in the heaven whom Jesus lovingly referred to as his Father and he (Jesus) was sent by that TRUE God. These are the words of Jesus who prayed for folks like you so that you will know who the TRUE God is, but you don’t want to listen to him because you prefer to listen to the lies and words of other people like your preachers. So really John 10:27 is for you because you do NOT listen to Jesus!!

Luke 8:10 is also meant for folks like you because you don’t understand Jesus as he often spoke in parables and figuratively and that’s why folks like you “though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand”.

By the way, Jesus is NOT the Word of God, There’s NOT a single verse in the whole Bible where Jesus ever referred to himself as the Word of God.

Jesus is the creation of God who initiated that creation process by uttering a Word/Command – that’s how God creates anything and that is, just by uttering a commanding word and whatever or whoever He wants to bring into existence, came to be - “For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm” – Psalm 33:9.

So THINK and stop fooling yourself as I caught you multiple times trying to tailor-fit your man-made doctrine into the scriptures and making the scriptures look silly in the process.

If you want to remain in the dark and continue to believe the lies of your church/preachers, that’s your choice.

 

[ajay0]

Yet, Christians believe Jesus literally died for the sin of mankind - a belief which is clearly at odds with the preaching of the OT. But then, we know God is not a ‘flip-flop’ God of confusion. He would not have said “each will die for their own sin” and then, decided to send His chosen servant, or the son of God, if you like, Jesus, the son of man, to die for the sin of all mankind.

Here is an educated opinion of mine.

In eastern religious history and theology, enlightened sages or masters are considered to take on the negative karma of their disciples willingly to accelerate their spiritual development. This often results in diseases or calamities or suffering for the master, if the disciples had been sinners in the past.

Similarly, Jesus might have taken some of the negative karma of his disciples or people around him as an act of love and compassion, so as to spur their spiritual development.

By taking on such heavy negative karma, he is thus in a sense dying for the sins of mankind, as the author puts it.

This is my humble interpretation of this saying.

 

[JerryMyers]

Here is an educated opinion of mine.

In eastern religious history and theology, enlightened sages or masters are considered to take on the negative karma of their disciples willingly to accelerate their spiritual development. This often results in diseases or calamities or suffering for the master, if the disciples had been sinners in the past.

Similarly, Jesus might have taken some of the negative karma of his disciples or people around him as an act of love and compassion, so as to spur their spiritual development.

By taking on such heavy negative karma, he is thus in a sense dying for the sins of mankind, as the author puts it.

This is my humble interpretation of this saying.

Figuratively speaking, YES. Jesus was totally committed to showing and leading people to everlasting life and in doing so, he saved the people of his time from their sinning ways. In that sense, yes, his total commitment day in and day out to save his people can be said as ‘to die for the sin of man’ just like a workaholic who is totally committed only to his company and nothing else, can also be said ‘to die for his company’.

Literally speaking, NO. No one can literally redeem someone else sin nor can anyone literally sacrifice his own life for the sin of others.