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Featured Three types of people?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Marcion, May 4, 2021 at 5:24 AM.

  1. Marcion

    Marcion Self-realisation and Service to the Universe

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    From my present viewpoint as a tantric practitoner, there are roughly speaking three types of people.

    a. Tantric or Mystic type
    - who believe in and practise practical forms of spirituality, are not persuaded by superstitious beliefs and don't believe in the artificial boundaries between religions or other systems
    b. Religious type
    - who believe that they are in a rather fixed, delineated and privileged religion and will get rewarded for having made that particular choice
    c. Atheist or Agnostic type
    - who think that anything that cannot be grasped by the senses or is not measurable by instruments or knowable by objective science is a human fantasy or unreal including spiritual advancement
    - they just live their life without a higher spiritual goal and just try to enjoy life physically and/or mentally

    This is roughly how I see it now.
    Do you have any better ideas regarding this sort of typology or serious objections to it?
     
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  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    Nope. I think you quite hit the proverbial nail on the head.

    Great post!
     
  3. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Active Member

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    I can see what you mean, certainly.

    These could perhaps be considered the three primary colours of the spiritual spectrum.

    We could then allow for an almost limitless palette, once life, nature and humanity begin to mix the colours up.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    I'd say mystics are focused on self revelation of spiritual morality.

    Religion are practices and ethics that guide one to experience spiritual morality.

    Atheists can experience spiritual morality (mystic, religious, humanist), etc) that aren't based on deities
     
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  5. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    I'm not sure that there are many that would be comfortable calling their morality "spiritual," though.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    Shrugs. Semantics. I hope they got the context and not focus on the terms.
     
  7. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    Your post seems, understandably, biased toward the tantric/mystic category.

    You say the tantric/mystic is not persuaded by superstitious belief. Does that mean that those in the religious category are? How do you define superstitious belief?

    You introduce the phrase "practical spirituality". Setting aside your definition of spirituality, do either of the other two categories contain spirituality, and if so, is their spirituality impractical or inferior in some way?

    How are superstition and spirituality differentiated?
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I think there are thousands of kinds of people. To me, this sort of thing is an unnecessary oversimplification.
     
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  9. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I don't think that you are quite correct about that. As an atheist, I do not believe everything that can't be measured or grasped is necessarily fantasy or unreal -- just that we haven't learned how yet. And maybe it will turn out that we can't -- maybe, as the human animal that we are -- there are simply things that are beyond our limited ability to understand.

    We can still wonder about those -- and in my experience, we do. As to what you call "spiritual advancement," we call that internal growth through knowledge of self and increased willingness to connect with the world.
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Given that you said 'roughly', and asked for serious objections, I can say on the whole your definitions seem fine.

    But...
    Atheists can be religious (although I'm not).
    Atheists can believe in things not purely of material nature.
    Mystics can be superstitious.
    Religious folk may not believe in tangible rewards based on belief.

    People don't fit neatly in boxes.
     
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  11. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    The only thing I would add is that quite a few atheists do go in for meditation and the likes. IIRC Sam Harris has done this.
     
  12. Marcion

    Marcion Self-realisation and Service to the Universe

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    Yes, the categories are more like 'poles'. There are many mixtures possible, especially in India.

    Your question is a tricky one to answer.
    I would define a spiritual practice as an introspective exercise ('innersise') that has been proven to have a certain positive spiritual effect in different people.
    A superstitous practice I see as a ritual that does not have any real effect other than a placebo one.
    But I don't want to step on anyone's toes, so I won't go into details or give examples.

    I wonder if I would call Harris an atheist. He opposes irrational beliefs (superstitions) and dogmatic or fundamentalist religions but not spiritual practice as such. So I'd see him more as a tantric person.
     
    #12 Marcion, May 4, 2021 at 7:39 AM
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 8:04 AM
  13. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    I have objections. It's obviously biased, grossly stereotypical, mildly insulting, factually flawed and totally unnecessary.

    Why do you even feel the need to lump everyone in to a couple of broad categories? What is the purpose or benefit of doing so?
     
  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I don't have a religion
    I believe in God
    I like science
    I believe in God
    my fellowman is .......confused
    I believe in God
     
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  15. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    A question - what result(s) is/are there a potential to achieve by the "Tantric," "Mystic," or "Religious" type when they actualize what you are calling "spiritual advancement?" I find it interesting that you only included mention of this idea of "spiritual advancement" within the "atheist/agnostic" category, and it is also interesting to note that the rest of that category's content points at the potential for things that "cannot be grasped by the senses" or "[are] not measurable by instruments." Are those the sorts of things you would say are opened up to somehow interact with or "achieve" for the person who experiences a "spiritual advancement?"

    In the end, it all just seems rather convenient that the people who make claims about the sorts of intangibles one might achieve through "spiritual advancement" can claim that it is all "very personal" and that each person must therefore achieve things on their own - and all of that without at all having to (or even being able to) divulge where all their concentration on these "spiritual" things ended up taking them in terms of revealing things "[not] grasped by the senses" or "not measurable by instruments."

    And most interesting of all - from my experience, - the main sorts of things these types of people like to claim they have achieved usually end up being nothing more than what somehow enables them to "just try to enjoy life physically and/or mentally." (juxtapose with same quote in your words above).
     
  16. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    If introspective exercises that produce a positive spiritual effect simply means doing things that help improve mental health and wellness, then I would say those in category three would find no problem with that and may classify themselves as category 1 and 3.
    If spiritual or spirituality refers to a different, higher, or transcendent reality or existence beyond this material world we exist in, then I fail to see the difference between superstition and spirituality, nor between category 1 and 2.
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I am a religious type, but that is a broad stroke you paint for all the types.
    The choice of Jesus is what God wants us to make, but it is more than a head choice and involves practical choices in our life also.
    Religious people can also include mystics in probably all faiths.
    Mystics and Tantrics can be rigid also, if that is what you are claiming about religious.
    Superstitious beliefs can be hard to define. If you mean works of God then a refusal to see God working is a pretty rigid belief.
     
  18. Marcion

    Marcion Self-realisation and Service to the Universe

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    The benefit to me is that I'm constantly on this forum trying to grasp where certain points of view in certain discussions derive from. These categories help me get a better grip. That's all.
    It is of course as seen from a more tantric direction as implied in the opening post. In that sense it is indeed biased. I'm sorry if my post was seen as even a mild insult.

    Spiritual growth goes beyond mental health and wellness and it has nothing to do with superstition or imagined stuff. The refusal to differentiate seems to me a typical thing for atheism?
     
    #18 Marcion, May 4, 2021 at 8:49 AM
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 8:55 AM
  19. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    None of these fit me. I am mystical, have a religion, and don't believe my religion gives me any kind of special privileges.
     
    #19 Rival, May 4, 2021 at 8:51 AM
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 11:06 AM
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  20. Sirona

    Sirona Hindu Wannabe

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    I see "religiosity" rather as a spectrum ranging from letter of the law fundamentalism on the one hand to mysticism/spirituality on the other.

    People can be mystics without being tantric.

    Some religions teach becoming one with Brahman or God as the ultimate goal, or serving him "selflessly", meaning without speculating for a reward/heaven.
     
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