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There's no vaccine against willful ignorance

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
In such a case i don't see why a charge of murder or at the least man slaughter shouldn't be brought if their selfishness causes the death of another person.
There could be likened to vehicular manslaughter. It's not that you're not entitled to drive when you like but there are rules in place to minimize risk to yourself and others. Someone who chooses to drive drunk or recklessly can be charged a misdemeanor which could escalate to a felony if the other person dies.

However, that would require making the wearing of masks a law. So far, society has been relying on (hoping) people can follow the science, use common decency and act responsibly. Clearly, some are incapable of doing so.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
There could be likened to vehicular manslaughter. It's not that you're not entitled to drive when you like but there are rules in place to minimize risk to yourself and others. Someone who chooses to drive drunk or recklessly can be charged a misdemeanor which could escalate to a felony if the other person dies.

However, that would require making the wearing of masks a law. So far, society has been relying on (hoping) people can follow the science, use common decency and act responsibly. Clearly, some are incapable of doing so.


Luckily i live in france there it is law to wear a mask in any confined public space. Failure to do so results in a €138 fine, not much but enough to make people think twice.

I really do not get the reluctance to help prevent the spread of the virus in some countries
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Luckily i live in france there it is law to wear a mask in any confined public space. Failure to do so results in a €138 fine, not much but enough to make people think twice.

I really do not get the reluctance to help prevent the spread of the virus in some countries
Well here in the US, I'd say the leading cause is, like so many other things, it's become politicized and that, as usual, tends to run counter to facts and rational behavior. :(
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well here in the US, I'd say the leading cause is, like so many other things, it's become politicized and that, as usual, tends to run counter to facts and rational behavior. :(

I blame the construction. So many take it as the key to do what they want and screw everyone else
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My plan is leaving America and going to where people have more have more gray matter and less pudding for a brain.

That was our plan fifteen years ago. We could see the writing on the wall for America's future, and realized that life could be much better elsewhere. So, we had a house built in Mexico in 2005 and moved into it upon retirement in 2009, where we have lived since a mile high on a mountain lake. COVID has made the improvement less, since we don't enjoy the community and local culture these days, and Mexico's COVID response has been about as incompetent as America's, but we've been glad to be away from gun culture, open racism, harshly divided people about half of which I didn't want to live among, weaponized religion, and more. Now, add the authoritarianism, police brutality, civic unrest, and another black kid being killed by the police every week. You can do better than that.

This government is as corrupt as the American one, and does as little for its people, but in this case, it's because the government can't do better. It has never had access to the kinds of money the American government spends. Nor do we pay through the nose for so little back.

In America, the government chooses to treat the people as capitol and give them just enough to keep working. They will not be benefiting from the fruits of capitalism as their grandparents did when the American middle class was prosperous, just like these people.

And we enjoy other benefits. We live among happy people. Our weather is excellent (we have and need no central air or heat), the prices are much better, we can get most medications over-the-counter without a doctor's visit and prescription, and we've gotten 6-8% interest on our savings.

The point is that anybody that can leave the States ought to consider doing so, and sooner rather than later. One more cycle of a Republican administration tanking the economy and rolling back consumer protections followed by a Democratic president to restore some balance. Bill Clinton inherited Bush 41's recession and delivered a balanced budget, which Bush 43 then trashed with what was considered a major recession only 11-12 years ago, which Obama restored only to have another Republican tank the economy. Each cycle is three steps back followed by one forward.

Is anybody expecting anything different in the future? Trump's failures (three steps back) will lead to another Democratic administration cleaning up some of the mess (1 step forward), followed by an electorate, which really isn't fit to self-govern any longer and hasn't been for some time now, forgetting how much Trump terrified them, and under the influence of incessant conservative indoctrination media, will irrationally and self-destructively return to hating Democrats and electing Republicans. How much more of this will it take for America to be dangerous to live in?

That's what I mean by getting out as soon as feasible. Do you want to be around what's likely coming in America? How much damage will the narcissist do after he is rejected? Is he any different from the narcissists you see on true crime shows that kill when rejected? Will there be war on the streets, perhaps at his command? I don't know, but I'd rather find out from Mexico.

There is a better life available to you if you can leave. Not everybody can, whether because of debt without offsetting equity or savings, or family obligations, or whatever.

But for us, it was possible, and it was a big improvement in quality of life as well as a huge relief to be so much less entrained in America's failures. We're insulated from Supreme Court appointments, or the collapse of the Post Office, mass shootings and gun culture (people here don't walk around in fatigues carrying assault rifles into Wal-Mart), domestic terrorism, intense personal selfishness wherever you turn, encroaching fascism, and much more of the worst of American life.

Anyway, it sounds like you have the right idea, and I wanted to encourage you look seriously for ways out.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
That was our plan fifteen years ago. We could see the writing on the wall for America's future, and realized that life could be much better elsewhere. So, we had a house built in Mexico in 2005 and moved into it upon retirement in 2009, where we have lived since a mile high on a mountain lake. COVID has made the improvement less, since we don't enjoy the community and local culture these days, and Mexico's COVID response has been about as incompetent as America's, but we've been glad to be away from gun culture, open racism, harshly divided people about half of which I didn't want to live among, weaponized religion, and more. Now, add the authoritarianism, police brutality, civic unrest, and another black kid being killed by the police every week. You can do better than that.

This government is as corrupt as the American one, and does as little for its people, but in this case, it's because the government can't do better. It has never had access to the kinds of money the American government spends. Nor do we pay through the nose for so little back.

In America, the government chooses to treat the people as capitol and give them just enough to keep working. They will not be benefiting from the fruits of capitalism as their grandparents did when the American middle class was prosperous, just like these people.

And we enjoy other benefits. We live among happy people. Our weather is excellent (we have and need no central air or heat), the prices are much better, we can get most medications over-the-counter without a doctor's visit and prescription, and we've gotten 6-8% interest on our savings.

The point is that anybody that can leave the States ought to consider doing so, and sooner rather than later. One more cycle of a Republican administration tanking the economy and rolling back consumer protections followed by a Democratic president to restore some balance. Bill Clinton inherited Bush 41's recession and delivered a balanced budget, which Bush 43 then trashed with what was considered a major recession only 11-12 years ago, which Obama restored only to have another Republican tank the economy. Each cycle is three steps back followed by one forward.

Is anybody expecting anything different in the future? Trump's failures (three steps back) will lead to another Democratic administration cleaning up some of the mess (1 step forward), followed by an electorate, which really isn't fit to self-govern any longer and hasn't been for some time now, forgetting how much Trump terrified them, and under the influence of incessant conservative indoctrination media, will irrationally and self-destructively return to hating Democrats and electing Republicans. How much more of this will it take for America to be dangerous to live in?

That's what I mean by getting out as soon as feasible. Do you want to be around what's likely coming in America? How much damage will the narcissist do after he is rejected? Is he any different from the narcissists you see on true crime shows that kill when rejected? Will there be war on the streets, perhaps at his command? I don't know, but I'd rather find out from Mexico.

There is a better life available to you if you can leave. Not everybody can, whether because of debt without offsetting equity or savings, or family obligations, or whatever.

But for us, it was possible, and it was a big improvement in quality of life as well as a huge relief to be so much less entrained in America's failures. We're insulated from Supreme Court appointments, or the collapse of the Post Office, mass shootings and gun culture (people here don't walk around in fatigues carrying assault rifles into Wal-Mart), domestic terrorism, intense personal selfishness wherever you turn, encroaching fascism, and much more of the worst of American life.

Anyway, it sounds like you have the right idea, and I wanted to encourage you look seriously for ways out.
The plan is to travel around some as an English teacher and then hopefully settle down in Canada. Unfortunately, first we have to be allowed back in other countries. But I'm not quite ready to leave just yet. I have a few medical things left to take care of first, but if all goes well for me I won't be here to vote in 2024 (I'm aiming for Germany or Japan by then). America is brutal, stupid, dangerous, and it's too hard to get ahead here. I can flourish in so many other countries not ever having to be worried about being burdened by healthcare expenses again. And a safety net of some sorts for old age given I'm such a late bloomer and haven't been able to save up hardly anything before moving to California, let alone saving up for retirement.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That was our plan fifteen years ago. We could see the writing on the wall for America's future, and realized that life could be much better elsewhere. So, we had a house built in Mexico in 2005 and moved into it upon retirement in 2009, where we have lived since a mile high on a mountain lake. COVID has made the improvement less, since we don't enjoy the community and local culture these days, and Mexico's COVID response has been about as incompetent as America's, but we've been glad to be away from gun culture, open racism, harshly divided people about half of which I didn't want to live among, weaponized religion, and more. Now, add the authoritarianism, police brutality, civic unrest, and another black kid being killed by the police every week. You can do better than that.

This government is as corrupt as the American one, and does as little for its people, but in this case, it's because the government can't do better. It has never had access to the kinds of money the American government spends. Nor do we pay through the nose for so little back.

In America, the government chooses to treat the people as capitol and give them just enough to keep working. They will not be benefiting from the fruits of capitalism as their grandparents did when the American middle class was prosperous, just like these people.

And we enjoy other benefits. We live among happy people. Our weather is excellent (we have and need no central air or heat), the prices are much better, we can get most medications over-the-counter without a doctor's visit and prescription, and we've gotten 6-8% interest on our savings.

The point is that anybody that can leave the States ought to consider doing so, and sooner rather than later. One more cycle of a Republican administration tanking the economy and rolling back consumer protections followed by a Democratic president to restore some balance. Bill Clinton inherited Bush 41's recession and delivered a balanced budget, which Bush 43 then trashed with what was considered a major recession only 11-12 years ago, which Obama restored only to have another Republican tank the economy. Each cycle is three steps back followed by one forward.

Is anybody expecting anything different in the future? Trump's failures (three steps back) will lead to another Democratic administration cleaning up some of the mess (1 step forward), followed by an electorate, which really isn't fit to self-govern any longer and hasn't been for some time now, forgetting how much Trump terrified them, and under the influence of incessant conservative indoctrination media, will irrationally and self-destructively return to hating Democrats and electing Republicans. How much more of this will it take for America to be dangerous to live in?

That's what I mean by getting out as soon as feasible. Do you want to be around what's likely coming in America? How much damage will the narcissist do after he is rejected? Is he any different from the narcissists you see on true crime shows that kill when rejected? Will there be war on the streets, perhaps at his command? I don't know, but I'd rather find out from Mexico.

There is a better life available to you if you can leave. Not everybody can, whether because of debt without offsetting equity or savings, or family obligations, or whatever.

But for us, it was possible, and it was a big improvement in quality of life as well as a huge relief to be so much less entrained in America's failures. We're insulated from Supreme Court appointments, or the collapse of the Post Office, mass shootings and gun culture (people here don't walk around in fatigues carrying assault rifles into Wal-Mart), domestic terrorism, intense personal selfishness wherever you turn, encroaching fascism, and much more of the worst of American life.

Anyway, it sounds like you have the right idea, and I wanted to encourage you look seriously for ways out.
So many terrible things you see here in Ameristan just
don't afflict me in SE Michiganistan.
In Mexico, you read about police thuggery in Ameristan.
But here, we read about Mexico's police thuggery &
corruption in concert with the drug cartels.

To re-purpose an old saying....
The grass is always browner on the other side.
 
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Hopefully we will someday be able to inoculate against COVID-19, thereby potentially saving tens of thousands of lives, but there is no vaccine against willful ignorance and intransigence. How should we deal with the very real threat posed by the vaccine deniers?
Vaccine deniers thrive and proliferate in an environment of confusion and misinformation. I think one step in dealing with such a very real threat, just for starters, is to have a very real adult in the White House.

To wit: President Trump on Vaccines: From Skeptic to Cheerleader

I suspect that Trump may be a perfect storm for vaccine skepticism. His crackpot conspiratorial thinking provides aid and comfort to anti-vax sentiment within Trumpworld. Meanwhile, the way he politicizes science and medicine may cause people in Realworld to wonder whether a vaccine promoted by Dr. Trump and approved by his administration, has been properly tested to ensure it's safe and effective.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think one step in dealing with such a very real threat, just for starters, is to........
stay to point

the virus doesn't care your politics
OR the money flow driving vaccines

wanna deal with the actual threat?

realize ....for starters.....
the virus is a chemical problem

it is alive .....and wants what you got

take your vitamins and stop eating junk food

infection is up close and personal
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Hopefully we will someday be able to inoculate against COVID-19, thereby potentially saving tens of thousands of lives, but there is no vaccine against willful ignorance and intransigence. How should we deal with the very real threat posed by the vaccine deniers?

I have an idea...
  • Everyone is by law required to get a vaccine.
  • Periodic checks are made. Kind of like the Roman census.
  • Anyone who can’t prove they are vaccinated, maybe with a certificate, or better yet, a tattoo, is detained then forcibly vaccinated.
:rolleyes:

Shouldn’t this be in the jokes and games section? Because you can’t possibly be ****ing serious. “Dealing with it” can potentially violate every human and civil right in the history of violations of human and civil rights.

This **** is going too far now.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I should say deny them treatment for whatever ails them that vaccine would have prevented. However i am not that callous, so what i would do if i know an individual with such a frightening attitude to other people's lives is not know them any longer, stay clear and let them get on with their lives in isolation.

The same could be said for the flu and pneumonia. Before anyone says covid is not the flu or pneumonia that’s not the point. All are contagious, all can be deadly. Why don’t we have the same vehemence about vaccinating for the flu or pneumonia? As people are fond of pointing out, one death is one death is too many. I say it doesn’t matter the cause. There should be as much vehemence for flu and pneumonia vaccines. Covid has a >98-99% recovery rate. And what about PreP vaccinations? Engaging in unprotected sex is a choice. Maybe PreP vaccinations should be required and care denied to those who contract HIV and can’t show they were vaccinated. How about HPV for teens and preteens. Let’s tell their parents they can’t have chemo or other cancer treatments because they didn’t vaccination their child. I know that’s not your belief, which you said, but see how far it can go? Where does it stop?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
In such a case i don't see why a charge of murder or at the least man slaughter shouldn't be brought if their selfishness causes the death of another person.

How do I prove I contracted covid from you? I may have gotten it from you last week. Or maybe from him... or her... How do you prove who gave what to whom? Do we test all 42,816 people in my town? And what about everywhere else I’ve been? All these recommendations people make are in a vacuum, assuming it’s a one on one contact and transmission situation.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I have an idea...
  • Everyone is by law required to get a vaccine.
  • Periodic checks are made. Kind of like the Roman census.
  • Anyone who can’t prove they are vaccinated, maybe with a certificate, or better yet, a tattoo, is detained then forcibly vaccinated.
:rolleyes:

Shouldn’t this be in the jokes and games section? Because you can’t possibly be ****ing serious. “Dealing with it” can potentially violate every human and civil right in the history of violations of human and civil rights.

This **** is going too far now.

Stupid outburst aside, note the following from cdc.gov ...

Childcare and School Chickenpox Vaccine Requirements

All 50 states and the District of Columbia (DC) have state laws that require children entering childcare or public schools to have certain vaccinations. There is no federal law that requires this.

The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommends that all states require children entering childcare and students starting school, college, and other postsecondary educational institutions have:
age-appropriate chickenpox vaccination
preschool-age children (age 12 months through 3 years): 1 dose
school-age children, adolescents, adults: 2 doses or​
other evidence of immunity against chickenpox.
Here's a thought: whine less and act responsibly.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Well here in the US, I'd say the leading cause is, like so many other things, it's become politicized and that, as usual, tends to run counter to facts and rational behavior. :(

As well as “hystericalized“ by the media. Tovarishch Murphsky, governor of NJ gives daily updates on infections and deaths, presenting them as if they are new. They’re not. It’s more than well-documented that his numbers are cumulative, not new cases as he and the media report them. And he and the media think we’re stupid to not know this. Well, NJ has more than its fair share of idiots. They’re playing on people’s fear.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Stupid outburst aside, note the following from cdc.gov ...

Childcare and School Chickenpox Vaccine Requirements

All 50 states and the District of Columbia (DC) have state laws that require children entering childcare or public schools to have certain vaccinations. There is no federal law that requires this.

The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommends that all states require children entering childcare and students starting school, college, and other postsecondary educational institutions have:​
    • age-appropriate chickenpox vaccination
      • preschool-age children (age 12 months through 3 years): 1 dose
      • school-age children, adolescents, adults: 2 doses or
  • other evidence of immunity against chickenpox.
Here's a thought: whine less and act responsibly.

“Stupid outburst”, being your opinion, is in response to an even more stupid idea and concept.

Here’s another thought... take a break from your caustic, cantankerous and sarcastic comments. They’re old. Moreover, you don’t know what my behaviors and precautions are in this situation.
 
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