There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

[CG Didymus]

In the Baha’i Faith there is no punishment and although the writings forbid homosexuality it is between an individual and God, a private matter. And we are forbidden to discriminate against or protest against people who practise it. That is their personal choice and we have no right to interfere.

For adultery the Quran says...

[24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out God’s law, if you truly believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.​

For adultery and homosexuality, the Bible says...

Leviticus 20:10 10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13 13 If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death.
​

In the Baha'i Faith is says...

The punishment for adultery and fornication according to Bahaullah is punishable by a fine paid to the Universal House of Justice, (UHJ). On page 15 of Kitab-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book), he writes, "It is a must for every adulterer and adulteress that they must pay to the Universal House of Justice and give 9 mithqals of gold.
​

So, God wanted them killed. Then I don't think there's punishment given in the NT. Then in the Quran it's 100 lashes and nothing for homosexuality? And then in the Baha'i Faith adultery is a fine. So, why isn't there a fine for homosexual sex? It's left between the individuals and God? But God doesn't want them to do it. So, what's God going to do about it? Especially since God says to fine people caught committing adultery. But if it's a man with a man or a woman with a woman, no fine if caught having that kind of sex?

Next question, who's going to catch them in the act? If adulterers keep it private, isn't that also just between them and God?

 

[CG Didymus]

We can consider that when we understand the meaning, it shows how God is all knowing and knows what is best for us, and knows how to guide us in the use of free will choices.

As God knows what all our choices are, that each moment of our lives gives us the opportunity to use our free will in Love and service to all humanity.

There is much in the story of Adam and Eve. Adam being the first recorded Messenger when the consciousness of humanity was of sufficient capacity. Adam is humanity, Male and Female. The the story of creation is explaining that spiritual awakening, Adam being the Soul of man and Eve the self of humanity. It talks of our struggle between the material Humanity and the Spiritual Capacity.

There is a good talk on this topic, so I will post it here in case you would like to read it, otherwise please disregard.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

It's easy for us today to make the creation story fictional or metaphorical. But the way it is written in Genesis, it is part of a continuing story that leads all the way to the Joseph becoming a leader in Egypt and, because of a famine, his brothers needing to go to Egypt to get food. In between is Noah, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. When did the metaphor and the fiction stop and the true story about the Hebrew people begin? Or all of Genesis is fictional and was a metaphor?

 

[rational experiences]

Father taught me. From his memories and not my self Idolating brothers.

Family natural was not civilisation and was first. No organisations. No religions.

Spiritual mutual everyone virtually a healer by psyche wisdom. Family. Every mutual role was filled. We loved life. Working together. Establishing new tribes. Sharing.

Then star fall came. Sporadic phenomena witnessed only to certain men.

Reason exact.....man on origin earth intelligent wise natural psychic had invented science not from star fall. He activated it's release. Nuclear time shift mass.

Earth had survived the sun and became a cojoined mass no longer origin earth and not a sun. Asteroid direct from sun. Known.

Theme all demon aliens from sun held in earth core sun attack were frozen. Earth not scattered as other planets had been.

Known mothership theme of men in science. Aliens don't belong on earth in other words.

Who humans today claim was God man. Is Highest man in memory. Who wanted to time shift. The human only brother not a father scientist.

Father states. The immaculate no longer exists. It's only a Mutual balance supporting light remaining fixed above. Hence you cannot use it in any theory. As in fact it's no longer Immaculate.

Just a support as everything isn't science egotist brother. The lesson you've always ignored.

You ended all life on earth. The Cooled atmosphere owned why science memory emerged as Man's Satan angel cloud memory had emerged. After all life's destruction.

Dinosaurs lived. Your star fall cause came back as it's science predicted known... killed off first dinosaur life. Returned.... Killed off second dinosaur life.

Ice age.

New animal life humans emerged out of the eternal again and it was direct.

Eternal is not the immaculate.

No science. Father mother's human DNA genetic everywhere as the same parent. As they came from the same place. Eternal. Why each species owned a pre body.

Then star fall came. Your mind changed. Bully group tactic of agreed men emerged. Young men wanting control took over the human elders. Murdered father. I saw it.

You then took your changed thought into identifying your old man Satan God memories total destruction of all life on earth giant pyramid. As you heard it speaking in recorded memory just as you identified. From changed brain mind.

The exact known reason why voice is heard speaking. A changed brain mind.

Then you nearly caused it again on earth. Moses testimonial proof after the event.

Tally.

A letter equated a number. Letters became words that formed speech. Although strange stories....put back together the word testimonial proved by storyline man had nearly destroyed all life on earth.

It was proven direct evidence.

As theory is first word thought.

It was evidence only.

As all theories before a human practiced calculus design were told as thesis as stories. It was proven men of science were evil thinkers.

Hence when we know civilisation governing was a chosen evil. When you get science of man caused brain changed. Star fall returned you are reminded why evil civilisation governing and Satanism were chosen.

Is all that it's about in human reality.

Advice how to govern for family as it should be legal. And not about anything else. To govern correctly for family when it never had been allowed by greedy satanic man mind history.

Science his choice only.

Ology ...how pretty a rock is. Philosophy only.

Therefore in Jesus data. Man used letter data word predictive future. And did in fact name men's names as identified satanic mind destroyer living again. In the future.

As men thinking had depicted the sciences. Even though earth is naturally formed.

They told a predicted story of the satanic science organisation destroying life in the future. By the same process letter data.

Galileo was one of them ...lie gaol exact.

Yet titillated by his drawing predictions Satanists kept all literature.

As an organisation they've always known why it had been predicted. As only in the presence of human men is science chosen by machine terms.

No man is God was exact.

Science legally had been outlawed as it was known as life's destroyer.

And it's blatantly obvious it is.

The difference earth causes in attack by man science vary. As each time earth shifted its mass.

As earth had a four day earthquake carpenter shift plate...tectonic end. Last eating consuming of earths mass body by 12 body calculus light gas.

The bio blood sacrifice changes to human animal nature sacrificed said although the end outcome wasnt the same as earths flooding rains UFO melt hit mount Ararat.

It was because earths mass had time shifted in Moses event. So the planetary advice is never the same.

Is what the history satanic sciences against gods earth forms is.

Not about self idolisation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see people completely passionate about not being united.

By unity I mean human rights for all and world cooperation instead of confrontation and conflict. I don’t think people are passionate about disunity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For adultery the Quran says...

[24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out God’s law, if you truly believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.​

For adultery and homosexuality, the Bible says...

Leviticus 20:10 10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13 13 If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death.
​

In the Baha'i Faith is says...

The punishment for adultery and fornication according to Bahaullah is punishable by a fine paid to the Universal House of Justice, (UHJ). On page 15 of Kitab-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book), he writes, "It is a must for every adulterer and adulteress that they must pay to the Universal House of Justice and give 9 mithqals of gold.
​

So, God wanted them killed. Then I don't think there's punishment given in the NT. Then in the Quran it's 100 lashes and nothing for homosexuality? And then in the Baha'i Faith adultery is a fine. So, why isn't there a fine for homosexual sex? It's left between the individuals and God? But God doesn't want them to do it. So, what's God going to do about it? Especially since God says to fine people caught committing adultery. But if it's a man with a man or a woman with a woman, no fine if caught having that kind of sex?

Next question, who's going to catch them in the act? If adulterers keep it private, isn't that also just between them and God?

These laws are really a private matter between the individual and God. But if Baha’is had things like drinking parties or sex parties whether homosexual or heterosexual then usually the action is to first educate and if they continue then they could lose their voting rights but only in extreme cases. In cases of adultery it would have to be reported to the Baha’i authorities but it’s very possible that these things go on privately. However, it is one’s soul and spirit which takes a backward step if laws are disobeyed even privately and secretly.

So if I lie and cheat I lose my trustworthiness and truthfulness and corrupt my own character. If someone were to reprimand me to help me come to my senses that it was not in my interest to lie then that person would be doing me a great favour. It is not a matter of don’t do this or don’t do that but about developing a virtuous character which we are told leads to happiness and contentment.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's easy for us today to make the creation story fictional or metaphorical. But the way it is written in Genesis, it is part of a continuing story that leads all the way to the Joseph becoming a leader in Egypt and, because of a famine, his brothers needing to go to Egypt to get food. In between is Noah, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. When did the metaphor and the fiction stop and the true story about the Hebrew people begin? Or all of Genesis is fictional and was a metaphor?

Abdul'baha said it best CG I will just quote what Abdul'baha offered in this link.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

"If we were to take this account according to the literal meaning of the words as indicated by their common usage, it would indeed be exceedingly strange, and human minds would be excused from accepting, affirming, or imagining it. For such elaborate arrangements and details, such statements and reproaches would be implausible even coming from an intelligent person, let alone from the Divinity Himself, Who has arranged this infinite universe in the most perfect form and arrayed its countless beings in the utmost order, soundness, and perfection.

One must pause awhile to reflect: If the outward meaning of this account were to be attributed to a wise man, all men of wisdom would assuredly deny it, arguing that such a scheme and arrangement could not possibly have proceeded from such a person. The account of Adam and Eve, their eating from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise are therefore symbols and divine mysteries. They have all-embracing meanings and marvellous interpretations, but only the intimates of the divine mysteries and the well-favoured of the all-sufficing Lord are aware of the true significance of these symbols.

These verses of the Torah have therefore numerous meanings..........Note that if these words were taken literally, as imagined by the people of the Book, it would be sheer injustice and absolute tyranny. If Adam sinned in approaching the forbidden tree, what then was the sin of glorious Abraham, the Friend of God, and the error of Moses, Who conversed with God? What was the offence of Noah the Prophet and the transgression of truth-speaking Joseph? What was the fault of the Prophets of God and the failure of John the Chaste? Would divine justice have suffered these luminous Manifestations to endure, by reason of Adam’s sin, the torment of hell until such time as Christ should come and by His sacrifice rescue them from the nethermost fire? Such a notion is beyond the pale of every rule and principle, and no rational person can ever accept it."

So that is indeed a clear and logical answer and very suited to this day when the scientific mind would not accept the literal words as recorded.

Thus you could choose to see what one of the explanations is by reading what Abdul'baha offered as one meaning of that story. At the end Abdul'baha says, "This is but one of the meanings of the biblical account of Adam. Reflect, that you may discover the others."

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Abdul'baha said it best CG I will just quote what Abdul'baha offered in this link.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

"If we were to take this account according to the literal meaning of the words as indicated by their common usage, it would indeed be exceedingly strange, and human minds would be excused from accepting, affirming, or imagining it. For such elaborate arrangements and details, such statements and reproaches would be implausible even coming from an intelligent person, let alone from the Divinity Himself, Who has arranged this infinite universe in the most perfect form and arrayed its countless beings in the utmost order, soundness, and perfection.

One must pause awhile to reflect: If the outward meaning of this account were to be attributed to a wise man, all men of wisdom would assuredly deny it, arguing that such a scheme and arrangement could not possibly have proceeded from such a person. The account of Adam and Eve, their eating from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise are therefore symbols and divine mysteries. They have all-embracing meanings and marvellous interpretations, but only the intimates of the divine mysteries and the well-favoured of the all-sufficing Lord are aware of the true significance of these symbols.

These verses of the Torah have therefore numerous meanings..........Note that if these words were taken literally, as imagined by the people of the Book, it would be sheer injustice and absolute tyranny. If Adam sinned in approaching the forbidden tree, what then was the sin of glorious Abraham, the Friend of God, and the error of Moses, Who conversed with God? What was the offence of Noah the Prophet and the transgression of truth-speaking Joseph? What was the fault of the Prophets of God and the failure of John the Chaste? Would divine justice have suffered these luminous Manifestations to endure, by reason of Adam’s sin, the torment of hell until such time as Christ should come and by His sacrifice rescue them from the nethermost fire? Such a notion is beyond the pale of every rule and principle, and no rational person can ever accept it."

So that is indeed a clear and logical answer and very suited to this day when the scientific mind would not accept the literal words as recorded.

Thus you could choose to see what one of the explanations is by reading what Abdul'baha offered as one meaning of that story. At the end Abdul'baha says, "This is but one of the meanings of the biblical account of Adam. Reflect, that you may discover the others."

Regards Tony

Still, it is written as a continuing story. Do Baha'is believe all of Genesis is symbolic? That, to me, would make no sense. But to keep it simple, I think it is just myth. The writer had to start somewhere so he made up a fictional, mythical beginning where a creator God makes everything and then creates the first humans. That gets the story of the children of Israel going. They end up as slaves in Egypt, and that gets us to Moses. From there God gives them the land of Canaan. The different tribes get a piece of the land. They have wars, tests and trials and then they get a King, David. They get conquered and taken away captive. Then they are allowed to return to the land.

So, is it all symbolic? Is some of it real, historical events? Is some of it embellished stories based on legends and myths? The Baha'i focus is primarily on those Bible stories they can explain away by making them symbolic. Do you really think the writer was that ingenious? Only if you believe God was the writer. Is that what Baha'is believe? That God dictated some profound symbolic story to some man that nobody would know the true meaning of that story for thousands of years? I don't think so, I think the stories had plenty of meaning for the Jews and later the Christians who, just like the Baha'is, took those stories and put their own interpretations and meanings into them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Still, it is written as a continuing story. Do Baha'is believe all of Genesis is symbolic? That, to me, would make no sense. But to keep it simple, I think it is just myth. The writer had to start somewhere so he made up a fictional, mythical beginning where a creator God makes everything and then creates the first humans. That gets the story of the children of Israel going. They end up as slaves in Egypt, and that gets us to Moses. From there God gives them the land of Canaan. The different tribes get a piece of the land. They have wars, tests and trials and then they get a King, David. They get conquered and taken away captive. Then they are allowed to return to the land.

So, is it all symbolic? Is some of it real, historical events? Is some of it embellished stories based on legends and myths? The Baha'i focus is primarily on those Bible stories they can explain away by making them symbolic. Do you really think the writer was that ingenious? Only if you believe God was the writer. Is that what Baha'is believe? That God dictated some profound symbolic story to some man that nobody would know the true meaning of that story for thousands of years? I don't think so, I think the stories had plenty of meaning for the Jews and later the Christians who, just like the Baha'is, took those stories and put their own interpretations and meanings into them.

You get to choose CG. Renovations at home and work keep me busy.

I am posting on 3 forums, but thinking it will soon be very little. No one wants to look with new eyes and hear with new ears, they are happy with the status quo, so I am walking away from most conversations.

Regards Tony

Even when one gives the most logical.proofs.

 

[joelr]

Many people have things very wrong, but 100% it was not Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'ullah.

Regards Tony

Well the Bahai messenger got a bunch of science claims wrong including saying the ether was real (it was thought to be real then), an incorrect statement about evolution and several other things.

But Muhammad and Jesus cannot both be correct. Muhammad said Christians and Jews are liers and perverse? So if that is true than the other one cannot be true?

30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

120 And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.

 

[rational experiences]

If Idolating men stopped false preaching. Then you'd find yourselves in a thinking thoughtful mutual position

One species on gods earth dominion place...human. two of. Created equally and mutually.

No garden eviction thesis involved.

Then you ask man what did you do wrong?

First memory states. Phenomena caused brain attack consciousness came back from Satan's falling star.

The asteroid attack that origin science man caused. Destroyed all life on earth.

Archaeological proven an ology man's pursuit of proof.

Destroyed two different dinosaur eras.

Gave earth ice age.

Saviour position ice. New.

Human life returns even though it had all been destroyed before.

Came out of the eternal position.

Life. Equal. Balanced.

Brain changed burnt. Heard old man of gods earth sciences speaking. Star fall had returned. Asteroids were iced frozen exact.

Pyramid technology. Decides first to build civilisation. Gets rich. Gods cities he said as king lord rich man control. Prophet science maths calculator. Positions of titles.

Man wrong history.

Applies gods sciences himself and burns combust attacks nature nearly destroys all life on earth. Garden eviction.

As the looking back story was data advice. A letter formed a word. Science language documented. New language introduced taught as gods recognised truths. No argument.

By humans legal position. Reviewed.

Reason. Ice mass body owns life supported heavens bio safety. Red celled warmed iron bonded cell life. In water holy. Stable not nuclear.

Science removed it. Exactly told.

It owned no name as science is a leadership destroyer as national man agreed upon. Science the name used title. Once Satan.

Exactly taught also.

You are mutual equal just human first. Not named. Family humanity.

Taught.