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There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

So is it not then logical that we could then prove the Messengers by comparing the Attibutes?

Then in that process, those that are false, will start to become obvious?

Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I see 'messengers' as self proclaimed either by themselves or as a group.

It's always people each and every time, tooting their own horns representing something they will never produce, so it's an internal matter among those privy to the 'messenger' angle.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see 'messengers' as self proclaimed either by themselves or as a group.

It's always people each and every time, tooting their own horns representing something they will never produce, so it's an internal matter among those privy to the 'messenger' angle.

Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

Regards Tony
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

Regards Tony
Well followers of an ideal, but not in any real way past the notion. Messengers of that perhaps, but nothing beyond that as I see it.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well followers of an ideal, but not in any real way past the notion. Messengers of that perhaps, but nothing beyond that as I see it.

I see that is what Messengers bring us, the ideals of God.

So it appears they do achieve the aim, but only to the extent we have the capacity to embrace those ideals.

Regards Tony
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I see that is what Messengers bring us, the ideals of God.

So it appears they do achieve the aim, but only to the extent we have the capacity to embrace those ideals.


Regards Tony
Let's put it this way.

It's hard if not completely impossible to be a messenger of something, anything, that has never been seen or heard by anyone other than arguably, its human proclaimer.


That's my argument used against messengers.

You need the one sending the message first, otherwise it firmly remains heresy and conjecture at best.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let's put it this way.

It's hard if not completely impossible to be a messenger of something, anything, that has never been seen or heard by anyone other than arguably, its human proclaimer.


That's my argument used against messengers.

You need the one sending the message first, otherwise it firmly remains heresy and conjecture at best.

That is because it is indeed a New Message, it is explained in previous messages that it is brought to create a New Heaven and a New Earth, it is a Message to makes all things new.

Your observation is correct.

Regards Tony
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

So is it not then logical that we could then prove the Messengers by comparing the Attibutes?

Then in that process, those that are false, will start to become obvious?

Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony


How about a person of non faith?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How about a person of non faith?

Anyone can reject a Messenger. That is their choice and that is not what this OP is about.

But, if you have accepted and follow a Messenger, let's say Jesus, then choose to reject another God given Messenger, then that is tantamount to rejecting the Message embraced through Jesus.

Any argument you use against any other God given Faith, will be applicable to your own.

That us what this OP is exploring.

Thus I offer we try to explore the Messengers by their fruits, what they have shown us to be productive, and not destructive, in this life.

Regards
 

Suave

Simulated character
Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

So is it not then logical that we could then prove the Messengers by comparing the Attibutes?

Then in that process, those that are false, will start to become obvious?

Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony


God has messaged us the mathematical pattern in our genetic code conveying to me the symbol of an Egyptian triangle as well as the number 37 embedded in our genetic code.

Eight of the canonical amino acids can be sufficiently defined by the composition of their codon's first and second base nucleotides. The nucleon sum of these amino acids' side chains is 333 (=37 * 3 squared), the sun of their block nucleons (basic core structure) is 592 (=37 * 4 squared), and the sum of their total nucleons is 925 (=37 * 5 squared ). With 37 factored out, this results in 3 squared + 4 squared equals 5 squared, which is representative of an Egyptian triangle.

Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code
Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak, Maxim A. Makukov
Publish Year: 2013
Cite as: arXiv:1303.6739 [q-bio_OT]
DOI: 10.1016/j.icarus.2013.02.017
Journal reference: Icarus, 2013, 224 (1), 228-242

The “Wow! signal” of the terrestrial genetic code (earth-chronicles.ru)

I figure the mathematical pattern of the number 37 being used as a key factor for conveying an Egyptian triangle is related to the gematria value of 37 appearing in the Hebrew language of Genesis 1:1.

genesis%2B11%2Bvalues.png



The 3 main words (God, the heaven, the earth) in Hebrew have a gematria numeric value of 777 (111x7), ". which is divisible by 37.

The numeric value of the entire verse is 2701 which is divisible by 37.

We may now proceed to finding the number 37 interlaced in the first verse of the Bible. We can do this by discovering words or groups of words with number values evenly divisible by 37, e.g. the 3 main words (“God” + ”the heaven” + ”the earth” = 777 = 21x37), the 5 first words (“In the beginning” + “created” + “God” + “*” + “the heaven” = 1998 = 54x37), or the last two words separately (“and” = 407 = 11x37 and “the earth” = 296 = 8x37)

In conclusion, we shall have no other gods before the Creator of the heavens and Earth, life's Creator,!
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God has messaged us the mathematical pattern in our genetic code conveying to me the symbol of an Egyptian triangle as well as the number 37 embedded in our genetic code.

Eight of the canonical amino acids can be sufficiently defined by the composition of their codon's first and second base nucleotides. The nucleon sum of these amino acids' side chains is 333 (=37 * 3 squared), the sun of their block nucleons (basic core structure) is 592 (=37 * 4 squared), and the sum of their total nucleons is 925 (=37 * 5 squared ). With 37 factored out, this results in 3 squared + 4 squared equals 5 squared, which is representative of an Egyptian triangle.

Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code
Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak, Maxim A. Makukov
Publish Year: 2013
Cite as: arXiv:1303.6739 [q-bio_OT]
DOI: 10.1016/j.icarus.2013.02.017
Journal reference: Icarus, 2013, 224 (1), 228-242

The “Wow! signal” of the terrestrial genetic code (earth-chronicles.ru)

I figure the mathematical pattern of the number 37 being used as a key factor for conveying an Egyptian triangle is related to the gematria value of 37 appearing in the Hebrew language of Genesis 1:1.

genesis%2B11%2Bvalues.png



The 3 main words (God, the heaven, the earth) in Hebrew have a gematria numeric value of 777 (111x7), ". which is divisible by 37.

The numeric value of the entire verse is 2701 which is divisible by 37.

We may now proceed to finding the number 37 interlaced in the first verse of the Bible. We can do this by discovering words or groups of words with number values evenly divisible by 37, e.g. the 3 main words (“God” + ”the heaven” + ”the earth” = 777 = 21x37), the 5 first words (“In the beginning” + “created” + “God” + “*” + “the heaven” = 1998 = 54x37), or the last two words separately (“and” = 407 = 11x37 and “the earth” = 296 = 8x37)

In conclusion, we shall have no other gods before the Creator of the heavens and Earth, life's Creator,!

So Numbers can be used to prove a Messenger. I would agree. There are many that have explored this concept, I have a great interest in this concept, but have not gone too deeply Into it, but to know numbers are significant.

As for seven being exclusive to the Bible and Christianity, maybe one can also consider the Quran.


The Beautiful Arrangement of “Seven” in the Qur’an

So you can now logically agree that the Quran shows there is also no other God other than Allah.

Here is another one for You. 9 plays a part in Prophecy, especially for the end of the Ages and the Messanic appearance.

Times, times and half a time, or
3 1/2 years, or
42 months, or
1260 days.

They all equal 9

Baha, who is Baha'u'llah has the value of 9.

"The numerical value for the word 'Bahá'. (B=2, h=5, a=1, and there is an accent at the end of the word which is also = 1; the 'a' after the 'B' is not written in Persian so it does not count.) In the Semitic languages—both Arabic and Hebrew—every letter of the alphabet had a numerical value, so instead of using figures to denote numbers they used letters and compounds of letters. Thus every word had both a literal meaning and also a numerical value. This practice is no more in use but during the time of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb it was quite in vogue among the educated classes, and we find it very much used in the Bayán. As the word Bahá also stood for the number nine it could be used interchangeably with it."

Would you like us now to explore the Numbers that prove Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?
I don't see Jesus ever claiming he's a messenger.

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?
I don't see many Christians, either historically or currently, following Jesus. Oddly I see many atheists who live lives very consistently with what Jesus taught, but aren't religious. What is a collection of Christian institutions historically and globally is largely a product of politics and power, and often murderous in its expression of authority.

So a lot of problems you create in your questions.
 

Suave

Simulated character
So Numbers can be used to prove a Messenger. I would agree. There are many that have explored this concept, I have a great interest in this concept, but have not gone too deeply Into it, but to know numbers are significant.

As for seven being exclusive to the Bible and Christianity, maybe one can also consider the Quran.


The Beautiful Arrangement of “Seven” in the Qur’an

So you can now logically agree that the Quran shows there is also no other God other than Allah.

Here is another one for You. 9 plays a part in Prophecy, especially for the end of the Ages and the Messanic appearance.

Times, times and half a time, or
3 1/2 years, or
42 months, or
1260 days.

They all equal 9

Baha, who is Baha'u'llah has the value of 9.

"The numerical value for the word 'Bahá'. (B=2, h=5, a=1, and there is an accent at the end of the word which is also = 1; the 'a' after the 'B' is not written in Persian so it does not count.) In the Semitic languages—both Arabic and Hebrew—every letter of the alphabet had a numerical value, so instead of using figures to denote numbers they used letters and compounds of letters. Thus every word had both a literal meaning and also a numerical value. This practice is no more in use but during the time of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb it was quite in vogue among the educated classes, and we find it very much used in the Bayán. As the word Bahá also stood for the number nine it could be used interchangeably with it."

Would you like us now to explore the Numbers that prove Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Regards Tony
"As the babe is born into the light of this physical world, so must the physical and intellectual man be born into the light of the world of Divinity. In the matrix of the mother the unborn child was deprived and unconscious of the world of material existence, but after its birth it beheld the wonders and beauties of a new realm of life and being. In the world of the matrix it was utterly ignorant and unable to conceive of these new conditions, but after its transformation it discovers the radiant sun, trees, flowers and an infinite range of blessings and bounties awaiting it. In the human plane and kingdom man is a captive of nature and ignorant of the divine world until born of the breaths of the Holy Spirit out of physical conditions of limitation and deprivation. Then he beholds the reality of the spiritual realm and Kingdom, realizes the narrow restrictions of the mere human world of existence and becomes conscious of the unlimited and infinite glories of the world of God."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 288-289
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I see that is what Messengers bring us, the ideals of God.

So it appears they do achieve the aim, but only to the extent we have the capacity to embrace those ideals.

Regards Tony
You telling us these claims is essentially hearsay. We don't have any actual Messengers to impress us, just ordinary, flawed mortals like yourself telling us they're real. And we are not convinced you are correct.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

I don't follow messengers. My faith has a history, but that's it, for me.

But let's try this...

I make the argument that Bahaullah was a man on Earth, and probably not of some really powerful God.

And my chosen deity is the Goddess with my faith.

So let's turn this around, then. "The Goddess was a man on this Earth and not of some really powerful God."
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Sometimes I think the best way of interpreting those verses is not to say "This applies to other people", and weaponizing it, but to read it and say, "This applies to anyone it addresses, including myself if I somehow fall astray."
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

The problem with going by billions of followers, and saying that it shows Jesus was correct, is that the argument can be used against Bahaullah and others due to the number of followers the Baha'i faith has so far produced. Might even be able to point to that saying "Christianity is more correct".
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
All stories as told are written in books by their human authors.

Science of men is a calculated term. I use then apply numbers. I say a future is a date by a number. I hence said as just a man human in about 1000 years time Jesus teaching will be reinherited. As sacrificed life. Saved life. Survived life.

On earth.

All said and taught by humans as humans for humans.

So if you begin as a life equal.

No self idolisation exists. Parent as adults are the forebears. Plain fact of life. Mutual innocent equal respect no idolising terms.

Respect of your human as the elders. Who traded with family...extended family.

No titles of king or Lord. No rich human no poor human. Exact. Ignored.

Exact real human basis.

The rich man king lord murdered sacrificed life. His own innocent holy life conscious mind gone also. Taught.

Did it to himself. Man realised his reason questions his own spirituality and asks his father....asks why don't they listen to conscious messages. Advised fact falling wandering star.

Pretty basic reason why Baha'i event says yes old Jesus review was inherited.

Yet men say you weren't the sacrificed man. Exact.

The shroud evidence not Baha'i was the sacrificed man. Baha'i just had a man's ecstatic body mind change. A notification.

Different nations. Different DNA. Different fallout. Different biology effects. Why it wasn't agreed as just one man's advice. Effect is personal inherited.

Why they kept evidence. As it was the same science argument as before. Brothers in other countries were not as hurt.

Human behaviour says if I'm not affected I'll continue science converting in my country. Could care less if your countrymen are attacked.

Until they get attacked.

As earth owned O the human life support.

Sacrifice to all things was not just one man.

Which is why you taught it incorrectly.

Ones man problem as his reason his one state was his ego. To be self sacrificed. Yet he had all things attacked.

One man's truth his conscious innocent human life spirituality rights. Human rights.
 
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