There are no errors in the Qur'an

[Jabar]

Does the Qur'an mention jesus was sinless?

You're religion is unknown now?

 

[Faronator]

Do you listen to a scholar or what the scriptures tell you?

Muhammad would be an example of someone who never intentionally sinned.

Besides, sinning does not matter as we learn from our sins and mistakes.

We were made to sin but to learn from them and repent.

We have a free will which is why we are superior to other Allah has made.

First it was he never sinned....

Then it was he never intentionally sinned....

Or were those typos too?

 

[Jabar]

First it was he never sinned....

Then it was he never intentionally sinned....

Or were those typos too?

Either way i do not think you comprehended what i said.

Lets say he was to sin, even though it would probably be very very little amount.

Repenting and Dua is a gift and blessing from Allah.

We learn from our sins and mistakes once again i repeat we LEARN AND WE ARE FORGIVED.

So, that point is not relevant.

 

[anonymous9887]

You're religion is unknown now?

Yes what ever I do or say should be attributed to me. If I happen to say negative comments it should not be given to anybody but myself.

 

[YmirGF]

You see what's wrong when you just read Quran (especially in translation).
Since it's huge topic I won't go deep into debate, but you can check read more about that verse here.

Edit: Pasted image by accident.

I think this particular topic is a good example where modern understanding is inserted into the understanding of people of that era. Medically and physiologically they were almost completely ignorant and such a ridiculous description would have been adequate up until the 1500's or so. Now, when presented with this, Muslim are forced to pretend that the Qur'an is telling a "truth" without admitting it is a "truth" meant for ignorant folks that didn't know better. What gives this such great traction is that Muslims have been rattling on and on about the divinity of the Qur'an from fairly early on and so have painted themselves into an awkward corner.

As any White House press spokesperson knows, you can massage the facts in such a way so that they say whatever you want them to say. That Muslims were forced to come up with these wonderful "explanations" to make absurdity sound meaningful proves the intellectual crisis that exists in Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

We defied your god with space travel

O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass! Qur'an 55:33

Pfffft... Well, since mankind did pass beyond the zones, quite obviously they were authorized to do so. Muslims didn't have to take part in this.

 

[Augustus]

Actually I have a very good grasp on pre-Islamic Arabia right into the Islamic takeover.
As with all the Abrahamic faiths, Islam is an invented religion, it is based on a rearrangement of earlier 'pagan' Arabian beliefs which intermingled with Christian, Judaic, Roman/Greco, Vedic, and Mesopotamian structures.

Seeing as it is an Abrahamic faith, don't you think that it came from Abrahamic faiths (specifically Syriac Christianity) rather than paganism? Of course all religions are influenced by pre-existing beliefs an rituals, but the paganism in Quran is very minor and inconsequential.

It's very questionable how much paganism still existed in the 7th C. Arabia was not a backwater, but a place integrated into the local region and with the Romans and Persians. Paganism appears to have died out in either 3rd or 5th C in Himyar/Yemen (can't remember which off the top of my head). Northern Arabia had been mostly Christian for centuries. The East and west were also significantly 'Abrahamised' long before Islam.

Central Arabia we have less of a record for as the Saudis aren't really into archaeology, but it is hard to believe that everywhere in Arabia had long been largely monotheised, except the central parts who remained resolutely pagan.

The initial audience of the Quran are not pagans but Abrahamic monotheists. The text would make no sense to pagans as it references Biblical characters and Christian/Jewish theological issues without ever explaining or narrating them. It clearly assumes the audience is already reasonably familiar with the Abrahamic corpus.

Allah can be traced to pre-Islamic beliefs in a lunar god, although Allah may have been treated as a Creator deity much like the Egyptian Khnum, He was not the most worshiped. The most worshiped were three goddesses, Al'Lat, which simply means 'goddess', Al'Uzza, literally 'the strong one' who is the full moon and the mother aspect, Al'Menat, the waning but wise goddess of fate, prophecy and divination. Mohammed supplanted Al'Lat with Allah, carrying over the Abrahamic tradition of destroying the Feminine aspect of spirituality.

Or it is a cognate of the Syriac Alaha meaning God. Religious terminology in the Quran is almost entirely from Syriac (rather than Greek or Hebrew), which adds further weight to this perspective.

The term Allah was used by pre-Islamic Arab Christians too (as was the bishmillah).

You see it IS about Arabic language, which certainly is a slippery slope with an incredible amount of leeway to each word allowing them to be used to one's advantage.

That's pretty much all languages.

Anyway, as regards the point I made, 'the furthest place of prostration/prayer' cannot be translated into 'the al-Aqsa mosque'. That is an interpolation, not a translation.

[It's also probably about Moses, not Muhammed]

Keep in mind that Islam encourages its followers to lie under certain circumstances in the form of Taqqiya and Kitman. The former is the direct manipulation of truth and the latter the lie of omission. They are allowed in circumstances, including but not limited to, gaining the trust of non believers in order to convert or to destroy them.

Please, enough of this 'taqiyya' conspiracy theory nonsense. It reflects previous legalistic trends in Judaism (for example), where taking forced baptism was not counted as apostasising. The idea that it is rife in the Muslim population is absurd. Most Muslims probably couldn't even tell you what the term means as it is far more important to anti-islamic polemicists than it is to the average Muslim.

 

[Faronator]

Either way i do not think you comprehended what i said.

Lets say he was to sin, even though it would probably be very very little amount.

Repenting and Dua is a gift and blessing from Allah.

We learn from our sins and mistakes once again i repeat we LEARN AND WE ARE FORGIVED.

So, that point is not relevant.

It is relevant because you still didn't tell me which you really meant and NOW you are saying "let's say he was to sin" which is to imply "I don't know if he did but IF he did - he can repent."

You are all over the place and I think it's hilarious especially how you now say it isn't relevant but it is or we wouldn't be talking about it.

It's the difference in black and white. Either he sinned, didn't, or you don't know. Which is it? Because in this thread alone you've already made all 3 claims. It cannot be all three.....

This is why no one takes you seriously my young friend. Instead of trolling and grasping at straws all the time - be our friend and learn something, pal.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

A blind cannot see or know the value of a diamond which is sad and unfortunate.
A ignorant man who thinks that coal is more beautiful in appearance than any gem and shuts his eye to maintain his illusion, its best to stop discussion with him.

A 15 year old makes a thread to troll and doesn't accept the obvious faults in his logic and book.
And people are still giving reasonable statements.
HE WILL NEVER ADMIT that the Quran is not accurate even if it is proved to him by science a hundred times over.
And lash out at other religions.

 

[EtuMalku]

Seeing as it is an Abrahamic faith, don't you think that it came from Abrahamic faiths (specifically Syriac Christianity) rather than paganism?

Read my post carefully . . .

Of course all religions are influenced by pre-existing beliefs an rituals, but the paganism in Quran is very minor and inconsequential

"minor and inconsequential" . . . in what way?

It's very questionable how much paganism still existed in the 7th C. Arabia was not a backwater, but a place integrated into the local region and with the Romans and Persians. Paganism appears to have died out in either 3rd or 5th C in Himyar/Yemen (can't remember which off the top of my head). Northern Arabia had been mostly Christian for centuries. The East and west were also significantly 'Abrahamised' long before Islam.

According to the library of books I've been reading in lieu of writing a book, Pagan Arabia was very much indeed in a healthy state right up to and even past the Islamic takeover.

The initial audience of the Quran are not pagans but Abrahamic monotheists. The text would make no sense to pagans as it references Biblical characters and Christian/Jewish theological issues without ever explaining or narrating them. It clearly assumes the audience is already reasonably familiar with the Abrahamic corpus.

I suppose you are not clear on the mission of Islam?

Anyway, as regards the point I made, 'the furthest place of prostration/prayer' cannot be translated into 'the al-Aqsa mosque'. That is an interpolation, not a translation.
[It's also probably about Moses, not Muhammed]

You're disagreeing with a Muslim scholar, not me . . .

 

[Augustus]

Read my post carefully . . .

You said "based on a rearrangement of earlier 'pagan' Arabian beliefs which intermingled with Christian, Judaic, Roman/Greco, Vedic, and Mesopotamian structures."

This is a bit like describing a steak dinner as "a parsley garnish intermingled with beef and potatoes"

It is not really a 'rearrangement' of pagan beliefs, it is largely (a commentary on) Syriac Christianity and the late antique (mostly Abrahamic) religious environment, with very little overt reference to paganism outside a handful of verses.

"minor and inconsequential" . . . in what way?

What I mean is that almost no recognisable paganism in the Quran except a few verse of Surat an-Najm.

Whether the mushriken (associators) are polytheists or not quite monotheist enough monotheists is also contentious.

What specifically do you view as being the clear pagan influences that suggest it was an evolution of Arab paganism, rather than an evolution of Syriac Christianity?

According to the library of books I've been reading in lieu of writing a book, Pagan Arabia was very much indeed in a healthy state right up to and even past the Islamic takeover.

Perhaps, I've never really looked much into how many pagans were left. Arabia clearly was mostly Abrahamic by the 7th C though.

Any recommendations on paganism at the advent of Islam (Books or articles)? most sources I've seen are a bit outdated.

Also, where is the information in these texts coming from? There is a distinct lack of Arab sources until 200AH+.

I suppose you are not clear on the mission of Islam?

The Quran seems to be advocating a 'return' to pious monotheism in expectation of the eschaton.

What do you see it as being?

You're disagreeing with a Muslim scholar, not me . . .

I'm not arguing with him because I know what he is doing. He is using interpolations to make the text clearer which is common in translation/discussion of religious text and isn't wrong. The stuff in bold is interpolated.

It [Sura 17] opens with the night journey of the Holy Prophet [Mohammed]: he was transported from the sacred mosque (of Makkah) to the Farthest Mosque (of Jerusalem) in a night and shown some of the Signs of Allah

My only point was that it is not in the Quran that al-masjid al-aqsa (the furthest mosque) is the actual al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. This can only be worked out with recourse to hadith and sirah, as can the idea that it is about Muhammed, which doesn't fit into the context of the rest of the chapter.

Orthodox Islamic understanding agrees with Ali, but then again it also agrees he split the moon in 2.

I was talking in the context of history though, you are talking in the context of theology.

 

[YmirGF]

It is relevant because you still didn't tell me which you really meant and NOW you are saying "let's say he was to sin" which is to imply "I don't know if he did but IF he did - he can repent."

You are all over the place and I think it's hilarious especially how you now say it isn't relevant but it is or we wouldn't be talking about it.

It's the difference in black and white. Either he sinned, didn't, or you don't know. Which is it? Because in this thread alone you've already made all 3 claims. It cannot be all three.....

This is why no one takes you seriously my young friend. Instead of trolling and grasping at straws all the time - be our friend and learn something, pal.

I, for one, am still quite impressed. He is fairly remarkable for a 15 year old kid! @Jabar

 

[Jabar]

It is relevant because you still didn't tell me which you really meant and NOW you are saying "let's say he was to sin" which is to imply "I don't know if he did but IF he did - he can repent."

You are all over the place and I think it's hilarious especially how you now say it isn't relevant but it is or we wouldn't be talking about it.

It's the difference in black and white. Either he sinned, didn't, or you don't know. Which is it? Because in this thread alone you've already made all 3 claims. It cannot be all three.....

This is why no one takes you seriously my young friend. Instead of trolling and grasping at straws all the time - be our friend and learn something, pal.

You are acting brainwashed.

It does not matter if he sinned or not once again.

Repenting to Allah and asking to forgive for the sins you committed is important.

He never sinned intentionally.

You are not getting my point, it is about learning from your mistakes and then making a commitment to not committing them again.

 

[Jabar]

I, for one, am still quite impressed. He is fairly remarkable for a 15 year old kid! @Jabar

Haha, i do not find myself to be impressive all that much.

The complexity of the Qur'an is what makes me speak remarkable.

 

[Jabar]

A blind cannot see or know the value of a diamond which is sad and unfortunate.
A ignorant man who thinks that coal is more beautiful in appearance than any gem and shuts his eye to maintain his illusion, its best to stop discussion with him.

A 15 year old makes a thread to troll and doesn't accept the obvious faults in his logic and book.
And people are still giving reasonable statements.
HE WILL NEVER ADMIT that the Quran is not accurate even if it is proved to him by science a hundred times over.
And lash out at other religions.

You coming back to hate??

You just state your beliefs.

I could say 2+2=5; However, give no proof behind that answer or claim.

I am telling you 2+2=4.

You are telling me NOPE, without giving evidence that 2+2= 5

Then you proceed to say i am trolling since i say 2+2=4

Whilst you believe 2+2=5

On top of that, you accuse me of lashing out on religions but indeed you are describing your own self.

 

[Jabar]

What do you think people have been doing on this thread?
You are the infallible creation of Allah... No one is right. No one can read the Quran but you.
I mean the talent you are endowed with is indescribable!!
You can never be wrong..nor is the Quran... It is the truth of God that can only be understood by your mercy who's the new last prophet of Islam.
You've managed to create a fool of yourself for the 10th page of this thread meant to troll and beat your chest and scream "Allah hu Akbar".
And you expect anyone to take you seriously?

That's wrong, many people read the Qur'an as i d.

You should refrain from the insults as it would make this environment a more safer one.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

That's wrong, many people read the Qur'an as i d.

You should refrain from the insults as it would make this environment a more safer one.

Refrain from insults or refrain from pointing out the obvious holes in the Quran that according to you is A gem

 

[Jabar]

Refrain from insults or refrain from pointing out the obvious holes in the Quran that according to you is A gem

Give me one.

 

[YmirGF]

Haha, i do not find myself to be impressive all that much.

The complexity of the Qur'an is what makes me speak remarkable.

Actually, given you are still young and have a lack of experience in real life you don't have a lot else filling up your head and so can focus on this trivia with ease.

 

[Jabar]

Actually, given you are still young and have a lack of experience in real life you don't have a lot else filling up your head and so can focus on this trivia with ease.

I have a lot of experience for your information...