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Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Other than sound.

Other than infrared, radio or neutrinos. The basics of Quantum Mechanics falsified are not observable.
So, other than all the ways to observe things, things are not observable?

No, QM is emminently falsifiable. The basics have been verified over and over again for the last century. It was observation that *drove* the development of QM.

I'm curious which basics about QM you think are not observable?
Disagree the singularity is like a black hole. It is potentially an object if it existed.
No, the BB singularity is NOT like a BH. They are very distinct types of singularity. A BH, for example, is static in the basic form, while the BB singularity is inherently dynamic. In a BH, time can be defined everywhere; in the BB one characteristic is that time cannot be extended to 'before'.

Maybe if you actually took the time to learn the math and read about the theory, you would not say things that are so false?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Does not really explain the problem, and in fact your response there is more than a bit confusing as to what people believe concerning God or Gods, .The fact that by far most of the people of the world believe in a Theistic God, The world does not ;largely reject God.
No. People say things, that does not mean it is true.
For example, a man says he loves his wife, and then uses her as a punching bag, and throws her off the balcony.
He must not love his wife.
Like wise, many people profess to believe in and accept God, but their actions do not support that.
They believe in something.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No. People say things, that does not mean it is true.
For example, a man says he loves his wife, and then uses her as a punching bag, and throws her off the balcony.
He must not love his wife.
Like wise, many people profess to believe in and accept God, but their actions do not support that.
They believe in something.
Too vague and judgmental of those that believe in God. Being fallible humans with behavior problems has nothing to do with whether people believe in God or not. You have a problem with the fallacy of 'No true Scotsman' or some call the 'Appeal to purity.'
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Those only apply after there are consciousnesses. And that happens only after at least a couple generations of stars. :)

Hmmm...and I see it as incredibly unlikely that such a force would exist given the prerequisites for such a force.

I don't believe that 'intent' existed before life got started. I don't know when life started in the universe at large, but on Earth it was about 3.8 billion years ago. And there is good reason to think that life was impossible until a couple of generations of stars made materials that could allow for life to evolve.

Purpose is another thing that assumes a consciousness. Instead, I see a largely purposeless universe where life is likely to be rare (at least conscious life).


Well before there was life, and human consciousness, it seems there was The Logos - the principle of logic, reason and order. That this was implicit in the universe from the beginning, is evidenced by our capacity to create internally consistent, persuasive models 13.8 billion years into the past. Would a directionless, purposeless universe, exhibit the order that allows us comprehend it?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No. People say things, that does not mean it is true.
For example, a man says he loves his wife, and then uses her as a punching bag, and throws her off the balcony.
He must not love his wife.
Like wise, many people profess to believe in and accept God, but their actions do not support that.
They believe in something.

So they "believe wrongly" then?
Who knows, perhaps you are one of them. :rolleyes:
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well before there was life, and human consciousness, it seems there was The Logos - the principle of logic, reason and order.
1. Why do you think this principle of logic was conscious or has intent? Isn't is simply equivalent to natural laws?

2. Why do you consider this Logos to be an actually existing 'thing' as opposed to simply a trick of language we use to help us describe things?

I would point out that 'order' is very different than 'reason' (which requires a mind) and 'logic' (which is a matter of our description). I would agree that the universe had order before human beings and life. But that does NOT imply there was a reason or that anything used logic prior to humans. In fact, that *we* use reason and logic in order to describe things does NOT mean that reason and logic are part of the universe independent of our minds.

You seem to assume that if there is order and structure, there needs to be a *mind* that creates that order and structure.

Instead, I see minds as the *result* of the order and structure. They are very complex manifestations of the order and structure that arises because things have properties.
That this was implicit in the universe from the beginning, is evidenced by our capacity to create internally consistent, persuasive models 13.8 billion years into the past. Would a directionless, purposeless universe, exhibit the order that allows us comprehend it?
I don't see why not. If things exist and have properties, then there are natural laws (descriptions of those properties) that we can comprehend.

I would point out that purposeless and directionless are different things. A purpose implies an intent, which is not in evidence. A direction only implies consistent properties, which are very much in evidence.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
1. Why do you think this principle of logic was conscious or has intent? Isn't is simply equivalent to natural laws?

2. Why do you consider this Logos to be an actually existing 'thing' as opposed to simply a trick of language we use to help us describe things?

I would point out that 'order' is very different than 'reason' (which requires a mind) and 'logic' (which is a matter of our description). I would agree that the universe had order before human beings and life. But that does NOT imply there was a reason or that anything used logic prior to humans. In fact, that *we* use reason and logic in order to describe things does NOT mean that reason and logic are part of the universe independent of our minds.

You seem to assume that if there is order and structure, there needs to be a *mind* that creates that order and structure.

Instead, I see minds as the *result* of the order and structure. They are very complex manifestations of the order and structure that arises because things have properties.

I don't see why not. If things exist and have properties, then there are natural laws (descriptions of those properties) that we can comprehend.

I would point out that purposeless and directionless are different things. A purpose implies an intent, which is not in evidence. A direction only implies consistent properties, which are very much in evidence.


There is a semantic element to discussions of this nature, as you have observed. Precisely what we mean by terms like order, reason, direction, purpose etc will vary depending on context, and on the perceptions of both the speaker and the listener. The development of language being an organic process, it’s capacity for nuance does not necessarily imply misunderstanding; shades of meaning can just as easily lead to new insights, as they can to confusion.

Yes, logic may be equivalent to natural laws. But consider the etymology of the word; it’s derivation from Logos, which to the Greeks by way of Persia, was generally taken to mean sacred or divine order. Not a million miles away from Kepler’s ideas about sacred geometry, or Dirac’s metaphor of God as a great mathematician. Divinity is implicit in the terms here, though I expect you to take that implication with a heavy dose of scepticism; which is fair enough. I’m not trying to convert you to my philosophical or theological perspectives, I’m just trying to explain how they make sense to me. You will presumably have recognised the reference to John’s Gospel; “In the beginning was the word (logos, in Koine Greek), and the word was God, and the word was with God.”

Order may be different to reason; but the ability to reason depends, does it not, on the capacity to recognise order? We cannot really know which qualities of the universe exist independently of our minds, or whether mind emerges from order; the opposite could equally be true. What we do know if that we are in the universe, and the universe, in idealised form, is in us. Consciousness and reality are in that sense inseparable. If you are familiar with the work of the philosopher David Chalmers, among others, you will be aware of the concept of consciousness as being both fundamental and universal.

And as for purpose and direction, does the use of the word direction not imply the unseen hand of a director?
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Why are the properties of God not in need of explanation, but those of the universe are?
:) Well, if as we were suggesting above, both of us in different wordings, if the 'supernatural' and the 'natural' are the same thing (e.g. if the supernatural is just natural things we don't yet understand, etc.)...then...that question is already answered.

But on the other hand, it's also thought that we are alike to God in some way (of course that fits the above also), and therefore God has agency, and so, considering that, in that God is a being (has agency), then of course we could reasonably conjecture that we could not find/observe Him unless He allows it, and...

well, if I were Him, I would not allow just all comers, myself, but rather only the people that met some reasonable standards of behavior, like respecting the dignity of all others (i.e. including one's imagined opponents or competitors, etc., etc., and the outcast groups, and etc., all people a-z), and so on with other aspects of treating people well...

Just like you or I would do with our own homes: we'd only let someone in that we find acceptable (not harmful) into our own house.

(.e.g. if someone is ranting and being obnoxious, he will have to stay outside, etc.)

So, it's logical from that we could not expect to ever know anything much about God except we met his standards of admission individually.

Among the various teachers about God, Jesus of Nazareth stands out for saying much about what God requires of us, and what is the way to find him, so logically one could not expect to learn anything about God except that they did the things Jesus specified, is my view, in that any neutral reader has to agree that the proactive Golden Rule and Love towards others, and so on He taught is very basic to what is best for peace/civilization.

Even for an atheist, that's the most plausible view I can think of in that way: why wouldn't God have standards, and why wouldn't he enforce them, and so on... Ergo, when Jesus taught that his teaching was the 'way', we could just take that as a potential path then to explore. It's kinda radical in some ways I can say, in that things like "love your neighbor as yourself" is of course life altering.

For most people it would mean radical change, even leaving their current life behind, in that if you love new people without choosing "as yourself" it can be begin sometimes some new life long relationships possibly, and those might alter one's future. It's like leaving one's old life behind in some ways.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
And, in regard to God, why assume a creative force that has consciousness since that is such a complex thing?
Ah, well, assuming the opposite seems...less plausible, actually, and you'll be laughing when you see it (it's just something you already know since long ago no doubt) -- if we are made of matter and have consciousness, then it follows of course that matter elsewhere could have consciousness.

One thing that seems odd to me is the idea that only Earth has intelligent life on it (and of course I don't expect that's your view). It strikes me as a very odd thing to expect, unless....well, the highest probability way to accomplish that only Earth would have life (and nowhere else!) would seem to be having a 'creator'/initiator ;-0 (but the idea that only Earth has life is not my own view: my own view is that life is likely to be very commonplace across the Universe, but usually (as in 99.999...something % of the time) it gets destroyed in less than a billion years by natural phenomena like asteroid impacts, intense stellar flares, CMEs, orbital migration, nearby supernovae, or even just a biochemical dead end, volcanism, and on and on. I think what would be fantastically more rare is a planet that remains safe for life like we know it for billions of years (billions plural). So, I'd consider it plausible for example if we turned out to be the only planet in this galaxy with civilization having language/technology advancement (or not, it could plausibly go either way). And next any advanced technology civilization has to manage not to destroy itself. But, just like (well, not precisely like) Larry Niven's fun science fiction where the Pak Protectors watch over their charges protectively, we may well have an overwatch that protect us... (it's a fun bit Niven invented in the details Pak Protector - Wikipedia) Of course, I expect quite a lot more of God than that version, lol :)
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
There is a semantic element to discussions of this nature, as you have observed. Precisely what we mean by terms like order, reason, direction, purpose etc will vary depending on context, and on the perceptions of both the speaker and the listener. The development of language being an organic process, it’s capacity for nuance does not necessarily imply misunderstanding; shades of meaning can just as easily lead to new insights, as they can to confusion.

Yes, logic may be equivalent to natural laws. But consider the etymology of the word; it’s derivation from Logos, which to the Greeks by way of Persia, was generally taken to mean sacred or divine order. Not a million miles away from Kepler’s ideas about sacred geometry, or Dirac’s metaphor of God as a great mathematician. Divinity is implicit in the terms here, though I expect you to take that implication with a heavy dose of scepticism; which is fair enough. I’m not trying to convert you to my philosophical or theological perspectives, I’m just trying to explain how they make sense to me. You will presumably have recognised the reference to John’s Gospel; “In the beginning was the word (logos, in Koine Greek), and the word was God, and the word was with God.”
Oh, I am quite aware of the neo-Platonism involved in that word. But I also regard that aspect of Platonism to be a very basic philosophical mistake.
Order may be different to reason; but the ability to reason depends, does it not, on the capacity to recognise order? We cannot really know which qualities of the universe exist independently of our minds, or whether mind emerges from order; the opposite could equally be true. What we do know if that we are in the universe, and the universe, in idealised form, is in us. Consciousness and reality are in that sense inseparable. If you are familiar with the work of the philosopher David Chalmers, among others, you will be aware of the concept of consciousness as being both fundamental and universal.
Yes, I am aware of Chalmer's views. I find them to be rather incoherent. For example, his concept of a philosophical zombie just seems dramatically wrong to me.
And as for purpose and direction, does the use of the word direction not imply the unseen hand of a director?
No. It implies time. Why would it imply a creator?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
:) Well, if as we were suggesting above, both of us in different wordings, if the 'supernatural' and the 'natural' are the same thing (e.g. if the supernatural is just natural things we don't yet understand, etc.)...then...that question is already answered.
Yes, it eliminates the need for a deity to explain the universe.
But on the other hand, it's also thought that we are alike to God in some way (of course that fits the above also), and therefore God has agency, and so, considering that, in that God is a being (has agency), then of course we could reasonably conjecture that we could not find/observe Him unless He allows it, and...
And why would we expect such a thing to be true?
well, if I were Him, I would not allow just all comers, myself, but rather only the people that met some reasonable standards of behavior, like respecting the dignity of all others (i.e. including one's imagined opponents or competitors, etc., etc., and the outcast groups, and etc., all people a-z), and so on with other aspects of treating people well...

Just like you or I would do with our own homes: we'd only let someone in that we find acceptable (not harmful) into our own house.

(.e.g. if someone is ranting and being obnoxious, he will have to stay outside, etc.)

So, it's logical from that we could not expect to ever know anything much about God except we met his standards of admission individually.
And yet, plenty of jerks manage to live in this house (the universe).
Among the various teachers about God, Jesus of Nazareth stands out for saying much about what God requires of us, and what is the way to find him, so logically one could not expect to learn anything about God except that they did the things Jesus specified, is my view, in that any neutral reader has to agree that the proactive Golden Rule and Love towards others, and so on He taught is very basic to what is best for peace/civilization.

Even for an atheist, that's the most plausible view I can think of in that way: why wouldn't God have standards, and why wouldn't he enforce them, and so on... Ergo, when Jesus taught that his teaching was the 'way', we could just take that as a potential path then to explore. It's kinda radical in some ways I can say, in that things like "love your neighbor as yourself" is of course life altering.

For most people it would mean radical change, even leaving their current life behind, in that if you love new people without choosing "as yourself" it can be begin sometimes some new life long relationships possibly, and those might alter one's future. It's like leaving one's old life behind in some ways.
I find almost nothing about this logical at all. Why assume a deity is like us at all? Why assume that the motivations we have about excluding undesirables is felt by an all-knowing, all-powerful being? Why would the 'standards' be about being able to see evidence of existence and not simply existing? And, if God is 'existence itself', why all these undesirables literally within himself?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
One correction of my previous post is the lack of evidence for the existence, but like a lot of the cutting edge of Physics, Cosmology, and Quantum Mechanics is beyond the scope of evidence we can see by any contemporary means of what we call evidence.

The conclusion based on the following remains that there is absolutely no evidence of a definable beginning of our universe or our physical existence., and it remains a possibility that our physical existence is eternal, infinite or simply in the nothingness of a Quantum existence.. We cannot conclude that our universe 'began as a singularity.

Does every black hole contain a singularity?​

Category: Space Published: September 13, 2013

black hole

Artistic rendering of a black hole. Public Domain Image, source: Christopher S. Baird.
In the real universe, no black holes contain singularities. In general, singularities are the non-physical mathematical result of a flawed physical theory. When scientists talk about black hole singularities, they are talking about the errors that appear in our current theories and not about objects that actually exist. When scientists and non-scientists talk about singularities as if they really exist, they are simply displaying their ignorance.

A singularity is a point in space where there is a mass with infinite density. This would lead to a spacetime with an infinite curvature. Singularities are predicted to exist in black holes by Einstein's theory of general relativity, which is a theory that has done remarkably well at matching experimental results. The problem is that infinities never exist in the real world. Whenever an infinity pops out of a theory, it is simply a sign that your theory is too simple to handle extreme cases.

For example, consider the simplest physical model that accurately describes how waves travel on a guitar string. If you drive such a string at its resonant frequency, the simplest model predicts that the vibration of the string will increase exponentially with time, even if you are driving it gently. The string actually does this... up to a point. The problem is that the exponential function quickly approaches infinity. The model therefore predicts that a guitar string driven at its resonant frequency will, in time, vibrate passed the moon, passed the stars, out to infinity, and then back. Does the string actually vibrate infinitely just because the model says so? Of course not. The string snaps long before vibrating out to the moon. The appearance of the infinity in the model therefore indicates that the model has reached its limitations. The simple model of waves on a string is correct as long as the vibrations are small. To avoid the infinity in the equations, you need to build a better theory. For vibrating guitar strings, all you have to do is add to the model a description of when guitar strings snap.

As another example, consider a thin glass drinking goblet. If a singer sings a note at the right pitch, the goblet begins to shake more and more. The simplest model would predict that, in time, the goblet will be shaking infinitely. In real life, this does not happen. Instead, the singing causes the goblet to shatter to pieces when the shaking becomes too violent.

Every scientific theory has its limitations. Within its realm of validity, a good theory matches experimental results very well. But go beyond the limitations of a theory, and it starts giving predictions that are inaccurate or even just nonsense. Physicists hope to one day develop a theory of everything that has no limitations and is accurate in all situations. But we do not have that yet. Currently, the best physics theories are quantum field theory and Einstein's general relativity. Quantum field theory very accurately describes the physics from the size of humans down to the smallest particle. At the same time, quantum field theory fails on the planetary and astronomical scales, and, in fact, says nothing at all about gravity. In contrast, general relativity accurately predicts gravitational effects and other effects on the astronomical scale, but says nothing about atoms, electromagnetism, or anything on the small scale. Using general relativity to predict an electron's orbit around an atomic nucleus will give you embarrassingly bad results, and using quantum field theory to predict earth's orbit around the sun will likewise give you bad results. But as long as scientists and engineers use the right theory in the right setting, they mostly get the right answers in their research, calculations, and predictions.

The good thing is that general relativity does not overlap much with quantum field theory. For most astronomical-scale and gravitational calculations, you can get away with using just general relativity and ignoring quantum field theory. Similarly, for small-scale and electromagnetic calculations you can get away with using quantum field theory and ignoring general relativity. For example, you use just quantum field theory to describe what the atoms in the sun are doing, but use just general relativity to describe what the sun is doing as a whole. Many efforts are underway to consistently unite quantum field theory and general relativity into one complete theory, but none of these efforts have been fully solidified or confirmed by experiments. Until a successful theory of everything comes along, physicists can mostly get by with using both general relativity and relativistic quantum theory in a patchwork manner. This approach mostly works because the realms of validity of both theories do not overlap much. But this approach breaks down when you have an astronomical object collapsed down to quantum sizes, which is exactly what a black hole is.

A black hole forms when a massive star runs out of the fuel needed to balance out gravity, and collapses under its own gravity to a very small size. General relativity predicts that the star collapses to an infinitely small point with infinite density. But, as should now be clear, such a beast does not really exist in the real world. The appearance of a black hole singularity in general relativity simply indicates that general relativity is inaccurate at very small sizes, which we already knew. You need quantum field theory to describe objects of small sizes. But, quantum field theory does not include gravitational effects, which is the main feature of a black hole. This fact means that we will not known exactly what is going on in a black hole until scientists can successfully create a new theory that accurately describes small sizes and strong gravitational effects at the same time. Whatever the new theory ends up telling us, it will most certainly not say that there are singularities in black holes. If it did, that outcome would simply indicate that the new theory is just as bad as the old theory. In fact, one of the requirements for the future theory of everything is that it not predict singularities in black holes. In this sense, the interiors of black holes are the final frontier for theoretical physics. Just about everything else in the universe can be accurately described (at least in principle) using our current theories.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, well, assuming the opposite seems...less plausible, actually, and you'll be laughing when you see it (it's just something you already know since long ago no doubt) -- if we are made of matter and have consciousness, then it follows of course that matter elsewhere could have consciousness.
Yes, I am sure that life and consciousness are possible in other places in the universe. But that doesn't answer the questions: life itself would be impossible in the very early universe. So, prior to the first generation of stars, there would be no life, no consciousness, no intent, etc.
One thing that seems odd to me is the idea that only Earth has intelligent life on it (and of course I don't expect that's your view). It strikes me as a very odd thing to expect, unless....well, the highest probability way to accomplish that only Earth would have life (and nowhere else!) would seem to be having a 'creator'/initiator ;-0 (but the idea that only Earth has life is not my own view: my own view is that life is likely to be very commonplace across the Universe, but usually (as in 99.999...something % of the time) it gets destroyed in less than a billion years by natural phenomena like asteroid impacts, intense stellar flares, CMEs, orbital migration, nearby supernovae, or even just a biochemical dead end, volcanism, and on and on. I think what would be fantastically more rare is a planet that remains safe for life like we know it for billions of years (billions plural). So, I'd consider it plausible for example if we turned out to be the only planet in this galaxy with civilization having language/technology advancement (or not, it could plausibly go either way). And next any advanced technology civilization has to manage not to destroy itself. But, just like (well, not precisely like) Larry Niven's fun science fiction where the Pak Protectors watch over their charges protectively, we may well have an overwatch that protect us... (it's a fun bit Niven invented in the details Pak Protector - Wikipedia) Of course, I expect quite a lot more of God than that version, lol :)
I'm more inclined to say that bacterial life is probably pretty common. Multi-cellular life is probably significantly less common. Self-consciousness is probably much less common than that. And technology at the level of radio waves or higher is probably very rare. Given that we have only been at that level for a century or so, I find it *way* too early to judge that we won't destroy ourselves in short order.

As for being 'safe for life' for billions of years, remember that Earth was primarily anaerobic for the first couple of billion years and multicellular life seems to have developed quickly once conditions allowed for it (through a build up of oxygen in the atmosphere and resistance to said oxygen in the metabolism). Before that, it was 'safe' for life that was single celled with a simple metabolism. Most life we are familiar with today (including us) would have died quickly.

The actual time for multi-cellular life is right around a single billion years and anything as complex as a vertebrate less than half or even a third of that.

But no, I don't see it as reasonable that there is a 'watcher' that makes sure things go well for us. Given the
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Why assume a deity is like us at all
Ah, according to the common bible, God made like himself (though of course while He is at least billions of years old (or much more perhaps), we are merely like 30 or 50 or 70 and such, relatively more like a toddler (at most).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ah, well, assuming the opposite seems...less plausible, actually, and you'll be laughing when you see it (it's just something you already know since long ago no doubt) -- if we are made of matter and have consciousness, then it follows of course that matter elsewhere could have consciousness.

True in vastness of our universe, but chances of something nearby in time and space is unbelievably small
One thing that seems odd to me is the idea that only Earth has intelligent life on it (and of course I don't expect that's your view). It strikes me as a very odd thing to expect, unless....well, the highest probability way to accomplish that only Earth would have life (and nowhere else!) would seem to be having a 'creator'/initiator ;-0 (but the idea that only Earth has life is not my own view: my own view is that life is likely to be very commonplace across the Universe, but usually (as in 99.999...something % of the time) it gets destroyed in less than a billion years by natural phenomena like asteroid impacts, intense stellar flares, CMEs, orbital migration, nearby supernovae, or even just a biochemical dead end, volcanism, and on and on. I think what would be fantastically more rare is a planet that remains safe for life like we know it for billions of years (billions plural). So, I'd consider it plausible for example if we turned out to be the only planet in this galaxy with civilization having language/technology advancement (or not, it could plausibly go either way). And next any advanced technology civilization has to manage not to destroy itself. But, just like (well, not precisely like) Larry Niven's fun science fiction where the Pak Protectors watch over their charges protectively, we may well have an overwatch that protect us... (it's a fun bit Niven invented in the details Pak Protector - Wikipedia) Of course, I expect quite a lot more of God than that version, lol :)
Considering the vastness of our universe in time and space it would be unlikely we would know about them. the age of universe it likely that planets like ours are long gone or not inhabited yet. es, the odds may not be high for planets with intelligent life to exist it is still more likely we would not ever know about them. It is possible, nut unlikely;
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, according to the common bible, God made like himself (though of course while He is at least billions of years old (or much more perhaps), we are merely like 30 or 50 or 70 and such, relatively more like a toddler (at most).

And again, why trust the writings of those 2000 years ago or more that simply didn't know much about the universe?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
my own view is that life is likely to be very commonplace across the Universe, but usually (as in 99.999...something % of the time) it gets destroyed in less than a billion years by natural phenomena like asteroid impacts, intense stellar flares, CMEs, orbital migration, nearby supernovae, or even just a biochemical dead end, volcanism, and on and on.
Considering all of those happened on Earth, it may not be so easy to destroy life once it got going.
I think what would be fantastically more rare is a planet that remains safe for life like we know it for billions of years (billions plural).
That I don't see as being so unlikely. I see it as more unlikely that a technological race will fail to destroy itself within a thousand years or so of developing nukes.
So, I'd consider it plausible for example if we turned out to be the only planet in this galaxy with civilization having language/technology advancement (or not, it could plausibly go either way).
I see this as likely as well, but mostly because the chance of *overlap* of two such civilizations in time is so low.
And next any advanced technology civilization has to manage not to destroy itself. But, just like (well, not precisely like) Larry Niven's fun science fiction where the Pak Protectors watch over their charges protectively, we may well have an overwatch that protect us... (it's a fun bit Niven invented in the details Pak Protector - Wikipedia) Of course, I expect quite a lot more of God than that version, lol :)
I think it dangerous to assume such. I think we are on our own and should expect to be on our own. That means we need to learn to protect ourselves.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It is potentially an object if it existed. singularities are predicted to exist in blackholes.

This is the problem with statements previously asserted like 'the universe had a beginning.' The is no objective verifiable evidence that our universe had a beginning. Our universe and/or our physical existence is possibly infinite, and depending on how you view time possibly eternal..
I do not know. It could even be 'absolute nothing'. :D
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What fantastic claim? That my religion says that God is the Creator? I answered the OP's question. I have nothing to prove to you, just as you don't have evidence of your atheistic universe that can convince me otherwise.
No. That God exists. I do believe your religion says God is the creator.

Of course I have no evidence for an atheistic universe. An atheistic universe is the default conclusion, it's logically assumed, pending contrary evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, the BB singularity is NOT like a BH. They are very distinct types of singularity. A BH, for example, is static in the basic form, while the BB singularity is inherently dynamic. In a BH, time can be defined everywhere; in the BB one characteristic is that time cannot be extended to 'before'.

Maybe if you actually took the time to learn the math and read about the theory, you would not say things that are so false?

Yeah, you are doing the magical trick of doing definitions and treating them like facts.
The problem of a definition is that we can do cognitive gymnastics in our brains about those, but that doesn't turn the definition into a fact.finition
If that was the case, there would be a God. It is simple; the definition of God is the creator of the universe would mean that it is a fact, that God is the creator of the universe.
Now if you define time as X, it doesn't mean that it is a fact. It means you have defined as X and as long as you can't observe X, X is not a fact.
 
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