Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[halbhh]

I am not a votary of cyclic universe. Science has guesses but no confirmation beyond 'inflation'. I stop at what science says.
As far aqs my thinking goes, the universe has to have a reason, whether it began at any time or is eternal.

Interesting. That's one reason some think of a more advanced intelligence out there -- some thinking life and the Universe must exist for a reason.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's one reason some think of a more advanced intelligence out there -- some thinking life and the Universe must exist for a reason.

Thinking does not change facts. Where is the evidence? Sure, at the moment, all we have for a beginning are four forces and gravity.

 

[halbhh]

Thinking does not change facts. Where is the evidence? Sure, at the moment, all we have for a beginning are four forces and gravity.

Precisely my own attitude. Sure, we can summarize a lot of detail on current theories, but in the end, it's about evidence.
That's a main part of why I was pointing out how pragmatically useful and indispensable testability is for a theory (via Karl Popper) -- it helps to allow us to make progress just in a practical way, but also it helps us to begin to have more of a grasp on what Nature is like when a given theory has successfully passed several or even many dozens of critical observational tests. (we can know that for instance General Relativity is at least a good approximation that holds in a quite a range of domain, such as seemingly everywhere outside of a black hole for example; and GR is immediately useful for example in GPS accuracy for navigation).

 

[Unfettered]

I have a genuine question for theists and it is not meant to be a trick in any way. There are many things that I would expect to see in a universe containing a benevolent, omnipotent, personal god that I don't see in this universe, which leads me to conclude that such a god is unlikely to exist. I'm curious as to what theists would expect to see in a godless universe, and how a godless universe would differ from one in which a god existed. What would you expect this universe to look like if no gods existed, and how would that be different from the current universe?

I understand that a godless universe would look like "unorganized matter."

 

[Polymath257]

I understand that a godless universe would look like "unorganized matter."

Why would that be the case? Would not matter still be composed of protons, neutrons and electrons? And would those not still have properties? So, the electrons and protons would attract each other, the protons and neutrons would *spontaneously* form nuclei, and so we would have atoms.

Of course, in the *very* early universe, we do have such: free electrons, neutrons, etc because of the incredibly high temperatures. When things cooled down due to the expansion, atoms formed. Upon further cooling, those atoms started clumping together and eventually stars formed.

Why does any of this require a deity? As long as matter has properties, structure will naturally form. Matter organizes itself.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Why would that be the case? Would not matter still be composed of protons, neutrons and electrons? And would those not still have properties? So, the electrons and protons would attract each other, the protons and neutrons would *spontaneously* form nuclei, and so we would have atoms.

Of course, in the *very* early universe, we do have such: free electrons, neutrons, etc because of the incredibly high temperatures. When things cooled down due to the expansion, atoms formed. Upon further cooling, those atoms started clumping together and eventually stars formed.

Why does any of this require a deity? As long as matter has properties, structure will naturally form. Matter organizes itself.

It seems to me axiomatic, that none of those things would exist without some purpose, some agency if you like. Of course, axioms are extremely difficult to justify independently of the paradigm they underpin. So that's a problem for the believer in some underlying purpose, trying to convince the non believer of his worldview. But it seems absurd, that there could be mass and energy, time and space, strong and weak forces, re-ionisation, fusion, gravity, dark energy, any of that, without some guiding principle behind it all. And it's that mysterious principle that some of us choose to call God. That much, as I say, seems axiomatic. It's the conviction that this underlying principle is concerned with the welfare of it's creation, that requires an act of faith. But to believe that the universe is a manifestation of some power worthy of the sobriquet Divine, just seems like common sense.

 

[Polymath257]

It seems to me axiomatic, that none of those things would exist without some purpose, some agency if you like. Of course, axioms are extremely difficult to justify independently of the paradigm they underpin. So that's a problem for the believer in some underlying purpose, trying to convince the non believer of his worldview. But it seems absurd, that there could be mass and energy, time and space, strong and weak forces, re-ionisation, fusion, gravity, dark energy, any of that, without some guiding principle behind it all. And it's that mysterious principle that some of us choose to call God. That much, as I say, seems axiomatic. It's the conviction that this underlying principle is concerned with the welfare of it's creation, that requires an act of faith. But to believe that the universe is a manifestation of some power worthy of the sobriquet Divine, just seems like common sense.

That 'organizing principle' is, as I see it, the simple fact that things have properties and that means there are natural laws. The natural laws *are* the 'guiding principles'.

But that doesn't imply agency or consciousness. So calling it 'God' is not, in my mind, appropriate.

 

[shunyadragon]

I understand that a godless universe would look like "unorganized matter."

By objectively verifiable evidence, our universe is determined and organized by the Laws of Nature and natural processes. There is absolutely no evidence that God organized the universe, It is more problematic if you believe God did it literally did it as described in Genesis.

If you believe God Created Natural Laws and natural processes and our physical existence is the result this is a reasonable rational approach but not based on the evidence, and still no evidence of God or Gods, nor any 'Organized Principle' beyond natural chains of the outcome of cause and effect events observed by science.

 

[shunyadragon]

It seems to me axiomatic, that none of those things would exist without some purpose, some agency if you like. Of course, axioms are extremely difficult to justify independently of the paradigm they underpin. So that's a problem for the believer in some underlying purpose, trying to convince the non believer of his worldview. But it seems absurd, that there could be mass and energy, time and space, strong and weak forces, re-ionisation, fusion, gravity, dark energy, any of that, without some guiding principle behind it all. And it's that mysterious principle that some of us choose to call God. That much, as I say, seems axiomatic. It's the conviction that this underlying principle is concerned with the welfare of it's creation, that requires an act of faith. But to believe that the universe is a manifestation of some power worthy of the sobriquet Divine, just seems like common sense.

I believe in a 'Source' some call God(s), but the above bold requires assumptions of circular reasoning to justify one's belief. The simple observed facts that Natural Laws and natural processes adequately explain the origins and nature of our physical existence To be honest, beyond this it is speculation.

 

[Quintessence]

That 'organizing principle' is, as I see it, the simple fact that things have properties and that means there are natural laws. The natural laws *are* the 'guiding principles'.

But that doesn't imply agency or consciousness. So calling it 'God' is not, in my mind, appropriate.

"God" need not imply agency or consciousness (especially in the limited fashion humans understand such things) either. That's particular to some types of theism and not others. Just figured I'd remind since this is the Theism Subforum after all

 

[Unfettered]

Why would that be the case? Would not matter still be composed of protons, neutrons and electrons? And would those not still have properties? So, the electrons and protons would attract each other, the protons and neutrons would *spontaneously* form nuclei, and so we would have atoms.

Of course, in the *very* early universe, we do have such: free electrons, neutrons, etc because of the incredibly high temperatures. When things cooled down due to the expansion, atoms formed. Upon further cooling, those atoms started clumping together and eventually stars formed.

Why does any of this require a deity? As long as matter has properties, structure will naturally form. Matter organizes itself.

I shared my understanding. I understand that God took unorganized matter and organized it. So a godless universe would be in an unorganized state.

I do not presume to know or understand exactly what "unorganized" means as it pertains to your question, though it seems most likely to me that it means the properties of matter to which you refer were not yet in place. IE, it was in an absolutely unorganized state. I do not know, though.

 

[Valjean]

I understand that a godless universe would look like "unorganized matter."

Isn't matter already organized energy? Wouldn't the laws and constants created in the BB create the organization we see in the universe today?
Why would there be a need for a conscious, intentional uncreated personage organizing things -- ostensibly by magic?

 

[Unfettered]

By objectively verifiable evidence, our universe is determined and organized by the Laws of Nature and natural processes. There is absolutely no evidence that God organized the universe, It is more problematic if you believe God did it literally did it as described in Genesis.

This was not the question I answered.

If you believe God Created Natural Laws and natural processes and our physical existence is the result this is a reasonable rational approach

This is harmonious with what I described.

but not based on the evidence, and still no evidence of God or Gods, nor any 'Organized Principle' beyond natural chains of the outcome of cause and effect events observed by science.

The question was not about evidence, but about what, to me, a godless universe would look like.

 

[Unfettered]

Isn't matter already organized energy? Wouldn't the laws and constants created in the BB create the organization we see in the universe today?
Why would there be a need for a conscious, intentional uncreated personage organizing things -- ostensibly by magic?

Post # 411 answers part of this.

On your second question, I understand that organization comes from an organizer. Your description of the organizer as a conscious, intentional, uncreated personage is not my contribution; that doesn't harmonize with my understanding of God.

Nor does magic factor into it, unless you're using the term loosely to refer to an actual power of organization not understood by man through scientific means.

 

[Valjean]

Post # 411 answers part of this.

On your second question, I understand that organization comes from an organizer. Your description of the organizer as a conscious, intentional, uncreated personage is not my contribution; that doesn't harmonize with my understanding of God.

Nor does magic factor into it, unless you're using the term loosely to refer to an actual power of organization not understood by man through scientific means.

I see no need for a conscious organizer.
I can dump a thousand golf balls into a bathtub and they would spontaneously organize themselves into a perfectly symmetrical pattern. no organizer needed. The Mandelbrot set in mathematics can generate infinite order. A drop of water dropped in a vacuum will form a perfect sphere. The laws of physics make predictable, automatic reactions between atoms possible. The automatic mechanisms of biological evolution generated the myriad species we see today. No conscious organizer needed, just a set of laws and constants.

I'm using "magic" as effect without mechanism. It's usually the only "explanation" proffered by the proponents of religion or God.

 

[Unfettered]

I see no need for a conscious organizer.

Good to know.

I can dump a thousand golf balls into a bathtub and they would spontaneously organize themselves into a perfectly symmetrical pattern. no organizer needed. The Mandelbrot set in mathematics can generate infinite order. A drop of water dropped in a vacuum will form a perfect sphere. The laws of physics make predictable, automatic reactions between atoms possible. The automatic mechanisms of biological evolution generated the myriad species we see today. No conscious organizer needed, just a set of laws and constants.

Understood. My answer to the OP addresses the origin of the laws to which you refer.

I'm using "magic" as effect without mechanism. It's usually the only "explanation" proffered by the proponents of religion or God.

I don't believe in the idea of "effect without mechanism," so I don't believe you're referring to anything I believe.

 

[Valjean]

Good to know.
Understood. My answer to the OP addresses the origin of the laws to which you refer.

Sorry. 400 posts. Could you give me a post number so I could read your reply?

I don't believe in the idea of "effect without mechanism," so I don't believe you're referring to anything I believe.

Well, effect with mechanism would put the question into the realm of science, not religion. It would remove God from the equation, would it not?

God is usually conceived of as an invisible, magical personage, creating things "by His word" and breathing life into things. These aren't mechanisms, they're assertions of magic.

 

[Valjean]

I shared my understanding. I understand that God took organized matter and organized it. So a godless universe would be in an unorganized state.

I do not presume to know or understand exactly what "unorganized" means as it pertains to your question, though it seems most likely to me that it means the properties of matter to which you refer were not yet in place. IE, it was in an absolutely unorganized state. I do not know, though.

OK. Found the post you referred to.

God organized organized matter? Typo? When I think of unorganized matter I think plasma.
But you still posits a God; a conscious, willful personage.

Didn't the "properties of matter" and natural laws fall into place within minutes/hours of the Big Bang?

 

[Unfettered]

OK. Found the post you referred to.

God organized organized matter? Typo? When I think of unorganized matter I think plasma.
But you still posits a God; a conscious, willful personage.

Didn't the "properties of matter" and natural laws fall into place within minutes/hours of the Big Bang?

Thanks for pointing out the typo. You are correct in that I intended to write "unorganized," not "organized" twice.

What I posited did not treat the subject of the nature of god, just the absence of god as the organizing agent (general term) of the known universe.

Nor does what I said assume any particular scientific theory, such as the big bang. It asserts that the universe, without god, would look like unorganized matter.

 

[shunyadragon]

This was not the question I answered.
This is harmonious with what I described.
The question was not about evidence, but about what, to me, a godless universe would look like.

Both are an issue here. You stated: "I understand that a godless universe would look like "unorganized matter."

The problem is based on the facts the universe is as it is regardless of whether God exists or not. That is what I explained.