The whole God and Evil thing with God.

[viole]

A relationship with him is not determined by what I answer to political questions.

Political? What is political in asking Him whether Hell is infinite torture or not? Or how He rates the morality of capital punishement? Why do you guys still debate about these things when you have periodical close encounters with the Almighty?

My impression is that you speak only about the weather. And I am not even sure of that, considering that some Christians believe in global warming and others don't.

So, what do you talk about during those personal relationships?

You brought up the topic of me being scared, and you're starting to sound pretty childish so...

You said " and that does not scare me". What exactly does not scare you?

Well you obviously aren't in a relationship with him so how would you know whether he needs glory?

So, finally we found out what you talk about with Him. His need of glory or lack thereof. Correct?

You just got done saying he's in need of glory, which is a weak description of him.

So, since you seem to know that, on account of having those personal relationships: does He need it or not?

Oh but he was. You can get rid of the religion but you cannot get rid of God.

Cool. For a moment I thought He needed someone to glorify Him. Otherwise, He would have a psychological pathology involving low self esteem, don't you think so?

Would you say that you are a friend of God or an enemy of him?

Would you say that you are a friend of Mother Goose or an enemy of her?

Your answer, is my answer.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Akivah]

Whether or not he programed the good is pretty irrelevant to the whole problem of evil now isn't it? The issue here being evil is unwarranted to the extreme.

Why do you think evil is unwarranted?

If god is all powerful and all knowing then he becomes responsible for all actions because he could choose to change them and direct them in anyway. If you say humans have a predication for evil then god put it there without reason.

G-d consistently told us, that the choice is OURS. G-d knowing what we are going to do has nothing to do with what we actually do. No more than me trying to stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan (Star Wars). I know what he's going to do and I don't stop him. That doesn't make me responsible for Tarkin's actions.

How can god be disappointed if he is all knowing? By definition he couldn't unless he is in fact not all knowing.

It's always clumsy using human emotions to describe G-d, but there all I've got to work with. He knows what we're going to do, but is disappointed with our bad choices. Foreknowledge doesn't preclude feelings about a result.

It is not simply knowing the creations choice. It is allowing that to happen when he could intervene and prevent unnecessary suffering easily.

It is impossible for humans to know the full scope of eternity, we're not privy to the big picture. I choose to believe that G-d avoided something worse. We can't see it, but I choose to believe that He always acts in our best interests.

I'm saying that if God is all knowing, and all powerful then any and all suffering becomes his fault because he allows all the points to converge. He is responsible for letting all the events that lead up to the evil deed to transpire unabated. He has in essence caused all suffering trough inaction if that is that case.

G-d never promised that we wouldn't suffer. So you're blaming G-d for things never said. It's almost like you're mad at G-d for Creating Life. Life is short and then we die. I prefer the brief opportunity for life and all that it entails.

 

[idea]

It's rational to believe humans are the only life in the universe until demonstrated otherwise.

you're not a fan of playing probability games?

 

[neologist]

Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

.....

What do you think?

God is omnipotent.
But God has a place and therefore is not omnipresent.
And God has no more necessity to know our moral choices than you or I have to read the last page of the whodunit. Therefore, He is not omniscient by the most customary use of the word.
You really should pay more attention to what the Bible actually says.

 

[neologist]

So, why did He not create beings that cannot change? . . .

You mean puppets?

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

God is omnipotent.
But God has a place and therefore is not omnipresent.
And God has no more necessity to know our moral choices than you or I have to read the last page of the whodunit. Therefore, He is not omniscient by the most customary use of the word.
You really should pay more attention to what the Bible actually says.

This really isn't towards the bible in particular, I have no more reason to seriously consider that book than I do any other mythology.

 

[shmogie]

Whenever I've tried to think about God as all loving or just a God guy/gal I find it rather difficult. The biggest problem with someone being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is that it makes it impossible for said being to escape blame for literally everything.

Any wrong doing was allowed by God to happen but not only that, it was more or less programed to happen. If God is the creator of man then he has more or less programed every negative aspect of ourselves into our heads. The inclination towards violence and tribalism? You can thank God for that. The sexual urges of pedophiles and rapists? You can thank God for that. Hatred? The list goes on and on.

The concept of sin is more or less God getting upset with you for things he set you up to do. It's a little ridiculous honestly. This is also part of the reason I was leaning towards pagan, at least with polytheism you don't have to constantly engage in apologetics for God's schizo behavior.

What do you think?

You are making assumptions that are untrue. God is not omniscient, he cannot see what hasn't happened. If he was, then we all are playing out a script he has already seen and hasn't changed, This is nonsense. God either by choice or design does not know what what will happen, thus preserving free will. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, God is not responsible for anything that happens, unless he uses his omnipotence to specifically bring it about. He did not know what the created beings would do, but he was perfectly prepared for every possibility.

 

[neologist]

How can something perfect deviate from perfection?
....

Have you ever heard of the term "free will"?

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

You are making assumptions that are untrue. God is not omniscient, he cannot see what hasn't happened. If he was, then we all are playing out a script he has already seen and hasn't changed, This is nonsense. God either by choice or design does not know what what will happen, thus preserving free will. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, God is not responsible for anything that happens, unless he uses his omnipotence to specifically bring it about. He did not know what the created beings would do, but he was perfectly prepared for every possibility.

This is often the description I have heard from various religious people. I cannot make assumptions that are untrue about something that doesn't exist. If you believe he does exist and would like to produce arguments in favor of a god or gods existing I would certainly love to hear them. AS for the time being I cannot seriously consider a being I don't believe in seriously.

 

[shmogie]

How can something perfect deviate from perfection?

Since I can think of something that outperforms it, namely something perfect that does not deviate from perfection, we can conclude that what God did was not perfect to start with. But how can then a perfect being create not perfect things? Again, I can think of a perfect being that outperforms Him.

Funny how some Theists (not necessarily you) believe the ontological argument is compelling, while not realizing that it undermines everything they believe in.

Ciao

- viole

God never deviated from perfection, his creation chose to do so.

 

[neologist]

This really isn't towards the bible in particular, I have no more reason to seriously consider that book than I do any other mythology.

Sorry to hear that.
.
.
.
So you've never read any of it?

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Have you ever heard of the term "free will"?

Neologist, not to be rude but I've heard about 100 arguments for or against god being evil if he did infact exist. So lets cut to the chase. Can you provide me a good reason / argument to believe in god in the first place? Can you then provide an argument to demonstrate why god is or is not evil? Just make it one long post so we can at least have a place to start and we aren't constantly jumping from comment to comment as you read through this list.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Sorry to hear that.
.
.
.
So you've never read any of it?

I've read the bible , I've read through various translations ( at first as a muslim looking to disprove it and later as someone just interested in what it says) it is not unfamiliar to me.

 

[shmogie]

This is often the description I have heard from various religious people. I cannot make assumptions that are untrue about something that doesn't exist. If you believe he does exist and would like to produce arguments in favor of a god or gods existing I would certainly love to hear them. AS for the time being I cannot seriously consider a being I don't believe in seriously.

Then why in the world did you post what you did ? You are blaming a God that doesn't exist for thing a non existent God could not do. Just state you don't believe in God and leave it at that, don't go around the maypole making statements about something you don't believe in, that's a little psychotic.

 

[shmogie]

This is often the description I have heard from various religious people. I cannot make assumptions that are untrue about something that doesn't exist. If you believe he does exist and would like to produce arguments in favor of a god or gods existing I would certainly love to hear them. AS for the time being I cannot seriously consider a being I don't believe in seriously.

Prove he doesn't exist, that is what you believe you must be able to prove it.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Then why in the world did you post what you did ? You are blaming a God that doesn't exist for thing a non existent God could not do. Just state you don't believe in God and leave it at that, don't go around the maypole making statements about something you don't believe in, that's a little psychotic.

I still think it's interesting to note that a god of love is still such a dick. I kind of look at it like a work of fiction. Why not make the post then? It's like criticizing a story. and You still didn't make a single argument.

 

[neologist]

This is often the description I have heard from various religious people. ....

Yet you base your OP on their incorrect hypotheses without subjecting them to rational consideration.

Good work.

 

[shmogie]

I've read the bible , I've read through various translations ( at first as a muslim looking to disprove it and later as someone just interested in what it says) it is not unfamiliar to me.

LOL, a moslem, allah wills it. You are projecting prior beliefs onto a theological system, and God, you don't understand. I don't believe in allah either

 

[shmogie]

I still think it's interesting to note that a god of love is still such a dick. I kind of look at it like a work of fiction. Why not make the post then? It's like criticizing a story. and You still didn't make a single argument.

I made a significant argument, you apparentky are incapable of grasping it. Are you just trolling ?

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

LOL, a moslem, allah wills it. You are projecting prior beliefs onto a theological system, and God, you don't understand. I don't believe in allah either

Prove he doesn't exist, that is what you believe you must be able to prove it.

Well that isn't exactly true. Believe me when I say I can separate the two.

I made a significant argument, you apparentky are incapable of grasping it. Are you just trolling ?

wait wait where was the argument? I think I must of missed something. Can you quote it please?