The War on Christmas

[sojourner]

Sojourner ~ The people who run the schools are doing this because the local and state laws indicate they have to keep a nutral stand and i'm sure they would like to say something different but might get fired. If you have a good paying job now days you toe the line.:cold:

That was the same situation behind the Iron curtain and in Nazi Germany, too...

 

[sojourner]

The bottom line is Not whether Christmas is fun or not, but is it religious truth?

Of course it is. Celebrating the Incarnation is eminent religious truth.

If something is based on a lie or a man-made religious custom or tradition outside of Scripture, adding on to Scripture, then that ones form of worship is in vain or worthless according to Jesus.

Jesus was born. (Matt. 1, Lk. 2, Jn. 1) It's in the Bible.

How did Jesus apostles celebrate Jesus birthday?

I'm not sure that 1st-century Palestinians celebrated the birthdays of non-royalty.

 

[blackout]

Is it Christmas? Is it a break? It's "Christmas Break." That's what it was years ago, when the whole school-taking-a-break thing started. They broke for Christmas. Secular businesses don't close for "the holidays." But they do close ... guess when? ... Christmas. Look on any calendar. It doesn't say, "Winter Solstice Celebration, "The Holidays," or even "Festivus." But it does indicate that Christmas falls on December 25. It's a cultural norm.

Do you know that, for most of my formative years (and I went to several schools in several states), the semester broke after the new year? This wasn't "semester break." And we didn't break due to winter (unless there was ice on the roads). We broke because it was ... guess again. That's right! ... Christmas!

christmas lasts only one day.
(according to "the" calander)

every day of the winter break is winter.



Your kids need to get back to school early.

 

[sojourner]

The break is due to winter, and that's why Christmas is celebrated at this time. Government is honest by recognizing the fact that everyone needs a break and not everyone celebrates Christmas. If some are peeved because not everyone celebrates Christmas the same way then that's too bad for them.

No, it isn't. The break has always been due to Christmas. If it were due to winter, the break would last a quarter of the calendar year. If some don't celebrate Christmas, then that's too bad for them!

 

[andys]

Metalic Wings rants,
" [Andys,] If you really want to rant about pagan holidays and how Christianity stole them, fine. Just go make your own thread."

I guess you haven't noticed, but practically everybody on this thread has been discussing exactly what I discussed. I'll bring your metallic wings up to speed:

SHADOW WOLF: "It is absurd to expect everyone to celebrate Christmas."
MSizer: "I don't care if I don't accept the divinity of Jesus, I'm celebrating christmas however I want, jesus or no jesus, it's my time and my family."

Beaudreaux: "Well, I'm a big fat atheist and I LOVE Christmas! I think it's pretty clear that the majority of people who celelbrate Christmas aren't doing so because they're happy Jesus was born."

Hunanistheart: "Is there any reason christmas shouldn't be banned altogether? If so, I don't see it."

Baydwin: "How is saying Happy Holidays any different to saying Merry Christmas? I mean holiday is just Holy Day, and it started off as a Catholic mass..."

Atotalstranger: "...people who think they're under attack when someone wishes them a "happy holiday," just might be missing the point of Christmas."

Humanistheart: "The point of christmas being what, to you?"

Storm: "What justification is there for banning it in the first place? "

Humanistheart: "...keeping christian religious celebrations out of goverment run instituations..."

UltraViolet: "Does Xmas have a point... really?"

Sojourner: "...in America, the state has no jurisdiction over religious observances."

Metalic Wings: "As for the pagan tradition, I don't know too much."

Sojourner: "...most of those who would rather wish "happy holidays" are intentionally taking the holy out of the equation, so it really doesn't mean what it's intended to mean in this case."

Metalic Wings: "Would you condemn people who say "Happy birthday!" to you on your birthday? Even if you don't believe in Jesus, or Christianity, they're Just. Being. Nice."

Metalic Wings: "The biggest thing the gov's done is change "CHristmas Break" to "Winter Break" so that everyone can view it as a celebration."

Sojourner: [Does Christmas have a point?] "It does, at least to Christians."

Sojourner: "The reason it's not important to most atheists, is because Xmas doesn't have any deeper meaning for them other than nostalgia. It's different for the Christian. It's a pretty touchy subject, because the celebration marks one of the most important events in their religion: the Incarnation."

Amill: "...you shouldn't really care if you're not Christian and someone tells you Merry Christmas."

Soujourner: "the reason [schools are] taking a break is not due to winter, it's due to Christmas. Why not be honest and call it "Christmas break?"

URAVIO2ME: "The bottom line is Not whether Christmas is fun or not, but is it religious truth?"

Dogsgod: "If some are peeved because not everyone celebrates Christmas the same way then that's too bad for them."

Mr Sprinkles: "...why can't atheists celebrate their Christian heritage?" [Whew, talk about the tail wagging the dog! -Andys]

(By the way, while I'm correcting you, the correct spelling is "metallic" not "metalic".)

 

[sojourner]

Basically, you like the myths and traditions without the literalism. I concur.

Thoreau wrote about what Xy should be like. he said, "I wanted to live deeply and suck all the marrow of life." "Surface" Xy is not a very good way to obtain that "abundant life" that Jesus talked about. There's no nutrition in simply skimming the surface. Only small bites.

 

[sojourner]

I agree with this. We need to develop a secular Christianity the same way we have secular Judaism. If atheists can celebrate their Jewish heritage why can't atheists celebrate their Christian heritage? I'm in.

Christianity is (or should be) already secular. Xy goes way beyond the church doors and the worship. Liturgy encompasses all of life. Christmas has always been open for all to celebrate -- Xians and atheists alike. Go ahead and celebrate, if you like. We don't care. The more the merrier. But "secular Xy" is an oxymoron. There just can be no such thing.

BTW, who's "we?" Christians like Xy the way it is. Why do "we" need to develop Xy to be something less than it already is?

 

[andys]

UltraViolet,
You ask, "Does xmas have a point... really?"

I provide the answer, in some detail for you.

And your direct reply to me is: "Forget it dude. who cares."

Why don't you go swap recipes on some other post?

 

[blackout]

UltraViolet,
You post: "does xmas have a point... really?"

I provide the answer, in some detail for you.

And your reply to me is: "Forget it dude. who cares."

Why don't you go swap recipes on some other post?

lololol!

And a Very merry happy holy holi channucy chriXtmassy kwaziYule tide winter trampOwonder land to you!

ahhhh. are we all warm and fuzzy yet?

 

[sojourner]

Yikes! Questions like this drive me nuts:

"How did Jesus['] apostles celebrate Jesus['] birthday?"

ANSWER:
They didn't! The apostles and early true Church never celebrated Christ's birthday at any time. There is no command or instruction to celebrate it in the Bible—rather, the celebrating of birthdays is a pagan, not a Christian custom.

According to the Church, itself, the celebration of a birthday is a pagan act:
In the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 edition, under the heading "Natal Day," we find that the early Catholic father, Origen, acknowledged this truth: "In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world"

What ... as opposed to the "later, fake Church?" They didn't celebrate because, culturally, 1st-century Palestinians didn't celebrate the birthdays of commoners.
Why are Pagans automatically "sinners?" Origen said "sinners," not "pagans." And Origen wasn't Catholic. According to tradition, he was Egyptian, and spent a lot of time working in Alexandria. In other words, he was more Eastern than Western.

There's no command to celebrate Easter, Thanksgiving, All Saints' Day, Pentecost, or the Transfiguration, either. So what? The Bible is not the entire compass of Xy. Celebrating the Incarnation is a Christian tradition. True, it was begun later than Christ. But arguing that "this isn't something Jesus would have done" is a red herring, in this case.

 

[sojourner]

christmas lasts only one day.
(according to "the" calander)

every day of the winter break is winter.



Your kids need to get back to school early.

We're not talking about what season it happens to be when the break happens. We're talking about the reason for the break, itself. The reason for the break is Christmas. Always has been. Had Christmas fallen on June 15, we'd break for Christmas then. And I doubt very much we'd call it "winter break."

 

[blackout]

We're not talking about what season it happens to be when the break happens. We're talking about the reason for the break, itself. The reason for the break is Christmas. Always has been. Had Christmas fallen on June 15, we'd break for Christmas then. And I doubt very much we'd call it "winter break."

ok honey.

however you like it.

(I'm rather thinkin' there'd be a break there anyway.
Where else to break but right between semesters?
Neatly in the middle.)

I'm just having fun here.
trying to stay amused with life.

been sick all week.

don't really care what it all is,
and I don't get any break anyway.

I'm working same as always.

 

[sojourner]

ok honey.

however you like it.

(I'm rather thinkin' there'd be a break there anyway.
Where else to break but right between semesters?
Neatly in the middle.)

I'm just having fun here.
trying to stay amused with life.

been sick all week.

don't really care what it all is,
and I don't get any break anyway.

I'm working same as always.

What?! NO BREAK?! What Ebenezer Scrooge, airline, hospital, or hotel do you work for???

 

[tumbleweed41]

How many non-union, anti-socialist Americans take Labor Day off? Do they agonize over it's pro-labor, anti-corporate origins? Or do they just break out the grill, pop open a cold one, and enjoy the symbolic end of the summer?

 

[Metalic Wings]

Is it Christmas? Is it a break? It's "Christmas Break."

Or maybe, just maybe, it started out because the semester was coming to an end, and because it was winter time and difficult for children to get to school right in the midst of all of the snow storms, and lo and behold! Christmas! What a coincidence! But it's so true--there is no proof that it started BECAUSE of Christmas. It probably obtained the name Christmas break after a while because Christmas fell right there. And seriously, let's not forget the New Year.

I'm on Winter Break right now. My finals are over and I don't start up a new semester until January. MAYBE WINTER BREAK STARTED WITH COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO ACTUALLY GET A BREAK BETWEEN SEMESTERS AND TRICKLED DOWN TO HIGH SCHOOL AND ELEMENTARY. Maybe.

They obviously don't have a problem with having a "Thanksgiving break." I don't see why they should have a problem with "Christmas break."

Because Thanksgiving is a holiday to be thankful, specifically, for all that one has. It is an American founded holiday. It has nothing to do with religion. And therefore cannot come up properly in a religious debate. Am I right?

Of course it is. Celebrating the Incarnation is eminent religious truth.

So I'm just going to have to take a wild stab at this one and say "This is probably what HH meant when he said that he doesn't appreciate people trying to shove their ignorant beliefs on him"

I'm not saying that you are ignorant to believe this. I'm not saying that you're even wrong. But what you're doing right here is telling everyone on this thread, without a single care to what they believe in, that of course Christmas is truth! Of course it is! Because Jesus was obviously born on Christmas! And Jesus is the ultimate truth.

If you believe this, then that's great. Truly, I'm happy for you and your great faith. But that doesn't mean that this is truth for others and it doesn't make it fact to anyone but you, because it's your opinion.

Nice try, though.

christmas lasts only one day.
(according to "the" calander)

every day of the winter break is winter.

Well said =D

No, it isn't. The break has always been due to Christmas. If it were due to winter, the break would last a quarter of the calendar year. If some don't celebrate Christmas, then that's too bad for them!

Alright. Give me some hard proof, some actually researched hard proof that the break started because of Christmas. If you can do that, with sources and everything, then I will believe you.

But until that time I suggest that you stop trying to pretend like you know everything. Did you make the school system here in the US? Are you the one who invented "Christmas Break"? That's the only way I'll take your word 100%.

 

[Storm]

No, it isn't. The break has always been due to Christmas. If it were due to winter, the break would last a quarter of the calendar year. If some don't celebrate Christmas, then that's too bad for them!

Then why do the Jewish kids get out early?

I don't understand why you're making such a big deal about this.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Then why do the Jewish kids get out early?

I don't understand why you're making such a big deal about this.

I second this not-understanding.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Metalic Wings rants, ...

Well, I must say, good effort. Obviously, I've done the same thing on this thread, and I know it takes a lot of typing and concentration.

But at the same time, what I was really getting at, that I think was lost on you, is that 1)You already posted that whole big long post. I commented on it, someone else commented on it (if you're really that concerned, I can go back and find it). And then we moved on. But then you decided to drag it right back up again. What I was really trying to say was: If you really want to talk about it and it didn't take the first time, make your own thread to debate/ talk about. I would be more than happy to join in.

And 2)It really wan't all that on-topic for the thread in the first place. I mean, perhaps I'm wrong because it's obviously my own judgment, but I think you went a little too in detail with it. If you had maybe just pointed it out and made it connect better to the topic as a whole it might have made for some more conversation. But when I read it, it came across more as a rant about why the whole topic doesn't even matter. Like I said, I could very well be wrong. I'm just stating my own opinion. Sorry to have put you off.

(By the way, while I'm correcting you, the correct spelling is "metallic" not "metalic".)

Why thank you for pointing this out. I did indeed notice this. But you know what? It's easier to type with one "L" which is probably why I mistyped it in the first place, and I would rather not have to worry about constantly mistyping my username and creating frustration when I log in just because I had to make sure I spelled it correctly.

Besides, usernames are supposed to be an expression of yourself, nad it obviously expressed me well: I'm a terrible speller. I always keep dictionary.com handy

 

[Sacred Silence]

*UV is afraid to ask what ftw means...*

For the Win.

 

[Charity]

[te=sojourner;1818560]We're not talking about what season it happens to be when the break happens. We're talking about the reason for the break, itself. The reason for the break is Christmas. Always has been. Had Christmas fallen on June 15, we'd break for Christmas then. And I doubt very much we'd call it "winter break."[/quote]
Remember we have spring break and then remember the so called "Summer break" which really for many students starts in what is still the "Spring"...Since summer begins when?....Isn't it June 21?.....Then it would be Spring/Summer break...Maybe grounds for another discussion on "Give me a break"....June 15 still would not be summer break right?