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The Ukrainian War is over. Who will have to reconstruct Ukraine?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Exactly. I totally agree.
And it will be overall good for Ukraine to sign an armistice with Russia, since it eventually won the war.

Or do you apply double standards?
Doublestandardism?

Dois pesos e duas medidas? ;)
Sorry... this is just not even trying.

I will not pretend otherwise.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Russia is a Paradise because it has shut down its doors to individuals like Kissinger.
Russia is currently being controlled by someone a lot like Kissinger, but not nearly as smart. Hopefully, soon, they will both meet in hell for the harm they've done to so many others.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Russia is currently being controlled by someone a lot like Kissinger, but not nearly as smart. Hopefully, soon, they will both meet in hell for the harm they've done to so many others.
Of course. God will judge him, when he dies.

That said...Americans believe that we Europeans will fight against Russians to protect Ukraine.
Well...Ukraine did this to Europe. It destroyed a German infrastructure.

So if Americans think we will side with Kyiv after what they did to Germany, they must think we are stupid. ;)
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
In spring there are the new elections and I doubt they will elect a pro-war President. That is Mr Military-Green-Sweatshirt.
Rightly or not, it's already been said that those elections are unlikely to be held if they're still at war (which sadly seems all but inevitable). Even if they were, I couldn't see Zelensky loosing. You might see him as pro-war but I doubt most Ukrainians do and I certainly don't see any opponent succeeding on a policy other than continuing to fight Russia for the Ukrainian territory occupied in a similar manner. This is doubly true given that, even if were elections held, they wouldn't be able to include any of the occupied regions, where most of the viable opposition support exists.

With what money?
That wasn't really my point. You're looking at this as something for us to decide on when in reality it is the Ukrainian people who should be the focus. As I said, and just like pretty much any other war-ravaged country, Ukraine will obviously need a lot of outside funding and resources post war. They do have a significant advantage over many comparable examples in that they are a developed country with well established civil and social infrastructure though. It isn't going to be a country that will need rebuilding from the ground up like places such as Iraq or Afghanistan. And as I said, Ukrainians are already rebuilding where they can, largely with their own resources, because that basic level of rebuilding isn't all that difficult or expensive (physically at least).

Kissinger died three days ago...yes there are powerful individuals.
Kissenger is a classic example of someone who wasn't able to simply make what he wanted happen though. His profile was largely due to his ability as a diplomat and negotiator, having to try to convince and compromise others on his aims and intentions (not always successfully). And as often as not, he had to do that within the US as beyond. Again, the idea that there is some all powerful cabal freely able to control everything in the world is ridiculous.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Rightly or not, it's already been said that those elections are unlikely to be held if they're still at war (which sadly seems all but inevitable).
That's undemocratic.
They will not be admitted to the EU, if they promote this dictatorial drift.
Even if they were, I couldn't see Zelensky loosing.
With all the Ukrainians fleeing to Western Europe...?
I mean...they must hate him, if they quit Ukraine en masse.
You might see him as pro-war but I doubt most Ukrainians do and I certainly don't see any opponent succeeding on a policy other than continuing to fight Russia for the Ukrainian territory occupied in a similar manner.
Zelensky forbade opposition. Of course there are no political opponents.
This is doubly true given that, even if were elections held, they wouldn't be able to include any of the occupied regions, where most of the viable opposition support exists.
Maybe you haven't understood one thing yet.
Ukraine depends on EU aid.
If they keep having the primitive warlike approach, they will have to say goodbye to EU money.
Take it or leave it, Ukraine.
That wasn't really my point. You're looking at this as something for us to decide on when in reality it is the Ukrainian people who should be the focus.
Oh...please...
Ukrainians are fighting a proxy war on the US and the UK's behalf.
Let's play cards face up...sir.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
How exactly?



Why do you make up criteria out of thin air to justify war?



That's not how it works.
I have a video where Zelensky admits that the Ukrainian government doesn't let Russians in Donbas speak Russian, freely.

This makes Ukrainians the perpetrators, and not the victims.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I have a video where Zelensky admits that the Ukrainian government doesn't let Russians in Donbas speak Russian, freely.

This makes Ukrainians the perpetrators, and not the victims.

Even if true (which I have no idea if it is), that simply doesn't justify a russian invasion.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Even if true (which I have no idea if it is), that simply doesn't justify a russian invasion.
Listen, Koldo,
if I were a pro-Russian person, I would force Ukraine to remain under the aegis of Moscow.

And yet...I want Ukraine to join the EU as soon as possible.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
That's undemocratic.
It's not perfect but it's not unreasonable, and legal under martial law. They're engaged in a hot defensive war with a significant proportion of the country under foreign occupation. It could be argued that holding elections in those circumstances would be undemocratic too, given that so many Ukrainians would be unable to freely participate.

With all the Ukrainians fleeing to Western Europe...?
I mean...they must hate him, if they quit Ukraine en masse.
Nothing close to all Ukrainians fled to Western Europe. Most Ukrainian refugees are internally displaced and many who initially left have since returned. Regardless, assuming that everyone who left were fleeing Zelensky, rather than fleeing the Russians or the war in general, is clearly ridiculous. I know some Ukrainian refugees living here in the UK and they're all unconditionally supportive of both Zelensky (maybe even more so that they rationally should be).

Zelensky forbade opposition. Of course there are no political opponents.
No he didn't. There are plenty of active political parties in Ukraine (more than many other countries, in part due to it being a relatively young democracy). Several parties were banned, but only because they had directly and wilfully collaborated with the Russians. Anyway, you started by suggesting that Zelensky would loose an election but now you're claiming he has no opposition. You can't have it both ways.

Maybe you haven't understood one thing yet.
Ukraine depends on EU aid.
I've never suggested otherwise but I don't see how it is relevant to the point of whether Ukraine could or should hold elections during a hot war.

If they keep having the primitive warlike approach, they will have to say goodbye to EU money.
What "warlike approach"? Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around - why are they not "primitive" and "warlike" too? The various Ukrainian administrations since independence have been far from perfect, including the current one, and they've certainly contributed to the circumstances that led to war but to label Ukraine as a whole as "primitive" or "warlike" is, and I use this word yet again, ridiculous.

Ukrainians are fighting a proxy war on the US and the UK's behalf.
Let's play cards face up...sir.
Make your mind up. Is the war because Ukraine is primitive and warlike or is the war because the US and UK made them do it? It's certainly true that Western governments has sought to influence politics in the region for their own perceived benefits but then so has Russia.

Out of interest, what are you basing your understanding of internal Ukrainian politics on, because many of your statements seem to be inconsistent and flawed.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's not perfect but it's not unreasonable, and legal under martial law. They're engaged in a hot defensive war with a significant proportion of the country under foreign occupation. It could be argued that holding elections in those circumstances would be undemocratic too, given that so many Ukrainians would be unable to freely participate.
The state of war that prolongs a cabinet must be okayed by the Parliament.
Not by a single man. Otherwise it deals with dictatorship.

Nothing close to all Ukrainians fled to Western Europe. Most Ukrainian refugees are internally displaced and many who initially left have since returned. Regardless, assuming that everyone who left were fleeing Zelensky, rather than fleeing the Russians or the war in general, is clearly ridiculous. I know some Ukrainian refugees living here in the UK and they're all unconditionally supportive of both Zelensky (maybe even more so that they rationally should be).
Europeans should kiss Americans' feet.
Thanks to a proxy war started by Americans to use Ukrainians as human shields against the tsar, Europe has become much more nationalistic and anti-NATO; Ukrainians, that is white Christian migrants have moved to Western Europe, and nationalists adore white Christian migrants.
But more importantly the sabotage of Nordstream strengthened the EU.
Because they understood how alien forces are doing anything to sabotage their conjoined economic interests and now they are more united than ever.
Americans have made EU much stronger.
Congratulations.


No he didn't. There are plenty of active political parties in Ukraine (more than many other countries, in part due to it being a relatively young democracy). Several parties were banned, but only because they had directly and wilfully collaborated with the Russians. Anyway, you started by suggesting that Zelensky would loose an election but now you're claiming he has no opposition. You can't have it both ways.
Time will tell.
When the EU institutions enter Kyiv, they will investigate what horrors were committed during the war.
We have all the time in the world to ascertain that.

What "warlike approach"? Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around - why are they not "primitive" and "warlike" too? The various Ukrainian administrations since independence have been far from perfect, including the current one, and they've certainly contributed to the circumstances that led to war but to label Ukraine as a whole as "primitive" or "warlike" is, and I use this word yet again, ridiculous.
It's Ukrainians who want to join the EU.
If they do, they need to exit the Middle Ages and become like the other EU member states.


Make your mind up. Is the war because Ukraine is primitive and warlike or is the war because the US and UK made them do it? It's certainly true that Western governments has sought to influence politics in the region for their own perceived benefits but then so has Russia.
The US would do anything to dethrone the tsar. Even sacrifice 2 million Ukrainian lives.

Out of interest, what are you basing your understanding of internal Ukrainian politics on, because many of your statements seem to be inconsistent and flawed.
Who sabotaged the Nordstream pipelines?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
The state of war that prolongs a cabinet must be okayed by the Parliament.
It was and continues to be. Rather than making generic statements, maybe you should identify the specific undemocratic or dictatorial acts you're accusing Zelensky of committing.

Europeans should kiss Americans' feet...
None of that addresses my comments you quoted. I was challenging your claim that Ukrainians had quit the country "en masse" because they hate Zelensky. If you're going to move on to something entirely different, I'll just take it as a silent acceptance that you were wrong.

Time will tell...
Time will tell on whether you can have it both ways? What are you talking about? You're not addressing my comments that you quoted again. I was asking you which of your statements you're sticking with; Zelensky has banned all opposition or Zelensky would loose a presidential election it it was held in spring.

It's Ukrainians who want to join the EU...
Yet again, what does that have to do with my comments that you quoted? The question was essentially what exactly makes you call Ukraine "primitive" and "warlike"?

The US would do anything to dethrone the tsar. Even sacrifice 2 million Ukrainian lives.
Wow, that was kind of related to what you were actually quoting! If they'd really do anything, Putin would be dethroned (and dead) already. Again, I totally agree that US and other Western governments have interfered in Ukrainian politics for their own (perceived) benefits. In turn, will you agree that the Russian government has also done exactly the same?

Who sabotaged the Nordstream pipelines?
I don't know and I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure. I also suspect the answer would be complex, with some people ordering it, some people actually doing it, some people being aware and not stopping it and some people becoming aware after the fact but keeping it to themselves. And that is all likely to cover people around the world, across politicians, civil servants, the military, business and the media.

Now back to my question you quoted but ignored there; What are you basing your understanding of internal Ukrainian politics on, because many of your statements seem to be inconsistent and flawed?
 
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