The UK submits to USA blackmail over Huawei.

[Terrywoodenpic]

These are the folks you elected to represent your interests in all circumstances. The obvious implication is that they will cater to the best interests of the people is any upcoming future situations. And, if you don't like their governance I assume you have similar means to redress your government like we do in the us.

Of course, I suppose it is easier to blame the US.

Before Trump raised it it was not even an issue in the UK
It was his pressure and his decision to bock the supply of parts and trade war that has made it one. As usual only a minority of the electorate voted for the government.
It is the way it works here. It is little better than your system.

There is a sufficiently large part of the Tory party on the extreme right wing to unseat Johnson as PM. He did not chose to resist either them or Trump.

We are stuck with the several billion pound bill and the putting back of the 5G program for many years... Not to mention the cost of settling the contract payments to Huawei.
And the loss of jobs for thousands of British worker doing the work.


At times governments can be extremely stupid.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

US electronics companies have been literally paying Chinese factories to do this since the invention of the first iPhone. As far as I can tell, the thing that's changed is that there now exist Chinese electronics companies who are in direct competition with their US counterparts.

A bit more than that , they have surpassed them In almost every way.
There no longer are any American counterparts to Huawei. For telecommunications equipment. They lead the world., Not just in volume but in advanced technology.
The UK will now have to install second best equipment. For a much higher price, and take far longer to do it. Engineers could convert one of their 4G masts to 5G in under an hour. They were already compatible. All that is now lost.

 

[columbus]

At times governments can be extremely stupid.

Great thing that we live in democracies, eh?
Tom

 

[Nakosis]

At times governments can be extremely stupid.

No disagreement there. That is why I feel it best to limit government's powers.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No disagreement there. That is why I feel it best to limit government's powers.

Unfortunately what we would replace them with would be equally bad.
We are as bad at these things as governments are.

 

[metis]

That has become a position increasingly promoted by Trump and the right of the republican party, and is gaining some traction in the west including the UK. China would prefer to be friends with the west. However if the west persists in regarding them as enemies, the danger is clear for all to see. It is a position of envy of Chinese success in trade and technical superiority in manufacturing. rather than compete with them the USA and The USA are trying to freeze them out with bans and phoney scare stories.

China will continue to do that which is in the Chinese interest, much like we tend to do here in the States. However, where the rather scary difference is is that China plays chess, the U.S. plays checkers, but Trump plays tic-tack-toe and usually loses. His handling of the covid-19 crisis, as compared to the eastern Asians, is like watching the Keystone Cops.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

China will continue to do that which is in the Chinese interest, much like we tend to do here in the States. However, where the rather scary difference is is that China plays chess, the U.S. plays checkers, but Trump plays tic-tack-toe and usually loses. His handling of the covid-19 crisis, as compared to the eastern Asians, is like watching the Keystone Cops.

Actually the Chinese invented Go a much more difficult game of strategy some 4000 years ago. They still have some of the top professional players in the world alongside Japan and Korea.

It is no wonder that they are so good at very long term strategy.
Whereas the USA thinks short term at best and Trump not at all.
I doubt he even knows what Go is.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes indeed.... but it is a right wing section of the Tory party that wants to get into bed with the USA and were leaders in the Brexit battle...
The same people who want to privatise the NHS, and import American, chlorine washed chicken , antibiotic fed beef and GM crops.
they want the UK to be a puppet of the USA.
You should not forget William Hague is a product of the secretive right wing McKinsey & Company who promotes "leaders" in positions of power where ever they can influence the most people. and has been a leader of this group in the Tory party since he was first elected.
he is passionately pro US.

I was always under the impression that the capitalists in the US and UK were, more or less, on the same side and had common interests. In other words, it doesn't seem that they're puppets or being blackmailed, but they're benefiting just as much as their US counterparts. The common people in both countries still get screwed just the same.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

US electronics companies have been literally paying Chinese factories to do this since the invention of the first iPhone. As far as I can tell, the thing that's changed is that there now exist Chinese electronics companies who are in direct competition with their US counterparts.

Yup. American Capitalism, Chinese Communism, they only function to serve the elites in a symbiotic relation that is detrimental to the citizens. We get cheap crap because we can't afford good quality because the manufacturing jobs went to China. Which wouldn't be bad, except the American economy never really evolved to take that loss in jobs, or further job loss from technology. China has jobs, but they are sweat shop jobs with suicide jump nets outside the offices. American and Chinese citizens lose, corporate fat cats win.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

China will continue to do that which is in the Chinese interest, much like we tend to do here in the States. However, where the rather scary difference is is that China plays chess, the U.S. plays checkers, but Trump plays tic-tack-toe and usually loses. His handling of the covid-19 crisis, as compared to the eastern Asians, is like watching the Keystone Cops.

We play Chess, they play Go. We see that in personal lives, military strategy and even corporate might. We are all about individual pieces, they are about a collective whole.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I was always under the impression that the capitalists in the US and UK were, more or less, on the same side and had common interests. In other words, it doesn't seem that they're puppets or being blackmailed, but they're benefiting just as much as their US counterparts. The common people in both countries still get screwed just the same.

No country benefits from a trade war. Trump has put considerable ongoing pressure on the UK to comply with his boycot.
People in the financial world always find a way of benefitting from conflict and disaster.. it is their meat and gravy.

Until Trump came to power the USA and UK were at least working Allies. However that is clearly no longer true, nor can we rely on it. Trump is simply too fickle to trust.

 

[Stevicus]

No American company has either the resources or skills to compete in that market. nor has there been, since the departure of T&T. so America is inevitably relying on foreign suppliers for the full telecommunication package.

So, in other words, poor leadership, greed, mismanagement, and myopia (for the past 40 years) have made America into a backwards and dependent nation, far behind that of other industrialized societies. I can believe that. It was our own government and ruling class. They're the ones who led us to this sorry state. Can't blame China for that. They're just taking advantage of our own leaders' stupidity and incompetence. It's not even something that can be blamed completely on Trump, although he appears to be making a bad situation even worse.

There's always been subtle paranoia about China, although it's been somewhat muted these past decades because of the cozy, lovey-dovey relationship Corporate America has had with China. I don't know if it's been the same in the UK or not, although I remember when a lot more Americans were really, really worried about China, back when they were under Mao.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So, in other words, poor leadership, greed, mismanagement, and myopia (for the past 40 years) have made America into a backwards and dependent nation, far behind that of other industrialized societies. I can believe that. It was our own government and ruling class. They're the ones who led us to this sorry state. Can't blame China for that. They're just taking advantage of our own leaders' stupidity and incompetence. It's not even something that can be blamed completely on Trump, although he appears to be making a bad situation even worse.

There's always been subtle paranoia about China, although it's been somewhat muted these past decades because of the cozy, lovey-dovey relationship Corporate America has had with China. I don't know if it's been the same in the UK or not, although I remember when a lot more Americans were really, really worried about China, back when they were under Mao.

China has moved from being a communist country to a hybrid capitalists one in a command political system.
It would be foolish to think them as being anything like the Communists under Mao.
Their focus has moved toward industrial scientific technical and financial dominance.
They are now only communist in name.
They have no interest in War...but would make seriously bad enemies.
They are now virtually invulnerable from the sea.
And as India has discovered recently. they are able to reinforce any land border with massive forces with out any warning. However their forces are almost all primarily of a defensive nature. They have no means of moving large numbers either by sea or land much beyond their own borders.

 

[Stevicus]

No country benefits from a trade war. Trump has put considerable ongoing pressure on the UK to comply with his boycot.
People in the financial world always find a way of benefitting from conflict and disaster.. it is their meat and gravy.

Until Trump came to power the USA and UK were at least working Allies. However that is clearly no longer true, nor can we rely on it. Trump is simply too fickle to trust.

It's hard to say how much longer Trump will be in power. One would think that it would be easy to defeat him in November, but considering the opposition, who can say?

I don't know how long this rift will last; I thought maybe they might come back to the bargaining table and make a deal. That's what Trump was saying a while back, that he still wanted to trade with China, but he just wanted a better deal from them.

 

[gnostic]

I don’t know US spying on their friend and ally - the UK - is better than China spying on the UK.

There are no evidence to support China’s Huawei network is set up to spy on Britain. If anything, I more concern with the US NSA and CIA.

If the US companies are serious about exporting to the UK and Europe, then they should be more competent in trades and manufacturing and trade diplomacy, not using scare tactics and blackmail.

Trump and his government are just bunch of redneck morons, reviving the McCarthy witch-hunt.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Whilst not one to commonly defend the US, on this occasion I feel I need to push back a little.
One of the key rationales in the decision Australia made to block Huawei was around the changes to Chinese law instituted in 2017.
For any interested, this explains them more fully...

The Real Danger of China’s National Intelligence Law

I get that people might argue that this law shouldn't prevent free trade, etc, but the arguments I've seen here seem to suggest that only US interference would account for a ban on Huawei. Does anyone have an opinion on this law, or the possible security implications of it?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Whilst not one to commonly defend the US, on this occasion I feel I need to push back a little.
One of the key rationales in the decision Australia made to block Huawei was around the changes to Chinese law instituted in 2017.
For any interested, this explains them more fully...

The Real Danger of China’s National Intelligence Law

I get that people might argue that this law shouldn't prevent free trade, etc, but the arguments I've seen here seem to suggest that only US interference would account for a ban on Huawei. Does anyone have an opinion on this law, or the possible security implications of it?

I am sure that China had always assumed those powers going right back to the days of the Emperor's. It is not an especially communist activity.

The same is true in most countries. National security always assume powers, often secretly that can coerse it's people to work on their behalf. I would put the USA and UK amongst them. That China is honest enough to codify this formally in law, is the only surprise.

Sufficient private individuals have been caught red handed in such activities of all the major nations, that it is no longer a surprise to anyone. However China seems to be uniquely successful in not being caught out in this.

Perhaps China should be congratulated not penalised for being so honest about the. position they take in regard to their security powers.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I am sure that China had always assumed those powers going right back to the days of the Emperor's. It is not an especially communist activity.

The same is true in most countries. National security always assume powers, often secretly that can coerse it's people to work on their behalf. I would put the USA and UK amongst them. That China is honest enough to codify this formally in law, is the only surprise.

Sufficient private individuals have been caught red handed in such activities for all the major nations. That it is no surprise to anyone. However China seems to be uniquely successful in not being caught out in this.

Perhaps China should be congratulated not penalised for being so honest about the. Position they take in regard to their security powers.

Really?
My country spies on other countries. We cannot legally compel Australian citizens to do so, though, and I'm surprised you'd see this as 'honesty'.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Really?
My country spies on other countries. We cannot legally compel Australian citizens to do so, though, and I'm surprised you'd see this as 'honesty'.

There is no need to uses a law to enforce cooperation with the security forces. veiled threats to you and yours, is usually sufficient encouragement, that is if you can not be persuaded to "Volunteer" your services.... you seem to have altogether too much trust in in the good nature of your security forces. That or wear rose-tinted glasses. Security is seen as an imperative by all countries.
However existing laws can often be stretched to cover almost any official need. many are drafted with sufficient ambiguity for the purpose.
Governments are unlikely to draft laws to hamstring any security force from doing its job.

 

[Glaurung]

Good. I'd rather the democracies of the world take the high road and have as little to do with China as possible. Leave the CCP to build their Orwellian utopia. Let the west learn to manufacture again if need be.