The UK submits to USA blackmail over Huawei.

[oldbadger]

If you can buy a top Huawei phone with Android ten at a bargain price, just do it they are fantastic.

OK.......... so Huawei mobiles will still be safe?

You haven't got shares in Huawei, have you?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

OK.......... so Huawei mobiles will still be safe?

You haven't got shares in Huawei, have you?

I am not sure that is even possible to buy their shares as 5% are owned by the founder the rest are in the name of the employees and held for them by their trade union.
But the USA says that that means that the communist party ownes them.

But who ever does, it is the members who benefit from the profit.
Which is good for them at least.

But that is not something that the Americans would want to catch on at home. Which is another reason for them to hate Huawei even more.

Huawei phones in my limited experience are among the very best, and the cameras bear the Leica badge. And are fantastic. On mine the P20 Pro. It has 3 lenses at the back and one on the front. I just let it do it's thing.
They are as safe as any other Android phone. And no one has suggested any different.

 

[Stevicus]

They are not new laws as such, they just codified existing practices.

It has be said that there has always been fighting going on some where in China.
that is less obvious today but probably still true.

Where in China is there fighting going on? I heard about the recent incidents along the border with India, but from what I've read, the Chinese appear to be the aggressors there. They seem to have pretty strong security already in place, so what more do they need? As you mentioned earlier, there's no way anyone could attack them from sea, and they appear to have their borders pretty secure, even in the remote and desolate mountainous regions bordering Kashmir. I guess India won't be trying any invasions of China anytime soon.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

There is no need to uses a law to enforce cooperation with the security forces. veiled threats to you and yours, is usually sufficient encouragement, that is if you can not be persuaded to "Volunteer" your services.... you seem to have altogether too much trust in in the good nature of your security forces. That or wear rose-tinted glasses. Security is seen as an imperative by all countries.

So...I made no comment about the security forces in my country. They've done plenty of things I'm not proud of or in agreement with. Whilst I'm not expert in the area, terrorism is a hobby area of mine, so I wouldn't say I'm uninformed or naïve about the realities of national security and the actions most countries are willing to take.

You seem to be suggesting that laws are unimportant, and that nations will do whatever they wish anyway. What do you think the point of the National Intelligence Law (2017) is then?

We have seen instances in the West of companies refusing to release information to the government. That is illegal in China.

However existing laws can often be stretched to cover almost any official need. many are drafted with sufficient ambiguity for the purpose.
Governments are unlikely to draft laws to hamstring any security force from doing its job.

This isn't about drafting laws to hamstring security forces, but I can assure you there are plenty of laws which do so.
This is about drafting laws specifically to enable actions, and whether those laws should be considered when dealing with Chinese companies.

Basically, any data collected by a Chinese company is legally able to be gathered by the Chinese government if it's deemed 'in the best interests of Chinese security'. Further, the Chinese government can legally compel Chinese companies around what data they should be capturing.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Huawei phones in my limited experience are among the very best, and the cameras bear the Leica badge. And are fantastic. On mine the P20 Pro. It has 3 lenses at the back and one on the front. I just let it do it's thing.
They are as safe as any other Android phone. And no one has suggested any different.

It'll be interesting moving forwards though. The last 2 phones they've released don't have access to the Play Store or Google Apps due to US sanctions (despite being Android based).
So one impact of this is that it's encouraging development of the HarmonyOS, so they can compete directly and without reliance on Android/Google software.

Similarly they're being denied access to ARM chipsets, although there is a bit more noise in that space, as they have some sort of permanent license on...well...I'm not quite sure. Existing ARM technology I guess?

 

[oldbadger]

I am not sure that is even possible to buy their shares as 5% are owned by the founder the rest are in the name of the employees and held for them by their trade union.
But the USA says that that means that the communist party ownes them.

But who ever does, it is the members who benefit from the profit.
Which is good for them at least.

But that is not something that the Americans would want to catch on at home. Which is a

for them to hate Huawei even more.

Huawei phones in my limited experience are among the very best, and the cameras bear the Leica badge. And are fantastic. On mine the P20 Pro. It has 3 lenses at the back and one on the front. I just let it do it's thing.
They are as safe as any other Android phone. And no one has suggested any different.

I was only joking........... about the shares.....

I've got no qualms at all about companies run by employees, for employee wages, employee shares and employee futures.

If our leaders have reneged and cheated on an agreement and deal then that is just sick.
What country wants feedback like that?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It'll be interesting moving forwards though. The last 2 phones they've released don't have access to the Play Store or Google Apps due to US sanctions (despite being Android based).
So one impact of this is that it's encouraging development of the HarmonyOS, so they can compete directly and without reliance on Android/Google software.

Similarly they're being denied access to ARM chipsets, although there is a bit more noise in that space, as they have some sort of permanent license on...well...I'm not quite sure. Existing ARM technology I guess?

They have no problem using ARM based technology and chips, it is British technology not. American. The American technology restrictions do not apply.

There will be some resistance selling phones without Google apps preinstalled for western users. But alternative are already available, and people can upload any compatible Google apps them selves. They use an open source version. Of Android.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I was only joking........... about the shares.....

I've got no qualms at all about companies run by employees, for employee wages, employee shares and employee futures.

If our leaders have reneged and cheated on an agreement and deal then that is just sick.
What country wants feedback like that?

It seems that Borris does not care

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So...I made no comment about the security forces in my country. They've done plenty of things I'm not proud of or in agreement with. Whilst I'm not expert in the area, terrorism is a hobby area of mine, so I wouldn't say I'm uninformed or naïve about the realities of national security and the actions most countries are willing to take.

You seem to be suggesting that laws are unimportant, and that nations will do whatever they wish anyway. What do you think the point of the National Intelligence Law (2017) is then?

We have seen instances in the West of companies refusing to release information to the government. That is illegal in China.



This isn't about drafting laws to hamstring security forces, but I can assure you there are plenty of laws which do so.
This is about drafting laws specifically to enable actions, and whether those laws should be considered when dealing with Chinese companies.

Basically, any data collected by a Chinese company is legally able to be gathered by the Chinese government if it's deemed 'in the best interests of Chinese security'. Further, the Chinese government can legally compel Chinese companies around what data they should be capturing.

All countries collect security data however and from wherever they can.
China is no different.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Where in China is there fighting going on? I heard about the recent incidents along the border with India, but from what I've read, the Chinese appear to be the aggressors there. They seem to have pretty strong security already in place, so what more do they need? As you mentioned earlier, there's no way anyone could attack them from sea, and they appear to have their borders pretty secure, even in the remote and desolate mountainous regions bordering Kashmir. I guess India won't be trying any invasions of China anytime soon.

The battle between China and India was unarmed combat, we know India suffered some losses but China has not released numbers. We do not know what the skirmish was over or what started it. China has moved a battalion strength force into place to prevent further action.

All seems very unusual but the reaction seems reasonable in such a volatile frontier.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

They have no problem using ARM based technology and chips, it is British technology not. American. The American technology restrictions do not apply.

Have to apologise on this one. I work in software, but telecommunications. I'd heard that the latest US legislation (May) would impact chipsets where US EDA tools were used (includes ARM). However it appears that rumour hasn't led to ARM restricting supply. That's what I get for listening to locker room talk. Suffice to say it's not just US produced goods which are impacted.

There will be some resistance selling phones without Google apps preinstalled for western users. But alternative are already available, and people can upload any compatible Google apps them selves. They use an open source version. Of Android.

Personally I think you're understating the impact of this outside China. It doesn't impact on the domestic market, but Huewai makes generally excellent products in my experience...competing with top end Google, Apple and Samsung products without Play access or Google Services is like competing with one hand tied behind their back.

Huawei’s P40 Pro is an stunning phone that you shouldn’t buy

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Have to apologise on this one. I work in software, but telecommunications. I'd heard that the latest US legislation (May) would impact chipsets where US EDA tools were used (includes ARM). However it appears that rumour hasn't led to ARM restricting supply. That's what I get for listening to locker room talk. Suffice to say it's not just US produced goods which are impacted.

It seem that the chips are made in South Korea and they have chosen to ignore the ban on the use of the US EDA tools. May be they have found a source of alternative tools for the future. It would be hard to believe that only Americans could develop them. IF that is so , this ban could be very bad for US sales in the future. At the moment, many Hi Tech producers feel that they are being black mailed by American bans. so alternative would be very welcome. You can Bet Huawei and their Chinese chipset suppliers are working hard on this. and they would be very happy to release such products on to the world markets, to break the US hegemony.

Personally I think you're understating the impact of this outside China. It doesn't impact on the domestic market, but Huewai makes generally excellent products in my experience...competing with top end Google, Apple and Samsung products without Play access or Google Services is like competing with one hand tied behind their back.

Huawei’s P40 Pro is an stunning phone that you shouldn’t buy

I have no doubt at all that people will be very upset not being able to use google apps. However others will be pleased to have a way to get from under Google's pervasive thumb.
It seem it is possible for users to down load most google apps on t0 the Huawei open version of Android. and it seems that they are designing Harmony to be compatible for other app designers.
I have also read that they have released several $billion for designers to make comparable apps for the HarmonyOS. and have had a massive uptake.

Of course these American bans have set them back, but they have also forced them to take action to remove themselves from future US restrictions. In the medium to long term this will be very much to their advantage, and to the financial and trade disadvantage of the USA.
who up to now have relied on key monopolies and patents.

In some respects the boot is now on the other foot, as Huawei own many 5G key patents.
but America is years behind in rolling out 5G anyway.

No reasonable person in the future will willingly choose to rely on American technology, now America has shown its willingness to to disrupt word trade by banning its use. Even world leading technology is useless if you are not free to use it. For many its use has prove a very costly mistake. Innocent third parties have been made bankrupt.

Trump has a great deal to answer for.

 

[Augustus]

I am not sure that is even possible to buy their shares as 5% are owned by the founder the rest are in the name of the employees and held for them by their trade union.
But the USA says that that means that the communist party ownes them.

But who ever does, it is the members who benefit from the profit.
Which is good for them at least.

But that is not something that the Americans would want to catch on at home. Which is another reason for them to hate Huawei even more.

Now Huawei is an enlightened and progressive beacon of hope that scares the US by being a good example? Trump bad, China good...

Your love affair with a company that was founded by a senior army officer (and thus Party affiliated), that's shares are owned by a state body, is the beneficiary of great subsidies from a highly repressive government, has highly questionable labour and business practices and is actively enabling the oppression of millions is quite strange.

Criticism of Huawei - Wikipedia

Huawei Faces New Backlash Over ‘Mass Ethnic Persecution’ In China
Huawei Faces New Backlash Over ‘Mass Ethnic Persecution’ In China


I doubt you'd deem as praiseworthy a US multinational with close ties to Trump that had a similar track record.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Now Huawei is an enlightened and progressive beacon of hope that scares the US by being a good example? Trump bad, China good...

Your love affair with a company that was founded by a senior army officer (and thus Party affiliated), that's shares are owned by a state body, is the beneficiary of great subsidies from a highly repressive government, has highly questionable labour and business practices and is actively enabling the oppression of millions is quite strange.



Criticism of Huawei - Wikipedia

Huawei Faces New Backlash Over ‘Mass Ethnic Persecution’ In China
Huawei Faces New Backlash Over ‘Mass Ethnic Persecution’ In China


I doubt you'd deem as praiseworthy a US multinational with close ties to Trump that had a similar track record.

Have you bothered to read the links that you posted.
There are no facts, there are no proofs of anything. It is all supposition and smoke an mirrors by people full time engaged in attacking China.

As to Huawei, it is obvious that they supply telecommunications equipment to the Chinese Government and it's agencies. That is exactly what our hi-tech companies do here. And exactly what you would expect them to do.

I do not expect you to like China, but I do expect you show a modicum of honesty in your attacks.

If you have any sort of case it is against China not its respected world leading technical companies. Unless of course that is your Target.
At some some point you will have to face up to reality. America has fallen behind the far Eastern countries like Korea. Taiwan and China who now lead the world in Hi_tech design, manufacture and supply. Trade war with them will only make them stronger and The US weaker, as they remove their remaining reliance on US technology.

Trump has done your country untold harm in turning America and it's people against China. It is a self defeating policy.

 

[Augustus]

Have you bothered to read the links that you posted.
There are no facts, there are no proofs of anything. It is all supposition and smoke an mirrors by people full time engaged in attacking China.

Is it a conspiracy theory that the Chinese are horrendously persecuting the Uighers?

As to Huawei, it is obvious that they supply telecommunications equipment to the Chinese Government and it's agencies. That is exactly what our hi-tech companies do here. And exactly what you would expect them to do.

And it's obvious that you don't become a major company of national strategic importance founded by a senior army officer in a state that is fanatical in surveilling and controlling its population, and receive massive government subsidies, and have a highly opaque ownership structure where shares are controlled by a 'trade union' (which is under the control of the government) without being in bed with the government.

Do you think that Russian oligarchs operate independently of Putin and just happen to 'supply the government the same as any other business' too? Or is it just China that is the apple of your eye?

I do not expect you to like China, but I do expect you show a modicum of honesty in your attacks.

A paid shill might baulk at some of the platitudes you are lavishing on the Chinese and Huawei.

You claimed that enacting a law that forces citizens to become a spy or risk the destruction of themselves and their families is 'just what the West do'.

No matter how much you hate the West, trying to claim it is pretty much the same as the current Chinese regime is very naive.

If you have any sort of case it is against China not its respected world leading technical companies.

How do you think they achieved such a rapid ascent in such a repressive state that has followed a long -term strategy of economic nationalism? Good honest fair competition?

rump has done your country untold harm in turning America and it's people against China. It is a self defeating policy.

No he hasn't because I'm not an American.

Are you in favour of Britain being economically dominated by predatory external powers, or would you prefer a stronger role for domestic companies in the UK economy?

 

[Stevicus]

The battle between China and India was unarmed combat, we know India suffered some losses but China has not released numbers. We do not know what the skirmish was over or what started it. China has moved a battalion strength force into place to prevent further action.

All seems very unusual but the reaction seems reasonable in such a volatile frontier.

Both China and India have somewhat nationalistic leaders at present, so it's hard to say how this will play out. Could Trump look to Modi as a potential ally against China? On that note, Japan and South Korea probably wouldn't want to fall under China's thumb either, nor would any of the other nations in that region. However bad the U.S. and Trump might be at present, China doesn't appear to be a palatable alternative.

Russia is another player in the region which may not react kindly to Chinese aggression against India.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Both China and India have somewhat nationalistic leaders at present, so it's hard to say how this will play out. Could Trump look to Modi as a potential ally against China? On that note, Japan and South Korea probably wouldn't want to fall under China's thumb either, nor would any of the other nations in that region. However bad the U.S. and Trump might be at present, China doesn't appear to be a palatable alternative.

Russia is another player in the region which may not react kindly to Chinese aggression against India.

Actual warfare between India And China is very unlikely. just as it is between. Pakistan and India . All three are Nuclear states.

India's and China would be better off as friendly trading nations. It is probably China's friendly attitude to Pakistan that is the real problem.

The borders between India Pakistan and China are ill defined and have been contentious since forever.

Russia seems to have taken a back seat in the region ever since they were pushed out of Afghanistan. However their interests will eventually clash with China over the exploitation of the Artic. But since China plans so long term the outcome is probably all but worked out.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Is it a conspiracy theory that the Chinese are horrendously persecuting the Uighers?

It certainly seems that China is running a major program to de-Islamify them by institutional means . I am sure that that is very unpleasant indeed. However it is pretty much in line with how anyone would expect China to deal with dissidents. While in the Empire days they would have eliminated them entirely, it seems that the tactic now is to "reeducate" them in camps.

Chines actions tend to follow traditional lines not western values. I am sure they know very well that we do not approve of their actions.

And it's obvious that you don't become a major company of national strategic importance founded by a senior army officer in a state that is fanatical in surveilling and controlling its population, and receive massive government subsidies, and have a highly opaque ownership structure where shares are controlled by a 'trade union' (which is under the control of the government) without being in bed with the government.

He served an an engineer in the PLA and was never a high ranking officer. it was only later in his career that he was permitted to join the communist party because of his family ties to the Nationalist Party.
He started his company as a parts supplier from a company in Hong Kong. It has only been since he started making low cost successful switch gear that he started supply the government and agencies it was inevitable that he would develop close ties with them as his company grew. He now owns only 1.42% of the shares the rest are held by the the union as a single holding following Chinese law ( private limited companies may only have 50 shareholders in China) the employees benefit from the entire distributed dividend.

It could well be argued that all Chines companies are at the beck and call of the chines state. it is a command structure after all, Huawei are not a "special" case nor any different to other Chinese companies.

Do you think that Russian oligarchs operate independently of Putin and just happen to 'supply the government the same as any other business' too? Or is it just China that is the apple of your eye?

I know little about How Putin controls his "Empire" bur it has nothing to do with China or Huawei.

You claimed that enacting a law that forces citizens to become a spy or risk the destruction of themselves and their families is 'just what the West do'.

No matter how much you hate the West, trying to claim it is pretty much the same as the current Chinese regime is very naive.

I have Little regard for the governments of the UK or the USA but I certainly do not hate the Countries.

China seems to be pretty much unique in creating a law covering the subservience of their companies to the state.
But in practice that is little different to the Power Trump demonstrates in banning American companies trading either with China, or with foreign companies that trade with China. Both actions show the power of the two states over their people and Companies.

This power is pretty much the norm today.

How do you think they achieved such a rapid ascent in such a repressive state that has followed a long -term strategy of economic nationalism? Good honest fair competition?

Have you not been aware of the industrial growth of China, vast numbers of companies have grown up over the past 25 years, and since China retook responsibility for Hong Kong in 97 vast cities have been built in southern China and other growth zones. they now have more Millionaires than a majority of other countries, in that time they have become the second largest economy in the world.
It was reported yesterday that their growth is now accelerating again, now that the first wave of Covid19 has passed.

You might not care for their success but you must respect them for it.

Are you in favour of Britain being economically dominated by predatory external powers, or would you prefer a stronger role for domestic companies in the UK economy?

I am interested to see who ends up dominating the UK now we have left the EU, and have no trade agreements and no partners.
I rather think we will go to the highest bidder in a fire sale. to some wealthy predator.
The problem is that almost all our large successful companies are owned by foreign companies and investors.

 

[Stevicus]

Actual warfare between India And China is very unlikely. just as it is between. Pakistan and India . All three are Nuclear states.

India's and China would be better off as friendly trading nations. It is probably China's friendly attitude to Pakistan that is the real problem.

The borders between India Pakistan and China are ill defined and have been contentious since forever.

Russia seems to have taken a back seat in the region ever since they were pushed out of Afghanistan. However their interests will eventually clash with China over the exploitation of the Artic. But since China plans so long term the outcome is probably all but worked out.

The world would be a lot better off if everyone was friendly trading nations. Trouble is, China's government is not very friendly to anyone - even their own people. Of course, you could say the same thing about Trump.

But the Chinese government gets upset and goes off the rails over every little slight or criticism.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The world would be a lot better off if everyone was friendly trading nations. Trouble is, China's government is not very friendly to anyone - even their own people. Of course, you could say the same thing about Trump.

But the Chinese government gets upset and goes off the rails over every little slight or criticism.

But How many wars has it started?
It has been invaded by Britain, Russia and Japan
And came to the aid of korea and some other close by states.

it tends not to start conflicts.

But it puts down rebellions very severely.