the true merits of the vajrayana path .

[LuisDantas]

While I agree, it may be difficult to pinpoint who exactly is Mahayana and who is Nikayan. For what it is worth, I consider myself Nikayan, but I have some experience with several Mahayana and Vajrayana groups and teachings.

Then again, there is no particular benefit in aiming to fit neatly into a specific line just for classification's sake.

 

[SageTree]

Then again, there is no particular benefit in aiming to fit neatly into a specific line just for classification's sake.

Agreed. 100%

It's nice to partake in a tradition where the lines are burred in many ways....
Well... that is to say, where we play pretty nicely together.
That can't be said of all religious sects.... but even Buddhism falls prey to it sadly.

 

[ratikala]

dear sage tree ,

I dont want to get to caught up in the problematic side of life(and not saying that you guys were either) that wasnt the purpouse of this thread , but at the risk of derailing my own thread a few points raised here are realy important ,.....

I think what drew people away was the scripture thumping, mass quoting thereof and general arguing over this and that..... seems like completely the opposite of 'the point', if you ask me.

Admittedly that is why I stay away from a lot of the topics on RF period.

drew people away ? just of recent I would say could nearly have sent me running for the hills , the only thing that has kept me posting is something my guru said to me many years ago when I asked him why he maintained links with some people who were obviously giving him untold greif and who were behaving in an extremely adharmic fasion , causing problems , and basicaly creating a bad impression for the tradition .
to tell the truth I was also personaly upset at some things being done in the name of our sampradaya , but I felt that I could not leave otherwise who would be there to do my job , ..... his reply was that "there is more possibility to make change from within" in other words he was prepaired to fight for what he belived in and allthough things angered him he was going to stick it out !

so my attitude here is the same , I could quite happily give up , walk off , find another site to post on , but what is the point , I am not here to find a cosy place where people agree with my opinion , because I am not having an opinion , I am trying to keep the dharma wheel turning .

yet I understand that others have opinions and thoughts , this is all a part of the learning process , ultimately something we need to trancend , but for now that is the way it is , we are human . but thoughts feelings and opinions aside there is the thing that we are all trying to accheive Realisation of the true nature of phenomina , truth !

I came to learn. Not to be told 'I lost'... or 'need to take a side'.

you sir , and this goes for odion too are the venerable members who allready know enough to realise that one never stops learning
and wise enough to know that there is no side to take !
and my I take it upon my self to say there are no loosers , except those who think that they have won !

excuse me , sometimes I argue back , but not for the fight , who knows it might have a positive outcome ???
but just of recent I cant be bothered !

That is, there are plenty of days I wonder what I'm still doing here....
But I usually remember when I talk to one of you good people here.

:namaste

jai jai , fortunately I can say likewise :namaste

Thanks for keeping the sparks alive.

thanks also from me , thanks for the sparks and the efforts !

but now I must return to the original thread .......

or at least the tibetan tradition ,

'Turning obsticals into the path'

one of the things that so apealed to me about the tibetan traditions was on one hand the direct simplicity and on the other the ability to transform mundane actions into a method of practice , this occurs on so many levels within the vajrayana system .

what also apeals to me is it is very much about personal learning , personal experience , where I often clash with the opinions of others is that I feel it is not about ritual , ritual is there but it is merely a tool , so we are working with ourselves trying to transform that mundane being into a seeer of the truth , It dosent matter which traditions system one uses all that matters is that we cut through our preconceived ideas and open ourselves to greater understanding , so the question I asked is not about what we can quote but how we can use it .


any how back to the true merits of the vajrayana path

 

[SageTree]

dear sage tree etc....

In the interest of keeping this on topic, I will just say thank you for your inspiring, kind words. You speak rightly on many things you addressed. But to clarify, I hope you didn't feel included in the 'bickering people'... because you aren't.

You emit nothing but respect for others. From your words-tone to the very teaching you convey.

'Turning obsticals into the path'

one of the things that so apealed to me about the tibetan traditions was on one hand the direct simplicity and on the other the ability to transform mundane actions into a method of practice , this occurs on so many levels within the vajrayana system .

what also apeals to me is it is very much about personal learning , personal experience , where I often clash with the opinions of others is that I feel it is not about ritual , ritual is there but it is merely a tool , so we are working with ourselves trying to transform that mundane being into a seeer of the truth , It dosent matter which traditions system one uses all that matters is that we cut through our preconceived ideas and open ourselves to greater understanding , so the question I asked is not about what we can quote but how we can use it .

This is also something I like, and much like your Guru's way of confronting less than pleasant people to be around, we don't get through these issues by transcending them, rather I feel we are invited to intensely jump IN to these issues on our journey.

Again, thank you for your sharing.
:namaste

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ji

I think I'm getting it, "it" being the overall picture. I won't say it hit me yet like a vajra out of the blue (ha! it means thunderbolt as well as diamond ). I think I agree that it draws things together for me, as does deity yoga with mantra japa.I'm coming to see why Buddhism is a continuation of, not a schism with Hinduism, as some would have you believe.

jai ho !

welcome to the club !

not simply a continuation (although it is) but when you speak of the tibetan traditian , it is a pure ofspring of hindu tantra which has developed in its own way much dependant on time place and circumstance , much like water truth will surface in another place if burried or supressed in one !it will also take its own course dependant on the terain but never can it be stifled !

look at buddhism and the countries and cultures that have plaid host to the teachings
each have their own character even within the tibetan system there are gentler meditive traditions and then there are traditions which would appear to contradict many buddhist rules , within the tibetan system there is a lot more tollerance and understanding of each schools methods and a great crossover of teachings , however there have been times when some practitioners have been pulled in to more political disputes , but that happens everywhere and it is seldom to the benifit of the dharma .

I have suffered many cross buddhist arguements over time , one japanese freind telling me that I was not practicing buddhism !!!
what he should have said is you are not practicing the same tradition as me .
however seeing the trap in that case I obstained from arguing , he had grown up with a cultural form of buddhism which paid no importance to the eight fold path , did a bit of praying on high days and hollidays and got hopelessly drunk on the rest , but that is their culture , I can't criticise it , nor would I want to , that is his birth , who knows what birth we will take next !

bit there are elements of vedic thought throughout all schools of buddhism , it is simply natural a progression many cant or dont see it , as with many systems their origin is not what concerns them nor is cultural history concidered too deeply .

would be interesting to hear more on the concurrent thread you are seeing ?

 

[ratikala]

dear and most venerable sage ,

In the interest of keeping this on topic, I will just say thank you for your inspiring, kind words. You speak rightly on many things you addressed. But to clarify, I hope you didn't feel included in the 'bickering people'... because you aren't.

not at all my freind :namaste

well at least I hoped not

You emit nothing but respect for others. From your words-tone to the very teaching you convey.

I do my best to remain tollerant and conciderate at all times ,
but I might just deliberately rattle the odd person , who knows it might cause thought

This is also something I like, and much like your Guru's way of confronting less than pleasant people to be around, we don't get through these issues by transcending them, rather I feel we are invited to intensely jump IN to these issues on our journey.

I like the "invited intensly to jump in", yep its all part of the learning process ,
there are some issues that need to be faced streight on , this is the message of the gita , do your duty !
o.k. if you dont feel suitably equiped , dont fight , pray !.....but if you feel strong enough stand up and fight , the secret is being detatched from the outcome . and I have to add that you have to be sure that you are right before you enter battle , simmilarly you have to be detatched from any notion of it being a personal fight ,
there has to be no 'I' involved , and no deluded veiws , simply dharma .

as far as our gurus reaction , in the case in hand he was simply holding the same veiw gandhi ji expressed when he said " be the change you want to see "

but if it is change or preservation of the truth you canot do it from outside , it is best from within , look at ghandi envolvement in politics , would he ever have had the strength and dedication were the fight his own , his fight was for the lord ,and for the lords people .

the strength comes from surrender , a truely surrendered person can fight as he knows he has shelter of the lord .

so for us the first test of strength is the battle with the self , master the self then and only then are you truely equiped to take on the next fight .

Again, thank you for your sharing.
:namaste

you are most welcome :namaste

 

[SageTree]

:namaste

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I would say that 90% or better of the Buddhists here are a Mahayana Branch of some sort.

Yeah, every once in a while we get a Theravada, but they don't tend to stay around very long.

 

[Jainarayan]

dear prabhu ji



jai ho !

welcome to the club !

not simply a continuation (although it is) but when you speak of the tibetan traditian , it is a pure ofspring of hindu tantra which has developed in its own way much dependant on time place and circumstance , much like water truth will surface in another place if burried or supressed in one !it will also take its own course dependant on the terain but never can it be stifled !

Thanks.

Yes, offspring is a good way to put it. The basic elements and structure are there, but there are differences based on the time, place and circumstances. This is not unlike how a language changes... Latin became Spanish on the Iberian peninsula; Latin became Italian on the Italian peninsula; Latin became Romanian in Eastern Europe, and so on. The languages are 'daughters', offspring on one hand, but on the other hand continuations of the original language, which still exists.

what he should have said is you are not practicing the same tradition as me .
however seeing the trap in that case I obstained from arguing , he had grown up with a cultural form of buddhism which paid no importance to the eight fold path , did a bit of praying on high days and hollidays and got hopelessly drunk on the rest , but that is their culture , I can't criticise it , nor would I want to , that is his birth , who knows what birth we will take next !

There is always someone who will pronounce that your tradition is not the right way. This holds true for any religion. You have Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc. who are Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. when convenient or necessary. My family is like that. They are Catholic when necessary (funerals, weddings), yet they would mock my beliefs when they don't even attend church or remember how to pray the Rosary.

bit there are elements of vedic thought throughout all schools of buddhism , it is simply natural a progression many cant or dont see it , as with many systems their origin is not what concerns them nor is cultural history concidered too deeply .

Well said!

would be interesting to hear more on the concurrent thread you are seeing ?

I'm sure I will have more to say and ask as I move along in this learning process. One thing I can tell you is that I feel a sigh of relief knowing that what I have been feeling is not heretical or schismatic or uncommon. I've always been interested in eastern philosophies and from a distance... that "distance" being my description of when I was Christian... I never saw much of a discrepancy between any of the Dharmic religions.

I may be wrong, and need to learn before I run my mouth, but I don't see Buddha as having rejected the Vedas outright. Though I haven't read all his teachings yet. It seems to me he rejected what people were doing with the Vedas and what the use of the Vedas had become. Much as Jesus said "Hey! You Scribes and Pharisees, you are not living by the spirit and intention of the Law, but only by the rituals. You forgot what the scriptures are saying. I'm here to tell you that you've forgotten God".

Even Sri Krishna said that men pay attention to the "flowery words of the Vedas" and only seek material and heavenly pleasures", not knowledge. He says (I know you know this ) what use is a well (the Vedas?) when the whole country is flooded (the enlightenment and wisdom of the brahmanas, rishis, saints?). Words are cheap and meaningless if their intentions are not understood. I think that's what the Buddha was getting at.

I think the "rejection" (and I know that's not the right word) of a creator God is not that God doesn't exist, but contemplating on the beginning of the universe is not going to further one's enlightenment and salvation. I don't think Buddhism is atheistic, I think it's non-theistic, in that the idea of God is neither here nor there, in most schools unless I am mistaken. Now, in my thinking and my "syncretization", God is important for salvation and enlightenment. I can cite B.G. 8.5 and 18.65. I think I can still take away much of the common sense and practicality of Buddhist teachings without contradicting Hinduism.

Anyone, please feel free to correct, re-educate and rehabilitate my thinking. I'd like to learn and pull this all together.

 

[ratikala]

dear jainarayan ,

Thanks.

Yes, offspring is a good way to put it. The basic elements and structure are there, but there are differences based on the time, place and circumstances. This is not unlike how a language changes... Latin became Spanish on the Iberian peninsula; Latin became Italian on the Italian peninsula; Latin became Romanian in Eastern Europe, and so on. The languages are 'daughters', offspring on one hand, but on the other hand continuations of the original language, which still exists.

brings to mind another buddhist topic ' IMPERMINANCE' ,if we are here to experience the nature of samsaric existance then imperminance is somethingthat we have to accknowledge , nothing remains the same , just in the way last question we were facing was the origins of buddhism , in truth origin is the wrong conception as the buddhism that we recognise is but one turning of the dharma wheel , one apperance of the buddha in this age , there have been countless buddhas and countless ages .and even in this age as the teachings take on different slights of meaning as they pass through cultures something of the original essence remains .

There is always someone who will pronounce that your tradition is not the right way. This holds true for any religion. You have Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc. who are Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. when convenient or necessary. My family is like that. They are Catholic when necessary (funerals, weddings), yet they would mock my beliefs when they don't even attend church or remember how to pray the Rosary.

in truth there is no right way only different vheicles suitable for different mindsets

I'm sure I will have more to say and ask as I move along in this learning process. One thing I can tell you is that I feel a sigh of relief knowing that what I have been feeling is not heretical or schismatic or uncommon. I've always been interested in eastern philosophies and from a distance... that "distance" being my description of when I was Christian... I never saw much of a discrepancy between any of the Dharmic religions.

it might be heretical to some , but I wont go there at present .

I may be wrong, and need to learn before I run my mouth, but I don't see Buddha as having rejected the Vedas outright. Though I haven't read all his teachings yet. It seems to me he rejected what people were doing with the Vedas and what the use of the Vedas had become. Much as Jesus said "Hey! You Scribes and Pharisees, you are not living by the spirit and intention of the Law, but only by the rituals. You forgot what the scriptures are saying. I'm here to tell you that you've forgotten God".

I've been stuck in the middle of this arguement for years where buddhists veiw and tell it from one angle and vaisnavas another , this does not mean that one contradicts the other they are simply telling different aspects of the same story , put them together and you get a more complete account with both aspects being equaly valid .
here again you have imperminance rearing its head , nothing remains the same , teachings can be missapropriated , can be subject to abuse ....it happens again and again , in tibet the monastic system was revised by je tsonkapa which lead to the formation of the ge lugspa school same time lord chaitanya reformed vaisnava practice in bengal forming the bhakti movement , no one is rejecting the vedas simply re applying their eternal relavance .
yes and every time god gets forgottten someone has to shake things up a bit awake people to reality .


any how enough for one day
second half later ......

 

[SageTree]

I may be wrong, and need to learn before I run my mouth, but I don't see Buddha as having rejected the Vedas outright. Though I haven't read all his teachings yet. It seems to me he rejected what people were doing with the Vedas and what the use of the Vedas had become. Much as Jesus said "Hey! You Scribes and Pharisees, you are not living by the spirit and intention of the Law, but only by the rituals. You forgot what the scriptures are saying. I'm here to tell you that you've forgotten God".

From my heart to your fingers.... rightly said.
This perfectly captures my feelings.

 

[Jainarayan]

dear jainarayan ,



brings to mind another buddhist topic ' IMPERMINANCE' ,if we are here to experience the nature of samsaric existance then imperminance is somethingthat we have to accknowledge , nothing remains the same ,

That's the hardest lesson to learn and the greatest stumbling block... attachment and thinking nothing should or does change.

in truth there is no right way only different vheicles suitable for different mindsets

I've been stuck in the middle of this arguement for years where buddhists veiw and tell it from one angle and vaisnavas another , this does not mean that one contradicts the other they are simply telling different aspects of the same story , put them together and you get a more complete account with both aspects being equaly valid .
here again you have imperminance rearing its head , nothing remains the same , teachings can be missapropriated , can be subject to abuse ....it happens again and again , ...

:yes: Remember that Obiwan Kenobi told Luke that beliefs we cling to are true only from our own point of view. Impermanence AND relativity. Everything is relative.

"...put them together and you get a more complete account with both aspects being equaly valid " is what I am finding in my explorations these days. I am seeing things I didn't see before, and I'm seeing things that I think other people may not see, because it's from my p.o.v. and what speaks to me.

 

[Jainarayan]

From my heart to your fingers.... rightly said.
This perfectly captures my feelings.

I have my moments.

 

[ratikala]

sorry I was going to continue , and got sidetracked in reading some other posts , as the subject of vajrayana has sparked quite a few conversations recently ,


initialy I asked practitioners for comments of the benifits of the vajrayana path , it was intended to be an inspirational post as recently there have been too many negative posts which fast derail them selves in small talk or rivalry , both of which are highly un buddhst things to do !
so prehaps if there are any vajrayana practitioners amongst us ? they might like to comment on the goal and the merits of the path , or those new to vajrayana might like to say what apeals to them ?

 

[Jainarayan]

...those new to vajrayana might like to say what apeals to them ?

I've been incorporating meditation and prayers to Amoghasiddhi and Tara in my regular sadhana. I pray first and foremost to Narayana and do japa on His name. I do not see any conflict because I believe the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are additional aspects of God (as are we) who have a specialty. This may not be orthodox Vajrayana, but I never claimed to be orthodox anything. There is even a prayer to Maa Saraswati, by name, in prayers I found for Vajrayana sadhana, asking Her for the gift of speech and praising Her.

That said, I am beginning to get glimpses of what appeals to me. That is, a better understanding of all the things Sri Krishna asks us in the Bhagavad Gita to do in His name. Just one example from 3.9 is: "In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to God, become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of God without personal attachments." Unless I miss my guess and totally misunderstand (indeed a possibility ), doing everything in the name and service of God, making your whole life spiritual, it tantric.

Madhuri said (I'm paraphrasing) "Tantra is a kind of inner alchemy. You have a mountain of negativity: anger, hatred, lust, jealousy, self-pity, laziness, envy, fear, and so on; you transform this into a mountain of gold. In Tantric worldview, everything is energy. Our passions and feelings are bundled energy. When this energy is transformed it can be used for spiritual growth." Short version: when life throughs lemons at you, make lemonade.

While I want very much to be with God, and I know at some point it will happen, I think my dharma and karma is to stick around, keep coming back to help other beings. I can't do as much as I want in this world in this lifetime, but knowing that with God's permission and help, I can keep doing it until He says "OK, enough, your work is done, come home", I look forward to that. What I think I know of the Vajrayana path is that this is the way of it. Or else I've just made up my own school of religion.

But I still need to know how to use the dorje (double for Amoghasiddhi) and ghanta in sadhana. Do I simply hold them while meditating and/or chanting Om Amoghasiddhi Ah Hum, or do I do something like in this video? Vajra Bell Lesson by a Lineage Master - YouTube

 

[Jainarayan]

Btw, I received these books:

BARNES & NOBLE | A Guide to the Buddhas by Vessantara (Tony McMahon) | Paperback

BARNES & NOBLE | A Guide to the Bodhisattvas by Vessantara (Tony McMahon) | Paperback

BARNES & NOBLE | A Guide to the Deities of the Tantra by Vessantara (Tony McMahon) | Paperback

I did not realize that they are a series, in the order I listed them. I briefly thumbed through them and saw that they look like very quick reads with a nice plain writing style and beautiful color, black and white and line drawing illustrations. I have such a backlog of reading!

 

[ratikala]

sorry prabhu ji's I missed the new posts on page 4 when I posted this morning ,

namaskas:namaste


now where were we ?

'IMPERMINANCE'

ha prehaps before continuing I ought to correct my self , I had said .....

"brings to mind another buddhist topic ' IMPERMINANCE' ,if we are here to experience the nature of samsaric existance then imperminance is somethingthat we have to accknowledge , nothing remains the same ,"

what I should have said is that nothing within our conventional realm remains the same !

That's the hardest lesson to learn and the greatest stumbling block... attachment and thinking nothing should or does change.

but for us yes this is one of the hardest lessons , it is only when you said "attatchment and thinking that nothing should or does change " that I realised the error in this thinking ,and that I should have clarified what I was saying ....
yes , on our conventional level due to the imperminance of samsaric existance nothing is perminent , nothing stable , everything is subject to change , this is one of the fundamental principles of buddhism , we are talking very simple and much neglected 'Four knoble truths' and as we discussed it is our attatchment which causes not only suffering but also delusion .

but what I failed to mention was that on the ultimate level there is one , perminant unchanging truth ,

and by which ever path we endeavour to realise that truth we need to cut through the root of ignorance and cleanse our being of the aflictive emotions which bind us to this conditioned realm .

so we have methods , here we are discussing vajrayana path , but what is vajrayana path ? it is often described as swift method of cutting through ignorance and ataining enlightenment in this one life time . but if we are not carefull the path too can become yet another attatchment , I am seeing a lot of attatchment at the moment , attatchment to ones own conception , attatchment to ones conditioning , Hmmmm ... attatchment to allsorts of things , attatchment to ones accheivements , I've read some very interesting things here recently , people are saying "I am buddhist" , but in truth unless one takes refuge in buddha one is no buddhist , one can quote all the scripture one likes but that dosent make one a buddhist , this is the problem the arguement between schoolars and practitioners schoolars think that through learning that they know everything , where as the more the practitioner studdies the more he realises that he knows nothing , to the schollar 'satyam' is a word the true definition of which can be argued and debated , but to the practitioner 'satyam' begins to take on a meaning so vast and wonderous that we dedicate our lives to realising it .

"...put them together and you get a more complete account with both aspects being equaly valid " is what I am finding in my explorations these days. I am seeing things I didn't see before, and I'm seeing things that I think other people may not see, because it's from my p.o.v. and what speaks to me.

exactly if one walks around with their eyes closed ? .....nothing ! .... with their mind closed ? ......nothing ! .....head full of opinions ? ... nothing , no room for anything ,mind is full up !..... Hmmmm this is emptyness , empty of purpose , empty of worth , empty of truth ! waste of a precious human life ! only thing it is full of is ahamkara , illusion , this is emptiness ! except we dont see it !

but yes , you are seeing because you are looking , you are asking questions , you are old enough to realise that he who humbles himself becomes open , open to true learning , to true seeing , so satyam can speak to you , you are having the sence of 'no opinion' so the lense is clean , not coloured with fixed ideas .

so on the subject of looking from one direction or another , vajrayanya , mahayana , theravada , tantra , bhakti , advaita , ....the list of paths are endless what are they but systems to cleanse the heart and open the mind of the samsaric being , but each is aiming at knowing satyam , and the adepts of each who have realised anything have realised but a small fraction of the greatness of that vast complete fullness that their words are inept to describe .

so what point is there in us arguing , what we should be doing is listening with interest , I am not suggesting we take up each others religious practices as that is simply method , but we should pay each other the courtesy of listening , ... who knows we may even learn something !

then with those learnt fragments ? if we are wise we peice them to gether .

 

[ratikala]

namaskar prabhu ji ,

back to todays post ....

I've been incorporating meditation and prayers to Amoghasiddhi and Tara in my regular sadhana. I pray first and foremost to Narayana and do japa on His name. I do not see any conflict because I believe the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are additional aspects of God (as are we) who have a specialty. This may not be orthodox Vajrayana, but I never claimed to be orthodox anything. There is even a prayer to Maa Saraswati, by name, in prayers I found for Vajrayana sadhana, asking Her for the gift of speech and praising Her.

I see no harm if you are sincerely praying you are simply requesting the blessing of the deity , I am not even sure that there is an ortodox vajrayana ! there are different aspects taught by different masters , and as you say you have found a sadhana requesting the blessing of a hindu divinity along side that of a vajrayana yidam ,

so what does that tell us other than there has long been acceptance between schools , something we should look more closely at .

That said, I am beginning to get glimpses of what appeals to me. That is, a better understanding of all the things Sri Krishna asks us in the Bhagavad Gita to do in His name. Just one example from 3.9 is: "In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to God, become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of God without personal attachments." Unless I miss my guess and totally misunderstand (indeed a possibility ), doing everything in the name and service of God, making your whole life spiritual, it tantric.

say for instance I were to substitute one word ..."In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to truth , become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of truth without personal attachments." ....

unless we devote our selves to the realisation of truth , we are in bondage , our practice unless it is dedicated to the realisation of truth , is bondage . therefore work for the sake of truth , realisation , enlightenment , the higest state of being , god the eternal imperishable fullness of wisdom , god , buddhi , inteligence .

Madhuri said (I'm paraphrasing) "Tantra is a kind of inner alchemy. You have a mountain of negativity: anger, hatred, lust, jealousy, self-pity, laziness, envy, fear, and so on; you transform this into a mountain of gold. In Tantric worldview, everything is energy. Our passions and feelings are bundled energy. When this energy is transformed it can be used for spiritual growth."

"everything is energy " truth also is energy , divine energy , the most perfect incoruptable eternal energy , .... god !

While I want very much to be with God, and I know at some point it will happen,

it is hapening moment by moment ! at present you are with him but dont see him ,

I think my dharma and karma is to stick around, keep coming back to help other beings. I can't do as much as I want in this world in this lifetime, but knowing that with God's permission and help, I can keep doing it until He says "OK, enough, your work is done, come home", I look forward to that. What I think I know of the Vajrayana path is that this is the way of it. Or else I've just made up my own school of religion.

jai ho , .... 'eyes open school' , I just christened it ! ...you can join in felowship with my 'mind open school' and we can invite sage tree to form the 'heart open school'

But I still need to know how to use the dorje (double for Amoghasiddhi) and ghanta in sadhana. Do I simply hold them while meditating and/or chanting Om Amoghasiddhi Ah Hum, or do I do something like in this video? [youtube]TOScDOMLCLM[/youtube]
Vajra Bell Lesson by a Lineage Master - YouTube

not of vital importance , motivation and pure mind matter most of all , master single pointed concentration first .


thanks for the conversation you have reknewed my faith in samsaric beings ability to look beyond the self

but you do realise one thing ? ....true vajrayana practitioners are totalamente pazzo

 

[Jainarayan]

I see no harm if you are sincerely praying you are simply requesting the blessing of the deity , I am not even sure that there is an ortodox vajrayana ! there are different aspects taught by different masters , and as you say you have found a sadhana requesting the blessing of a hindu divinity along side that of a vajrayana yidam

Yeah, that's really what it is. I think it's no different than praising and praying to Sri Hanuman for a blessing. All beings emanate from God. I think a vajrayana yidam has a particular specialty. All the deities, devas, buddhas and demi-gods have their specialties.

so what does that tell us other than there has long been acceptance between schools , something we should look more closely at .
say for instance I were to substitute one word ..."In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to truth , become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of truth without personal attachments." ....

unless we devote our selves to the realisation of truth , we are in bondage , our practice unless it is dedicated to the realisation of truth , is bondage . therefore work for the sake of truth , realisation , enlightenment , the higest state of being , god the eternal imperishable fullness of wisdom , god , buddhi , inteligence .

:clap

but you do realise one thing ? ....true vajrayana practitioners are totalamente pazzo

It sure does look that way.

 

[Jainarayan]

Oh btw, thanks for the tip about the ritual in the video. I found another little write up that indicated that you really only hold the dorje and bell in the prescribed manner and meditate; nothing like in the video. That must be some other elaborate rite.