1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Supernatural - Science?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,133
    Ratings:
    +25,430
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    I thought I was fairly clear. Your definition above says that something is supernatural if it cannot be explained with the laws of science. But those laws are a moving target and there seems to be no reason why things like ghosts, angels and gods wouldn't be subject to scientific analysis.

    So either you take the laws of nature as we understand them now, which would make many phenomena that everyone would accept as natural to be supernatural under the definition, OR you talk about some ultimate laws of science which we don't have access to and thereby cannot determine whether any given phenomena is supernatural or not.

    Either way, the definition of supernatural used is useless. Try again.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Maybe I am not very bright.
    Why is it when I post a definition which I copied and pasted from Wikipedia, I get beaten over the head for it? I am so befuddled.
    What is it I am missing? o_O
     
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,133
    Ratings:
    +25,430
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Well, I am pointing out that this may not be the most useful definition. Your posting of it shows a certain amount of support for that definition. Your question depends on the concept of a supernatural, so it is a good idea to clarify what is meant by that term.

    I'm sorry if you feel 'beat over the head'. That is certainly not my intention. I was hoping for a more precise definition for a central concept in your question.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I can only go by what is given secularly. I cannot make up my own.
    If I were talking of evolution and I pull up a definition on it, I have to take what I am given, I can't change it to suit me.

    Once upon a time, the definition for evolution, included a phrase - from one common ancestor. Now they have removed that. So I can't go and add that on. People here would lynch me for it.

    When I post, I use what I believe to be the most accepted - and so I choose Wikipedia. That way... I thought, everyone can be on the same page.

    I'm totally shocked. :openmouth:
    If I were 90 years old, I'd probably have dropped from a heart attack.
     
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,133
    Ratings:
    +25,430
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Well, do you understand the difficulties with the given definition? And why those difficulties might be relevant to your question?
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I considered my question a free and open question, and most persons seemed to handle it very well. In fact, the answers many gave I found to be quite well presented in handling the OP, even though it was lengthy, and perhaps required elimination of things I included.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I was just going over the OP, and realized I had overlooked your post. Sorry I missed it, because you asked a good question - appropriate to the last few posts.
    Based on the definition given for supernatural - or any you choose to use - since there seem to be a problem with the one in the OP... How would you answer your question?
     
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +2,014
    Any force or power above nature as we know it, or something of a phenomenon known to exist but defies physical explanation is how i define supernatural.

    Also if its natural then it must be in accordance with nature.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,133
    Ratings:
    +25,430
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    OK, so you would classify dark matter as supernatural? We don't, as yet, have a physical explanation of it. We know it is there because of its measured effects. Similar things could be said about dark matter.

    And, of course, at any one time there are many known phenomena that don't have physical explanations: that's not to say they *won't* be explained, but merely that the research hasn't given a tested explanation yet.
     
  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +2,014
    Defy is my key word. A known phenomena that absolutely can not be explained in standard physical terms.

    Dark matter is an unknown, so i cant classify it. Dark matter could be weakly interacting with normal matter. I wouldnt classify it.

    I have never come across anything supernatural. Perhaps inflation or quantum entanglement might defy physical explanation; a known physical cause.

    I dont believe in magic
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Great!
    You've made it more interesting.

    Phenomenon
    A phenomenon is any thing which manifests itself. Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as "things that appear" or "experiences" for a sentient being, or in principle may be so.
    The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with the noumenon. In contrast to a phenomenon, a noumenon cannot be directly observed. Kant was heavily influenced by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms. Far predating this, the ancient Greek Pyrrhonist philosopher Sextus Empiricus also used phenomenon and noumenon as interrelated technical terms.

    Scientific
    In scientific usage, a phenomenon is any event that is observable, however common it might be, even if it requires the use of instrumentation to observe, record, or compile data concerning it. For example, in physics, a phenomenon may be described by a system of information related to matter, energy, or spacetime, such as Isaac Newton's observations of the moon's orbit and of gravity, or Galileo Galilei's observations of the motion of a pendulum.

    Another example of scientific phenomena can be found in the experience of phantom limb sensations. This occurrence, the sensation of feeling in amputated limbs, is reported by over 70% of amputees. Although the limb is no longer present, they report still experiencing sensations. This is an extraordinary event that defies typical logic and has been a source of much curiosity within the medical and physiological fields.

    So Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are noumenons, not phenomenons.

    What I find interesting in this is that a phenomenon can be personal - that is - experienced personally even if not observed, or manifest to others - like seeing "ghost" or having an apparent physical experience with an unseen force, for example. Hence, it is possible it can be supernatural... or not - but possible.
    How would it be determined, if there is no way to test it.

    Another example...
    Say people, actually thousands of people, witness the ocean part - split in two. No one has an explanation - it totally baffles scientists. It's a phenomenon, but it defies physical explanation, as @osgart puts it. What do we call call the event? Can we call it a natural event because we observed it? Furthermore, if we cannot explain it, we likely can't explain the force behind it.
    What is it?

    Currently, the "fuel" that is speculated to have started the "Big Bang" has never been observed, nor manifest. What do we call this?
    Do we put it in the category which many put the multiverse?
    "
    Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator."
    — Paul Davies, The New York Times, "A Brief History of the Multiverse"
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I was reading up on Quantum Mechanics, and came across what you mentioned.


    Great question you asked. Hmmm.
    Thanks for your answer.
     
  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +2,014
    Yeah when i heard about entanglement the first thing i imagined was some omnipresent force , where everything remembers where everything else is, and is everpresent.

    On' Through the Wormhole', a person wanted to know are there wormholes in space on the matter of entanglement.

    It appears there are a lot of flying spaghetti monster scenarios in science as well as theology.

    Ever hear of the many worlds theory?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    46,686
    Ratings:
    +15,106
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    No. Nor should it. As you point out yourself, the supernatural is pretty much defined by its exception to the scope of science.

    The interesting question would be how else to define or characterize it. A somewhat less interesting but still valid question would be how to determine if it exists at all.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    "many worlds theory"? Another one?:rolleyes:
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Why do you say it? Is the supernatural only defined as an entity?
    I think I realize you are just using singular pronoun, Don worry.
     
    #116 nPeace, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  17. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    46,686
    Ratings:
    +15,106
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    It is a matter of being aware of the concepts.
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,456
    Ratings:
    +2,820
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Did you see this?



    Halfway through this thread, I got to thinking.
    Remember this?
    Quantum Leap is an American science-fiction television series that originally aired on NBC for five seasons, from March 1989 through May 1993. Created by Donald P. Bellisario, it starred Scott Bakula as Dr. Sam Beckett, a physicist who leaps through spacetime during an experiment in time travel, by temporarily taking the place of other people to correct historical mistakes. Dean Stockwell co-stars as Admiral Al Calavicci, Sam's womanizing, cigar-smoking companion and best friend, who appears to him as a hologram.
    The series features a mix of humor, drama, romance, social commentary, and science fiction, and was named one of TV Guide's "Top Cult Shows Ever".

    In the series premiere, Sam has theorized the ability to travel in one's own lifetime and is the lead of the government-funded Project Quantum Leap, operating from a secret laboratory in New Mexico; Al oversees the project for the government. When Al learns that funding for the project is in danger of being pulled because no demonstrable results have come from the project, Sam takes it upon himself to step into the Quantum Leap accelerator to prove the project works and is sent into the past. ...............

    Some things do tend to make you go, hmmm.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. 1AOA1

    1AOA1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    411
    Ratings:
    +14
    "The Supernatural - Science?"

    If that activity called the scientific method is spiritual practice and has that spiritual purpose then supernatural. The life of God is also a part of God and is God.
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,404
    Ratings:
    +2,014
    Kaku is the last person on earth i would think would subscribe to cosmic consciousness. But if someone is going to postulate that cosmic consciousness is real, what next?, eternal life. A creator perhaps!

    The flying spaghetti monsters keep flying across the table.

    Which flying spaghetti monster is correct, and of course, how would you test it?

    I myself think math is a manipulative science. I dont think math is the whole logic on things. If numbers show anything its just one aspect of the whole picture. Perhaps we live in a just so world, where numbers are so precisely accurate, that the math world touches upon the physical world. In other places maybe the math goes awry, because numbers dont reflect anything consistently observable, and maybe numbers are too one dimensional.
    The mathematical world is a sure place til you hit the real world.
    Anyways i got a B in pre calc, what would i know.

    Some things do make you wonder though; life exists just so in an otherwise hostile existence. Given two options: 1) that we are uniquely made 2) we just happen to be with no guiding principle but the laws of physics. I am not willing to throw option 1 off the table so easily.
     
    #120 osgart, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
Loading...