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Featured The Supernatural - Science?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why are we here?
    We are here because of fuel o_O
    Um... Guys what are you laughing at? Do you find that fun...:laughing:

    I listened to the entire talk. Interesting.

    Why is our universe fine-tuned for life? | Brian Greene
    If you like, you can listen to the entire talk - The excitement starts imo, at 11:12
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's not the highlight of this thread. Just thought I'd share. :)
    Question:
    Does science consider what's supernatural?

    Your thoughts. Appreciate it if you say why, you answer as you do.

    Hypothetical
    A hypothesis (plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it. Scientists generally base scientific hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with the available scientific theories.

    Info:
    supernatural
    (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

    ...is that which exists (or is claimed to exist), yet cannot be explained by laws of nature. Examples often include characteristics of or relating to ghosts, angels, gods, souls and spirits, non-material beings, or anything else considered beyond nature like magic, miracles, etc.

    Over time, things once thought to be supernatural such as lightning, seasons, and human senses have been shown to have entirely naturalistic explanations and origins. Some believe that which is considered supernatural will someday be discovered to be completely physical and natural. Those who believe only the physical world exists are called naturalists. Those who believe similarly often maintain skeptical attitudes and beliefs concerning supernatural concepts.

    Multiverse
    Arguments against multiverse theories
    In his 2003 New York Times opinion piece, "A Brief History of the Multiverse", the author and cosmologist Paul Davies offered a variety of arguments that multiverse theories are non-scientific:
    For a start, how is the existence of the other universes to be tested? To be sure, all cosmologists accept that there are some regions of the universe that lie beyond the reach of our telescopes, but somewhere on the slippery slope between that and the idea that there are an infinite number of universes, credibility reaches a limit. As one slips down that slope, more and more must be accepted on faith, and less and less is open to scientific verification. Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith.
    — Paul Davies, The New York Times, "A Brief History of the Multiverse"

    George Ellis, writing in August 2011, provided a criticism of the multiverse, and pointed out that it is not a traditional scientific theory. He accepts that the multiverse is thought to exist far beyond the cosmological horizon. He emphasized that it is theorized to be so far away that it's unlikely any evidence will ever be found. Ellis also explained that some theorists do not believe the lack of empirical testability falsifiability is a major concern, but he is opposed to that line of thinking:
    Many physicists who talk about the multiverse, especially advocates of the string landscape, do not care much about parallel universes per se. For them, objections to the multiverse as a concept are unimportant. Their theories live or die based on internal consistency and, one hopes, eventual laboratory testing.
    Ellis says that scientists have proposed the idea of the multiverse as a way of explaining the nature of existence. He points out that it ultimately leaves those questions unresolved because it is a metaphysical issue that cannot be resolved by empirical science. He argues that observational testing is at the core of science and should not be abandoned:
    As skeptical as I am, I think the contemplation of the multiverse is an excellent opportunity to reflect on the nature of science and on the ultimate nature of existence: why we are here.... In looking at this concept, we need an open mind, though not too open. It is a delicate path to tread. Parallel universes may or may not exist; the case is unproved. We are going to have to live with that uncertainty. Nothing is wrong with scientifically based philosophical speculation, which is what multiverse proposals are. But we should name it for what it is.
    — George Ellis, Scientific American, "Does the Multiverse Really Exist?"

    Extraterrestrial life (ETs)
    Extraterrestrial life, also called alien life (or, if it is a sentient or relatively complex individual, an "extraterrestrial" or "alien"), is [*life that occurs outside of Earth and that probably did not originate from Earth. These hypothetical life forms may range from simple prokaryotes to beings with civilizations far more advanced than humanity.*] The Drake equation speculates about the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The science of extraterrestrial life in all its forms is known as exobiology.

    The concept of extraterrestrial life, and [*particularly extraterrestrial intelligence*], has had a major cultural impact, chiefly in works of science fiction. Over the years, [*science fiction communicated scientific ideas, imagined a wide range of possibilities, and influenced public interest in and perspectives of extraterrestrial life.*] One shared space is the debate over the wisdom of attempting communication with extraterrestrial intelligence. Some encourage aggressive methods to try for contact with intelligent extraterrestrial life. Others—citing the tendency of technologically advanced human societies to enslave or wipe out less advanced societies—argue that it may be dangerous to actively call attention to Earth.

    Intelligent life
    Sapience is closely related to the term "sophia" often defined as "transcendent wisdom", "ultimate reality", or the ultimate truth of things. Sapiential perspective of wisdom is said to lie in the heart of every religion, where it is often acquired through intuitive knowing. This type of wisdom is described as going beyond mere practical wisdom and includes self-knowledge, interconnectedness, conditioned origination of mind-states and other deeper understandings of subjective experience. This type of wisdom can also lead to the ability of an individual to act with appropriate judgment, a broad understanding of situations and greater appreciation/compassion towards other living beings.

    transcendent
    adjective
    beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience.
    surpassing the ordinary; exceptional.


    transcendent (comparative more transcendent, superlative most transcendent)
    1. surpassing usual limits
    2. beyond the range of usual perception
    3. free from constraints of the material world


    If an ET is a more advanced life form, what prevents it from being supernatural - able to break all barriers of "natural" laws - (being completely invisible etc.)?

    Astrobiology
    Astrobiology is a branch of biology concerned with the origins, early evolution, distribution, and future of life in the universe. Astrobiology considers the question of whether extraterrestrial life exists, and how humans can detect it if it does. The term exobiology is similar.

    Astrobiology makes use of molecular biology, biophysics, biochemistry, chemistry, astronomy, exoplanetology and geology to investigate the possibility of life on other worlds and help recognize biospheres that might be different from that on Earth.
    The origin and early evolution of life is an inseparable part of the discipline of astrobiology. Astrobiology concerns itself with interpretation of existing scientific data, and although speculation is entertained to give context, astrobiology concerns itself primarily with hypotheses that fit firmly into existing scientific theories.

    Astronomy
    [*Astronomy is a natural science that studies celestial objects and phenomena.*] It applies mathematics, physics, and chemistry, in an effort to explain the origin of those objects and phenomena and their evolution. Objects of interest include planets, moons, stars, galaxies, and comets; the phenomena include supernova explosions, gamma ray bursts, and cosmic microwave background radiation. [*More generally, all phenomena that originate outside Earth's atmosphere are within the purview of astronomy. A related but distinct subject, physical cosmology, is concerned with the study of the Universe as a whole.*]

    Phenomenon
    A phenomenon is any thing which manifests itself. Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as "things that appear" or "experiences" for a sentient being, or in principle may be so.
    The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with the noumenon. In contrast to a phenomenon, a noumenon cannot be directly observed. Kant was heavily influenced by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms. Far predating this, the ancient Greek Pyrrhonist philosopher Sextus Empiricus also used phenomenon and noumenon as interrelated technical terms.

    Scientific
    [*In scientific usage, a phenomenon is any event that is observable, however common it might be, even if it requires the use of instrumentation to observe, record, or compile data concerning it. For example, in physics, a phenomenon may be described by a system of information related to matter, energy, or spacetime, such as Isaac Newton's observations of the moon's orbit and of gravity, or Galileo Galilei's observations of the motion of a pendulum.

    Another example of scientific phenomena can be found in the experience of phantom limb sensations. This occurrence, the sensation of feeling in amputated limbs, is reported by over 70% of amputees. Although the limb is no longer present, they report still experiencing sensations. This is an extraordinary event that defies typical logic and has been a source of much curiosity within the medical and physiological fields.*]

    Dark matter is so named because it neither absorbs nor emits light and thereforecannot be directly observed. But astronomers know dark matter exists because it interacts gravitationally with the "normal" matter we can see and touch.


    Sorry about the length. I just wanted to simplify it. :)
     
  2. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Sorry about the brevity - I just wanted to simplify it.
     
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  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    You must have heard of eternal inflation and Alan Guth if you follow cosmology. Eternal inflation says that multiverses are inevitable. You can find Alan Guth on Closer to Truth videos as recent as this year. He indicates that everything possible ,no matter how extreme, will happen because multiverses must exist according to eternal inflation.

    Spooky action at a distance in quantum entanglement defies physical description. Is that a candidate for the supernatural?
     
  4. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No.
     
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  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I would just love to know what exactly makes it Supernatural?
     
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  6. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what makes what supernatural?
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I do not believe the supernatural exists as far as science is concerned, When anything unknown is discovered and explained by science it is natural. Anything that is not discovered and unknown it simply remains as unknown as far as science is concerned.
     
    #7 shunyadragon, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    There is no objective verifiable evidence that our universe nor the physical existence that contains our universe is fine tuned.
     
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is objecting... I hope.
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's my question too @Nowhere Man
     
  11. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    That's the question I'm asking. I think people are just making something natural into "supernatural" on the basis that it isn't fully understood so it must be.
     
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  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Interesting way of looking at it. I can't argue against that logic.
    So maybe scientists should stop limiting themselves for convenience then. :)
    Nope. Can't happen.
    "...we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen."

    Here is an interesting article http://theconversation.com/the-limi...-our-understanding-of-the-natural-world-60080
     
    #12 nPeace, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  13. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No. The limits of scientific explanation are not arbitrary or capricious - they are defined by what it is possible to explain by reference to natural processes. Science does not preclude the existence of the supernatural it just, by definition, excludes the supernatural from its own explanatory scheme. And so far, many of the questions that used to be in the domain of theology - the origins of the "heavens and earth", the diversity of life on earth, the seemingly fickle origins of pestilence, tempests, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes,...etc., etc...have all succumbed to perfectly natural explanation as a result of scientific endeavour...at this point it is quite legitimate for science to insist that:

    Because that is exactly the problem - if we allow that God deliberately caused the wind to change and bring quails for the Israelites to sate their hunger for meat or caused the sun to stand still so Joshua could defeat the Amorites - then what really is the use of science? The entire world is as incomprehensible now as it was to the ancient people who composed these fabulous tales if miracles are permitted.

    So, in summary, science does not rule out the supernatural, but the success of science to date in explaining things without recourse to the supernatural pretty well does.
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    And here I thought they went where the evidence leads them.
    Much of what some scientists propose are somewhat um...
    Like Richard Dawkins circular reasoning on higher life forms etc.

    It would seem that they will go where the evidence leads them, only as long as it's not a creator God.
     
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  15. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Would you care to define "um..."?

    Perhaps I can help...

    On the "um..." scale would you say the following are (a) a little bit "um..." (b) somewhat "um..." or (c) very "um..." indeed:

    1. the idea that the entire universe was quite deliberately and purposefully created by God just a few thousand years ago rather than evolving naturally over billions of years
    2. the idea that volcanic activity is really caused by God touching the mountains with his finger and not by natural geological processes as described by plate tectonics
    3. the idea that ill health is (as far as we can tell) most often caused quite naturally by bacteria, viruses and/or genetic defects rather than divine visitation and demon possession

    OK that will do for now - which of these ideas seems to you to be the "um..."est?
     
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  16. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    "Science" is short for "natural science", which is the study of nature. "Supernatural" means outside or beyond nature. Ergo science does not study this.

    Now, there might be an alleged phenomenon that some people claim is supernatural, which science might study. But when it does so, it does it according to the scientific method. This will have two aims: first, to determine whether the alleged phenomenon is a real phenomenon (i.e. reproducible and thus objectively "real") and second, whether or not it is explicable according to the known principles of nature.

    If it turns out that it is real and does not obey known principlesof nature then, as far as science is concerned, it becomes a new natural phenomenon, requiring more research to work out what is responsible for it.

    So the outcome will be to reduce whatever it is to something natural. That is how science works. Those who argue for a supernatural explanation cannot look to science, ever, to provide one.

    P.S. Regarding "dark matter", there is objective evidence that something exists that exerts gravitation but does not emit detectable radiation. The term "dark matter" is a placeholder for this. There is nothing supernatural about it whatever.
     
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  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Calling religious beliefs 'supernatural' is a non religious idea, habit. Not the usual use of the word.

    Just something else with a false association.
     
  18. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    'Supernatural' is a fanciful word used to describe things that occur outside of normal phenomenom.

    For creationists, since God created the universe, religious experiences etc arent supernatural, they are natural to the paradigm of the religious belief.
    So, religious things are simply occurences that may not be common, yet are considered normal, for the paradigm.
     
  19. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    After all that, I am not sure I understand the question.

    Almost by definition, I would say that mainstream science defines what is natural. Science may consider anything possible but it can only address that what the physical senses and instruments perceive. Generally, the 'supernatural' is considered to be things beyond physical perception.
     
  20. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Not really, because the word “supernatural” is specifically defined to exclude scientific study. It’s a tool, even a weapon, used to cut off difficult questions about evidence, hypotheses and logic. In truth though, science can be and often is used to study claims, phenomena and areas described as “supernatural”, may resulting in perfectly natural explanations and understandings and others suggesting even the underlying claims are flawed.

    You see, science can be applied to literally anything. It has no restrictions as a fundamental concept since it’s really just a means for processing information. The only restrictions are in our abilities to apply scientific method, because we’re limited in our ability to access or process sufficient evidence.

    I’m not sure why you flooded the rest of your thread with cut-and-paste segments given most of them don’t have anything to do with the topic.
     
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