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The Supernatural - Science?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
My definition of the term? I don't understand. What do you mean?

I thought I was fairly clear. Your definition above says that something is supernatural if it cannot be explained with the laws of science. But those laws are a moving target and there seems to be no reason why things like ghosts, angels and gods wouldn't be subject to scientific analysis.

So either you take the laws of nature as we understand them now, which would make many phenomena that everyone would accept as natural to be supernatural under the definition, OR you talk about some ultimate laws of science which we don't have access to and thereby cannot determine whether any given phenomena is supernatural or not.

Either way, the definition of supernatural used is useless. Try again.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I thought I was fairly clear. Your definition above says that something is supernatural if it cannot be explained with the laws of science. But those laws are a moving target and there seems to be no reason why things like ghosts, angels and gods wouldn't be subject to scientific analysis.

So either you take the laws of nature as we understand them now, which would make many phenomena that everyone would accept as natural to be supernatural under the definition, OR you talk about some ultimate laws of science which we don't have access to and thereby cannot determine whether any given phenomena is supernatural or not.

Either way, the definition of supernatural used is useless. Try again.
Maybe I am not very bright.
Why is it when I post a definition which I copied and pasted from Wikipedia, I get beaten over the head for it? I am so befuddled.
What is it I am missing? o_O
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe I am not very bright.
Why is it when I post a definition which I copied and pasted from Wikipedia, I get beaten over the head for it? I am so befuddled.
What is it I am missing? o_O

Well, I am pointing out that this may not be the most useful definition. Your posting of it shows a certain amount of support for that definition. Your question depends on the concept of a supernatural, so it is a good idea to clarify what is meant by that term.

I'm sorry if you feel 'beat over the head'. That is certainly not my intention. I was hoping for a more precise definition for a central concept in your question.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well, I am pointing out that this may not be the most useful definition. Your posting of it shows a certain amount of support for that definition. Your question depends on the concept of a supernatural, so it is a good idea to clarify what is meant by that term.

I'm sorry if you feel 'beat over the head'. That is certainly not my intention. I was hoping for a more precise definition for a central concept in your question.
I can only go by what is given secularly. I cannot make up my own.
If I were talking of evolution and I pull up a definition on it, I have to take what I am given, I can't change it to suit me.

Once upon a time, the definition for evolution, included a phrase - from one common ancestor. Now they have removed that. So I can't go and add that on. People here would lynch me for it.

When I post, I use what I believe to be the most accepted - and so I choose Wikipedia. That way... I thought, everyone can be on the same page.

I'm totally shocked. :openmouth:
If I were 90 years old, I'd probably have dropped from a heart attack.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only go by what is given secularly. I cannot make up my own.
If I were talking of evolution and I pull up a definition on it, I have to take what I am given, I can't change it to suit me.

Once upon a time, the definition for evolution, included a phrase - from one common ancestor. Now they have removed that. So I can't go and add that on. People here would lynch me for it.

When I post, I use what I believe to be the most accepted - and so I choose Wikipedia. That way... I thought, everyone can be on the same page.

I'm totally shocked. :openmouth:
If I were 90 years old, I'd probably have dropped from a heart attack.

Well, do you understand the difficulties with the given definition? And why those difficulties might be relevant to your question?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well, do you understand the difficulties with the given definition? And why those difficulties might be relevant to your question?
I considered my question a free and open question, and most persons seemed to handle it very well. In fact, the answers many gave I found to be quite well presented in handling the OP, even though it was lengthy, and perhaps required elimination of things I included.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You must have heard of eternal inflation and Alan Guth if you follow cosmology. Eternal inflation says that multiverses are inevitable. You can find Alan Guth on Closer to Truth videos as recent as this year. He indicates that everything possible ,no matter how extreme, will happen because multiverses must exist according to eternal inflation.

Spooky action at a distance in quantum entanglement defies physical description. Is that a candidate for the supernatural?
I was just going over the OP, and realized I had overlooked your post. Sorry I missed it, because you asked a good question - appropriate to the last few posts.
Based on the definition given for supernatural - or any you choose to use - since there seem to be a problem with the one in the OP... How would you answer your question?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I was just going over the OP, and realized I had overlooked your post. Sorry I missed it, because you asked a good question - appropriate to the last few posts.
Based on the definition given for supernatural - or any you choose to use - since there seem to be a problem with the one in the OP... How would you answer your question?

Any force or power above nature as we know it, or something of a phenomenon known to exist but defies physical explanation is how i define supernatural.

Also if its natural then it must be in accordance with nature.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Any force or power above nature as we know it, or something of a phenomenon known to exist but defies physical explanation is how i define supernatural.

Also if its natural then it must be in accordance with nature.

OK, so you would classify dark matter as supernatural? We don't, as yet, have a physical explanation of it. We know it is there because of its measured effects. Similar things could be said about dark matter.

And, of course, at any one time there are many known phenomena that don't have physical explanations: that's not to say they *won't* be explained, but merely that the research hasn't given a tested explanation yet.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
OK, so you would classify dark matter as supernatural? We don't, as yet, have a physical explanation of it. We know it is there because of its measured effects. Similar things could be said about dark matter.

And, of course, at any one time there are many known phenomena that don't have physical explanations: that's not to say they *won't* be explained, but merely that the research hasn't given a tested explanation yet.

Defy is my key word. A known phenomena that absolutely can not be explained in standard physical terms.

Dark matter is an unknown, so i cant classify it. Dark matter could be weakly interacting with normal matter. I wouldnt classify it.

I have never come across anything supernatural. Perhaps inflation or quantum entanglement might defy physical explanation; a known physical cause.

I dont believe in magic
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Any force or power above nature as we know it, or something of a phenomenon known to exist but defies physical explanation is how i define supernatural.

Also if its natural then it must be in accordance with nature.
Great!
You've made it more interesting.

Phenomenon
A phenomenon is any thing which manifests itself. Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as "things that appear" or "experiences" for a sentient being, or in principle may be so.
The term came into its modern philosophical usage through Immanuel Kant, who contrasted it with the noumenon. In contrast to a phenomenon, a noumenon cannot be directly observed. Kant was heavily influenced by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in this part of his philosophy, in which phenomenon and noumenon serve as interrelated technical terms. Far predating this, the ancient Greek Pyrrhonist philosopher Sextus Empiricus also used phenomenon and noumenon as interrelated technical terms.

Scientific
In scientific usage, a phenomenon is any event that is observable, however common it might be, even if it requires the use of instrumentation to observe, record, or compile data concerning it. For example, in physics, a phenomenon may be described by a system of information related to matter, energy, or spacetime, such as Isaac Newton's observations of the moon's orbit and of gravity, or Galileo Galilei's observations of the motion of a pendulum.

Another example of scientific phenomena can be found in the experience of phantom limb sensations. This occurrence, the sensation of feeling in amputated limbs, is reported by over 70% of amputees. Although the limb is no longer present, they report still experiencing sensations. This is an extraordinary event that defies typical logic and has been a source of much curiosity within the medical and physiological fields.

So Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are noumenons, not phenomenons.

What I find interesting in this is that a phenomenon can be personal - that is - experienced personally even if not observed, or manifest to others - like seeing "ghost" or having an apparent physical experience with an unseen force, for example. Hence, it is possible it can be supernatural... or not - but possible.
How would it be determined, if there is no way to test it.

Another example...
Say people, actually thousands of people, witness the ocean part - split in two. No one has an explanation - it totally baffles scientists. It's a phenomenon, but it defies physical explanation, as @osgart puts it. What do we call call the event? Can we call it a natural event because we observed it? Furthermore, if we cannot explain it, we likely can't explain the force behind it.
What is it?

Currently, the "fuel" that is speculated to have started the "Big Bang" has never been observed, nor manifest. What do we call this?
Do we put it in the category which many put the multiverse?
"
Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator."
— Paul Davies, The New York Times, "A Brief History of the Multiverse"
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Defy is my key word. A known phenomena that absolutely can not be explained in standard physical terms.

Dark matter is an unknown, so i cant classify it. Dark matter could be weakly interacting with normal matter. I wouldnt classify it.

I have never come across anything supernatural. Perhaps inflation or quantum entanglement might defy physical explanation; a known physical cause.

I dont believe in magic
I was reading up on Quantum Mechanics, and came across what you mentioned.
Spooky action at a distance in quantum entanglement defies physical description.

Great question you asked. Hmmm.
Thanks for your answer.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Yeah when i heard about entanglement the first thing i imagined was some omnipresent force , where everything remembers where everything else is, and is everpresent.

On' Through the Wormhole', a person wanted to know are there wormholes in space on the matter of entanglement.

It appears there are a lot of flying spaghetti monster scenarios in science as well as theology.

Ever hear of the many worlds theory?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Question:
Does science consider what's supernatural?

No. Nor should it. As you point out yourself, the supernatural is pretty much defined by its exception to the scope of science.

The interesting question would be how else to define or characterize it. A somewhat less interesting but still valid question would be how to determine if it exists at all.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yeah when i heard about entanglement the first thing i imagined was some omnipresent force , where everything remembers where everything else is, and is everpresent.

On' Through the Wormhole', a person wanted to know are there wormholes in space on the matter of entanglement.

It appears there are a lot of flying spaghetti monster scenarios in science as well as theology.

Ever hear of the many worlds theory?
"many worlds theory"? Another one?:rolleyes:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No. Nor should it. As you point out yourself, the supernatural is pretty much defined by its exception to the scope of science.

The interesting question would be how else to define or characterize it. A somewhat less interesting but still valid question would be how to determine if it exists at all.
Why do you say it? Is the supernatural only defined as an entity?
I think I realize you are just using singular pronoun, Don worry.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Yeah when i heard about entanglement the first thing i imagined was some omnipresent force , where everything remembers where everything else is, and is everpresent.

On' Through the Wormhole', a person wanted to know are there wormholes in space on the matter of entanglement.

It appears there are a lot of flying spaghetti monster scenarios in science as well as theology.

Ever hear of the many worlds theory?
Did you see this?


Halfway through this thread, I got to thinking.
Remember this?
[GALLERY=media, 8576]Quantum_Leap by nPeace posted Jul 12, 2018 at 11:33 PM[/GALLERY]
Quantum Leap is an American science-fiction television series that originally aired on NBC for five seasons, from March 1989 through May 1993. Created by Donald P. Bellisario, it starred Scott Bakula as Dr. Sam Beckett, a physicist who leaps through spacetime during an experiment in time travel, by temporarily taking the place of other people to correct historical mistakes. Dean Stockwell co-stars as Admiral Al Calavicci, Sam's womanizing, cigar-smoking companion and best friend, who appears to him as a hologram.
The series features a mix of humor, drama, romance, social commentary, and science fiction, and was named one of TV Guide's "Top Cult Shows Ever".

In the series premiere, Sam has theorized the ability to travel in one's own lifetime and is the lead of the government-funded Project Quantum Leap, operating from a secret laboratory in New Mexico; Al oversees the project for the government. When Al learns that funding for the project is in danger of being pulled because no demonstrable results have come from the project, Sam takes it upon himself to step into the Quantum Leap accelerator to prove the project works and is sent into the past. ...............

Some things do tend to make you go, hmmm.
 

1AOA1

Active Member
"The Supernatural - Science?"

If that activity called the scientific method is spiritual practice and has that spiritual purpose then supernatural. The life of God is also a part of God and is God.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Did you see this?


Halfway through this thread, I got to thinking.
Remember this?
[GALLERY=media, 8576]Quantum_Leap by nPeace posted Jul 12, 2018 at 11:33 PM[/GALLERY]
Quantum Leap is an American science-fiction television series that originally aired on NBC for five seasons, from March 1989 through May 1993. Created by Donald P. Bellisario, it starred Scott Bakula as Dr. Sam Beckett, a physicist who leaps through spacetime during an experiment in time travel, by temporarily taking the place of other people to correct historical mistakes. Dean Stockwell co-stars as Admiral Al Calavicci, Sam's womanizing, cigar-smoking companion and best friend, who appears to him as a hologram.
The series features a mix of humor, drama, romance, social commentary, and science fiction, and was named one of TV Guide's "Top Cult Shows Ever".

In the series premiere, Sam has theorized the ability to travel in one's own lifetime and is the lead of the government-funded Project Quantum Leap, operating from a secret laboratory in New Mexico; Al oversees the project for the government. When Al learns that funding for the project is in danger of being pulled because no demonstrable results have come from the project, Sam takes it upon himself to step into the Quantum Leap accelerator to prove the project works and is sent into the past. ...............

Some things do tend to make you go, hmmm.

Kaku is the last person on earth i would think would subscribe to cosmic consciousness. But if someone is going to postulate that cosmic consciousness is real, what next?, eternal life. A creator perhaps!

The flying spaghetti monsters keep flying across the table.

Which flying spaghetti monster is correct, and of course, how would you test it?

I myself think math is a manipulative science. I dont think math is the whole logic on things. If numbers show anything its just one aspect of the whole picture. Perhaps we live in a just so world, where numbers are so precisely accurate, that the math world touches upon the physical world. In other places maybe the math goes awry, because numbers dont reflect anything consistently observable, and maybe numbers are too one dimensional.
The mathematical world is a sure place til you hit the real world.
Anyways i got a B in pre calc, what would i know.

Some things do make you wonder though; life exists just so in an otherwise hostile existence. Given two options: 1) that we are uniquely made 2) we just happen to be with no guiding principle but the laws of physics. I am not willing to throw option 1 off the table so easily.
 
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