The Story of Job- God's Bet With the Devil

[Ben Masada]

What do you guys think of the story of Job? An amazing test of faith or God's bet with the Devil? Here is the Wiki link. These two links: History of St. Job and Story of Job are easier to read.

In essence, God and the Devil have a discussion about Job, a most pious man. The Devil tells God, "sure, he's pious because he has it so good."
"Oh yeah?" retorts God, "I'll take away every earthly thing that is important to him including his family and you'll see, he's devoted!" In the end Job stands up to the challenge and God rewards him with a huge heard of livestock and more kids to replace the ones that got killed.

I wonder what would have happened to Job if he had lost faith? The question might be what is the symbolism of this kind of devotion? Should you love God because:

1) He's a good guy who knows what's best for you even though he might torment the hell out of you?
2) He controls your destiny so comply or else?
3) It's just a story designed to emphasis that faith will be rewarded?

I vote for No.3. An even better question, is it truly possible to love someone who holds dominion over your life and demands compliance or else? A worthy God would demand nothing, but allow his children to better themselves and possibly help them along the way, no strings attached.

Side note: 1) God and the Devil have little chats? 2) If God controls everything in existence, then the Devil exists because God created the Devil and must have a use for the Devil. What use would that be, tempting us?

The book of Job is a fictional novel. Job, the personage never existed in reality. The book was written to teach about the role of Israel between God and man on earth. God is not like a man to be persuaded by an outside influence. Besides, Satan does not exist as a being. It is only an emanation to illustrate the evil inclination in man. (Guide for the Perplexed by Moses Maimonides).
Ben

 

[sniper762]

so says opinion

 

[sniper762]

i have written a journal depicting my life, my beliefs and my thoughts. its intended for my posterity. maybe when read thousands of years from now, it too will be concidered as fiction.

 

[Ben Masada]

i have written a journal depicting my life, my beliefs and my thoughts. its intended for my posterity. maybe when read thousands of years from now, it too will be concidered as fiction.

I think Moses Maimonides, who knew a little better than you and I, enjoyed the credibility as a Scholar, Theologian, Phiosopher and a famous Medical Doctor. Perhaps you find too hard to accept this revelation about the book of Job, because your perception of God is too anthropomorphic.
Ben

 

[sniper762]

i dont recall ever stating my view of god. your assumption could not be further from reality

 

[Ben Masada]

i dont recall ever stating my view of god. your assumption could not be further from reality

You did not have to state your view of God. To set Him in a position to be persuaded by nothing which is what Satan is, is to project an anthropomorphic image of God, Who is, in the words of Jesus himself, a pure Spirit, and that the only way to relate to Him is in a spiritual manner. (John 4:24)
Ben

 

[sniper762]

when did i "set Him in a position to be persuaded by nothing"? MAN you are desparate for attention.

 

[Ben Masada]

when did i "set Him in a position to be persuaded by nothing"? MAN you are desparate for attention.

I was giving a reply to the post #181 by Neo Seeker when you broke in. I apologize if I didn't pay attention to the different name of the guy who decided to break into the conversation. In part it is your fault. You should indicate that you are breaking in.
Ben

 

[sniper762]

MY reply was not to you nor your post, but rather to the subject of the op

 

[outhouse]

Um, could you prove this please?

ya do a search for galileo and you can read all about it

as far as the flat earth search that to, theres plenty of passages about the 4 corners of the earth and as well when the church sent columbus over he thought he was going to fall off the edges.

They didnt know any better.

Please dont make me dig up the bibles lies and throw them in here, the OT is to easy to pick on its authenticity and historocity

I believe your pope says not to take the bible literaly or as a history boom.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

i have written a journal depicting my life, my beliefs and my thoughts. its intended for my posterity. maybe when read thousands of years from now, it too will be concidered as fiction.

I don't even believe you exist now.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

ya do a search for galileo and you can read all about it

as far as the flat earth search that to, theres plenty of passages about the 4 corners of the earth and as well when the church sent columbus over he thought he was going to fall off the edges.

They didnt know any better.

Please dont make me dig up the bibles lies and throw them in here, the OT is to easy to pick on its authenticity and historocity

I believe your pope says not to take the bible literaly or as a history boom.

Which Testament is the book of Gallileo in?

Actually there is no Biblical evidence for either a flat earth or a geocentiric universe.

 

[outhouse]

The Bible says: The Earth is flat!

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)
Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)
Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)
Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)
Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

The Bible not only failed to claim that the Earth was egg-shaped, but it also claimed in numerous verses as shown above that the Earth is flat, has Edges, has Four Corners, has Pillars, and has Foundations. As I said above, no unbiased person would deny the obvious and embarrassing quotes above. Only the desperate biased Jews and Christians would.


The Earth has pillars?!
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

The Earth has Edges?!
"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"
"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"
"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"
"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)"

 

[outhouse]

this deals with galileo, please do your homework.

Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text (depending on the translation) stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc.[46]
Galileo defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to those Scripture passages. He took Augustine's position on Scripture: not to take every passage literally, particularly when the scripture in question is a book of poetry and songs, not a book of instructions or history. The writers of the Scripture wrote from the perspective of the terrestrial world, and from that vantage point the sun does rise and set.
By 1616 the attacks on the ideas of Copernicus had reached a head, and Galileo went to Rome to try to persuade the Catholic Church authorities not to ban Copernicus' ideas. In the end, Cardinal Bellarmine, acting on directives from the Inquisition, delivered him an order not to "hold or defend" the idea that the Earth moves and the Sun stands still at the centre. The decree did not prevent Galileo from discussing heliocentrism hypothesis (thus maintaining a facade of separation between science and that church). For the next several years Galileo stayed well away from the controversy. He revived his project of writing a book on the subject, encouraged by the election of Cardinal Maffeo Barberini as Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Barberini was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed the condemnation of Galileo in 1616. The book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission.

• Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
• He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
• His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

as far as the flat earth search that to, theres plenty of passages about the 4 corners of the earth and as well when the church sent columbus over he thought he was going to fall off the edges.

They didnt know any better.

It was well-known going back into ancient times that the Earth was round.

The issue with Columbus was that he got his units wrong: he based his plans on a Latin translation of Alfraganus (Al-Farghani) and took the "miles" in Alfraganus' estimates (which were Arabian miles, about 2 km) as Spanish miles (about 1 km).

This unit error gave Columbus an estimate of the Earth's size that was about half of what it actually is. He was trying to convince people that Asia was so close to Europe that the Azores was the halfway point between Japan and Portugal.

Everyone rejected this because they knew that this was laughably wrong. They knew the distance was actually more like 12,000 km from Europe to Asia, and they knew that no ship could carry enough food and fresh water to make it that far. And they were right - if Columbus hadn't stumbled upon the Americas, he would have died at sea.

 

[outhouse]

It was well-known going back into ancient times that the Earth was round.

Your right about columbus, BUT i want to say 330bc when round earth was known but NOT spread as common knowledge

found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

From Late Antiquity, [250bc ish] and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread

this statement pretty much means the OT were flat earthers


Some authors and artists less prominent in the Church's history directly opposed the round Earth

Diodorus of Tarsus (d. 394) may have argued for a flat Earth based on scriptures; however, Diodorus' opinion on the matter is known to us only by a criticism of it by Photius.[53] Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote that the Earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but "travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall".[54] The Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes (547) in his Topographia Christiana, where the Covenant Ark was meant to represent the whole universe, argued on theological grounds that the Earth was flat, a parallelogram enclosed by four oceans.

 

[smokydot]

Your right about columbus, BUT i want to say 330bc when round earth was known but NOT spread as common knowledge
found this
Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Late Antiquity, [250bc ish] and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread
this statement pretty much means the OT were flat earthers

Not according to their scriptures--Isa 40:22. . .700 years BC.

Some authors and artists less prominent in the Church's history directly opposed the round Earth
Diodorus of Tarsus (d. 394) may have argued for a flat Earth based on scriptures; however, Diodorus' opinion on the matter is known to us only by a criticism of it by Photius.[53] Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote that the Earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but "travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall".[54] The Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes (547) in his Topographia Christiana, where the Covenant Ark was meant to represent the whole universe, argued on theological grounds that the Earth was flat, a parallelogram enclosed by four oceans.

 

[sniper762]

none of the biblical characters EVER believed that the earth was spherical........some modern religions (jw's for one) misinterpret certain scripture to imply that it was though.

 

[smokydot]

none of the biblical characters EVER believed that the earth was spherical........some modern religions (jw's for one) misinterpret certain scripture to imply that it was though.

Then there's Isa 40:22. . .

 

[sniper762]

isa. 40?:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that astretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

the word circle was thought to mean "all encompassing"' or '"all around", like "all around town" or like "a circle of friends" never meant to imply "spherical"