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The Soul

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Super Universe, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    I don't believe in souls at all to be honest. I don't believe in free will either.
    Everything is just cause and effect, and everything follows the laws of physics, and except for the uncertainty of Heisenberg, everything that would ever happen could be calculated with an infinitely complex equation, and all the data available in the universe at a certain point. Our minds are just abstractions of input acquisition and processing to a central system. All I am is my body, there's nothing more to me. And I'm just a medium for input and output. All I use to make decisions is the state of my body, the input I get from my sensory systems and my memories and experiences/instinct stored in my brain.

    Of course, this is a hard thing to accept, as it eliminates all abilities of some organism/human being better than the other, and everyone loves to feel better than something/someone else. Yet I have been able to accept this and cross that boundary. I know I'm not better than anything else, not even better than a child molester or Hitler. I was just lucky to have better genetics, and to have grown up in a better environment, and having better life experiences. It's all just a chain of action/reaction. Most animals are different from us in that way that with them, the system of input/processing/output is much less subtly integrated in the organism. In humans these processes have become so complex and subtly covered up in the abstraction to our 'consciousness' that it would almost seem that we have free will. But we don't.

    Think about it. Whenever you help someone/something, you are doing it for a reason. Everybody is selfish, and all actions are selfish. If you help an old lady to cross the street, you are doing it for the feeling of satisfaction you get afterwards in your body, or for the gratitude in the lady's eyes. If you donate money to certain organisations that help the poor/people with AIDS/whatever you are doing it because you don't like the feeling of being able to help them and not doing it, and also for the feeling of satisfaction. EVERY ACTION done by organisms has a reason directly connected to increasing their personal well being, or in the case of some organisms that sacrifice themselves for their colony/herd/whatever, at least their species. Everything has a reason, and nothing is better, in the original meaning of good and evil, than anything else. You can only say something is better/worse in a certain context, which differs for everyone/everything.

    We live in a world of cause and effect. Scientists' goal is to get as close as they can to the first cause before we hit the last effect. But who knows, there might not be one, and we might be living in a circular chain of cause and effect.

    Don't wast your life on arrogance, pride, hate, hypocrisy, or dishonesty. Just make sure you have a good time before it ends.
     
  2. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    A conscience is "aped". You lost me.

    Someone who has little or no conscience won't have the same internal guards that others with a strong conscience naturally have. Lying, cheating, and stealing are a normal way of life for them.

    My argument is that having a conscience is genetic not the traits that come with not having one.
     
  3. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Have you ever fired a gun into the air in a large city? Do you ever smash windows on parked cars or drop large rocks from the top of buildings over a sidewalk?

    Why not?

    Ever have a dream?

    Ever see matter create itself?

    Science discovers the force at work behind things but science has no theory to it's own creation.

    Must have been someone pretty darned smart to make it all work together like it does.


     
  4. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Since I believe that all of life possesses spirit. I disagree with one of your basic premises, and thus have no need to debate the rest.
     
  5. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Virus' are segments of DNA or RNA. Do you believe a virus has a spirit?

    It may be that all life does have some level of spirituality. Do you think a single celled bacteria has the same or equal spirit to a human?

    Where do you think human sentience comes from?
     
  6. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    If there is a soul, it is a mistake to believe that it is given to us fully created. It is created here, throughout a whole life. And living is nothing else but that long and painful bringing forth.

    - Albert Camus
     
  7. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Yes

    The size of spirit has no bearing on it's "equality" with other spirits.

    Our neurological system in connection to our energetic "spirit" that powers it and the rest of our physical body. The same is said for animals, and plants.
     
  8. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Lilithu: My belief is that a soul is given to us at some point (conception or soon after) but you might be right in that it is only a beginning of something that grows along with the human personality. It's an interesting idea that I'd never thought of before. Thank you.

    Master Vigil: Virus' may have their own spirit. I find it hard to accept but maybe they do. If even a virus' has a spirit then I'm sure that you are correct and all life forms have equal spirits.
     
  9. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    No

    Because I don't want to end up in jail, and I don't want to hurt other people.

    Yes, why would you need a soul to explain dreams? Dreams are just a way for your subconsciousness to settle things and prepare yourself for the next day.

    No, what has that got to do with souls?

    No, but does that mean we need souls to explain things? It may just be too complex to explain for us. Just because we can't explain something, doesn't mean it doesn't have a logical, yet incredibly complex explanation.

    No, it works together like it does, because it has to to remain existant.
     
  10. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Master Vigil: Even if the simplest of life forms has a soul/spirit it does not change any of my premises on the soul.

    I did say that a soul could inhabit an animal if it so desired.
     
  11. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I think the major problem we are having is that we may have a different opinion on what "Spirit" is. My definition of spirit is more along the lines of "energy" than "sentience". I think of "what makes us alive?" And the answer is - the energy that allows our neurons to fire, heart to beat, muscles to contract and expand, etc... I don't believe it is some supernatural essence that only exists in humans because god put it here. I believe it is a natural essence that exists in all things that are "alive" and is the unifying essence of all life. Interestingly enough, I find the spirit of animals and plants much more "spiritually evolved" you might say, than that of humans. I find that because they are more "one" with the universe, Tao, the divine, what have you; than humans are. We "think" we are spiritual, they just ARE.

    But of course, if our basic premises differ we will find difficulty agreeing on this issue.
     
  12. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Because of my definition of Spirit. See post above.
     
  13. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    All this extra stuff you have to face the world, a conscience-you don't want to hurt complete strangers even though they would have no idea who dropped the rock from above? And you have a subconscious that while you are sleeping helps you?

    Do you give yourself the credit for all this neat (conscience/subconscious) stuff? Did you create it? Or maybe you think it just comes along with evolution? And matter not only creates itself perfectly but as it expands and changes back into energy but it also creates time?

    Matter does not create itself and it certainly does not create everlasting sentient energy. The universe abides by many precise laws, so precise that .000001 difference and it could not exist. You think matter did this by itself? Hmm, matter created itself within perfect guidelines and spread time throughout as it went?

    It's your choice what to believe. Sometimes I tell people "Why not have faith anyway? Without a bit of proof? Give Him the benefit of doubt" but you definately need something more.
     
  14. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    For the most part I agree with you but I insert God as the cause behind the spirit. But there is something that gives life to even the smallest of it.

    But you would have to admit that my explanation of the soul gives an explanation for humans not being more "one" with the universe (Because our connection is purposely suppressed to give us a more independant life).
     
  15. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    I wouldn't want to hurt complete strangers because I would see absolutely no reason to, and not believing in souls doesn't mean I would want to purposely kill people for no reason. I think that everyone has a subconsciousness that helps them while sleeping. I don't really know much about the subject but I read somewhere that dreams are a way of your subconsciousness for rearranging and reinterpreting all the data that you have acquired during the day.

    I can't give myself credit for everything, since I'm just a piece of organised dead matter. I don't have any free will, so I can't really give myself credit for any of the choices that I make or the things I achieve. All I can do is make the best of this life that has been given to me and try to amuse myself as much as possible without hurting other people/animals. Surely I did not create all this stuff, and I don't think it's possibly for humans to understand how it came to be, certainly not at this point. But anyhow, this isn't even on topic, since it has absolutely no interconnection to the question as to whether souls exist or not.

    What does this have to do with souls???

    I see no reason to believe in anything supernatural, so I don't. I do see a lot of reasons to believe that everything is just a result by cause and effects, with the laws of physics governing them. Nothing supernatural needed to make things go the way they do.
     
  16. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I see Tao as the cause behind spirit as well. But our definition of "the divine" is probably also very different.

    A possible explanation, yes. But not one that agree with, for I don't think anything is done "purposefully" with our spirits. It just is as it is, and changes as it changes.
     
  17. EiNsTeiN

    EiNsTeiN Boo-h!

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    well...i wont comment on the scientific details u have given...
    but i'd rather say a notice....

    it's obvious that the human nature dont accept anything without making it very complicated and confusing...
    why just dont u agree with soul as a fact of living organisms, something that was given by God to u to differentiate between u and the closet!!
    something that makes u happy cuz u r unique, cuz God gave u his spirit, and will gonna talk it from u one day..

    soul is a fact of life as the time and other human concepts and facts...we can not give a scientific explanation for it...

    And as Qurán says, soul is in the knowledge of God, and we were given too little knowledge...
     
  18. ch'ang

    ch'ang artist in training

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    SU you have no evidence to suppport your thoeries, so far you have explained your opinions with either erroneous science, or other opinions. Come backa dn disscuss this when something better then "People who do things that I think are wrong do not have souls"
     
  19. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Human's didn't make the universe, God did. And He made it quite complex. Atoms form from even smaller particles? Energy that acts like a wave and particle at the same time? This gravity stuff that we can't figure out? Time is space?

    Why don't I just agree with soul as a fact of living organisms, something given by God? I agree 100%. The details I gave you are from my own experiences and the sources I have stated.

    You do not have to agree. You can certainly go on simply believing that some things just "are" and have no explanation that humans could ever understand.

    But then I wonder how the angels would be able to do the things they do if the knowledge of the universe is unknowable? Of course they are angels and we are just human, so why try?

    There once was a mountain that a man tried to climb but he did not make it to the top. And so it was never climbed. A fitting end to humanity.
     
  20. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Evidence for the human soul? Hmm, now where did I put it (looks in the dirty clothes hamper...).

    My support is the Urantia Book, found entirely free online, the Wingmakers, and Lyricus, both found online as well.

    Erroneous science? Uh, how so?

    Opinion, sure. I've noted throughout the ongoing discussion that "I believe" this and "I believe" that.

    As far as the "People who do things I think are wrong do not have souls" part goes... I don't think I am the only one who believes that what BTK did was wrong. I don't think I am the only one who believes what Scott Peterson did to his wife and unborn child was wrong.

    But maybe you disagree with us all.
     
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