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The Soul

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Super Universe, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Sure, it was wrong, but since I don't believe in souls or free will, if "you" (which in fact equals your body) were in his body (in fact eliminating the former "you", and becoming "him"), you would've done the same. Just millions of reacting molecules that determine what you do. There's no soul or anything that has control of it. You do what you do because it's the logical effect of millions of little interacting causes. You seem to think that we have points in our life were we have choices, were we could actually choose to do something different even under the exact same conditions with the exact same body and the exact same past (memories, experiences). Well I'm sorry to say, there isn't. You will ALWAYS take the same choice under the same circumstances, with the same body and the same past.
     
  2. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    The soul is never in control of a human, except in the case of Jesus who remembered His true self.

    I see myself making thousands of choices each day: to shave or not, start with the right side of my face or the left, wear one set of shorts or another, put my socks on left or right foot first, eat a giant salad or get Chinese, hold the fork this way or that...

    You see yourself as having no choice because you didn't ask for this specific body, mind, family, and earth living condition. But you did ask for it, not your human personality that you think you're stuck with but your true self came here to temporarily join with the body you have.

    Your idea avoids responsibility. "It's not my fault" or "I had no choice". Some things are your fault. You are supposed to learn from them and fix them and yourself. You were not created perfect, that's your job.
     
  3. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Yes, but there is no such things as a soul to control these choices. The only thing that determines what choice you will make is the state of your body (including memories and experiences) and the input your sensory systems get from your environment. There is no such thing as true free will, there are only physical factors which will determine the outcome of the decision making process in your brain. Under the same conditions, in the same body, with the same past, you will make the same decision for every problem, every time. There is no such thing as being able to choose between good and evil under the same conditions. You will allways make the same choice.

    I don't have a true self as you describe it. My "true self" is just the transmitting of information from the decision making processes going on in my brain to a certain sensory system with which I can perceive the continuance of that process, which makes it seems as if there is some sort of higher entity inside my body that is making the decisions and guiding the process, but in fact it is just an abstraction to be able to feel the processes and be aware of them from a different perspective. My true self is defined only by my body, and by nothing else. Me=my body. If my body dies, there is no me. There was no me before a sperm cell from my father fused with an egg cell from my mother. As my body changes, I change. All simply because I am my body.

    No it doesn't. Of course something can be my fault, that's a basic premise of the understanding of cause and effect. But to be honest, nobody has a choice in the way you mean it. Sure, you obviously learn from mistakes, but if the right conditions are there and you have the right genetics and state of body, you don't really have a choice but to make certain mistakes. That's why there is no innate good and evil. There is only compatibility and incompatibility.
     
  4. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Sigh... You hold on to your individuality so tightly. You think who you are now is the real you. You see everything through a tiny human window when there is a much better view from above that you could activate. You only have to remember.

    If your simplified universe is enough for you, then that is your choice.
     
  5. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    No, I won't deceive myself. I am not holding on to any individuality, I don't think you really get what I'm trying to say. All I'm saying is that there is no real free will and no real soul, only a body, and there is no doubt in my mind that I'm right.

    There is nothing simple about my universe, I try to explain things through the only medium they are explainable through: the physical. And since there is only the physical, that works mighty fine. I'd rather call your universe of supernatural beliefs simplified, since it doesn't attempt to explain things in an accurate way, but just makes use of fantasised concepts such as souls.
     
  6. Æsahættr

    Æsahættr Active Member

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    A word of advise. Don't begin a thread in a superior tone, when you later go on to say that genetics supports your ideas but "you do not know the exact set of genetics."
    It isn't a case of "not being able to accept" your ideas. You say there is genetic evidence for the soul. Fine. Show it to us. First of all, you will need to find out exactly which genes are responsible. Then, you will need to explain the mechanism by which this process works. How does a gene allow for a soul? Genes give certain characteristics to life forms. I wasn't aware they somehow "allow" for such things as the violation of the conservation laws, nor how they neccesitate something other than the body to be part of a person. Such arguments are part of philosophy, not genetics.
     
  7. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    I'm sure there is no doubt in your mind that you are right. You may have selected to experience life just the way you are, where everything you believe has absolute proof and is logic based.

    Have you ever seen the Titanic? The actual ship? You've seen movies about it, you may have seen before and current pictures of it but you still have never actually been there. Yet you probably believe it exists. How about Pluto? Have you ever seen it for yourself? Ever seen an atom? A virus?
     
  8. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    It's not a superior tone, no one person is overall superior to anyone else in this world. One may be superior in one or a few ways but no one seems to have a monopoly on it all.

    The first sentence is a warning to people like you. It means "Enter at your own risk."

    My writing is not for you, it's for those who are searching for these specific answers that I have found. It's also for those like me who wish to share their experiences and participate in a way that improves the theory. There are a few who I have connected with.

    Show it to you? Since you are the one who needs proof for things, where is yours that proves this wrong?

    How does a gene allow for a soul? As I said, all life can host a soul. It's up to the soul to decide where it wishes to go. Souls prefer humans because we have more personality than instinctual life.

    Do you believe that you have similar genetics to your parents? Really? Do you know the exact sequence of genes that proves it?

    You have your feet set into concrete and you're determined that nothing is going to move you so why would I waste my time with you?

    Your life is your choice.
     
  9. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Yes, and it is possible to live like this without ever needing anything else. If I would choose to experience life with the supernatural, I would just have to stop attempting to explain things and make things up instead.

    I believe it exists because I have seen more than sufficient evidence that each of these things exist. Yet I have yet to see one piece of evidence or even have one experience that would suggest the existance of souls.
     
  10. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Not really, we are following where the only road is taking us. You are bashing your head against concrete walls convinced that you can walk through them.
     
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  11. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Even though you feel there is nothing supernatural in existence you are here attempting to explain things as you see them. Making up things as well.

    Google for the human soul-74,000,000 hits

    Google for the Titanic-36,700,000 hits

    The evidence for a soul and the evidence for the Titanic are the same, you can touch neither, you can feel neither. The difference is that the Titanic has no meaning to you, it affects you not whether it exists or is a complete lie.

    If the soul is real then God is also and you just can't accept that.

    Even with proof that most others would accept you would still refuse to believe in an everlasting soul or God or anything other than your own self.

    But this is your choice. You set your guidelines. You choose your course.
     
  12. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Bashing my head against concrete walls?

    You think concrete walls contain me? Hehe.

    It may contain the flesh but what does that have to do with me? The only thing that contains me are the ends of the universe.
     
  13. Æsahættr

    Æsahættr Active Member

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    Sorry, what "risk" am I at? If you have "specific answers," then surely you must be able to explain those answers. I could say I have an answer for any problem, but you'd want me to fully exlain it. You are horribly abusing science, you just scatter in a few mentions of genetics into your ramblings to try and give them a sense of scientific support, yet you refuse to go into any further detail.

    I don't need to prove it. I'm not making a positive assertation. To take a well used example, do you believe that there is a teapot orbitting the Sun? If not, prove to me that it doesn't exist. If you can't prove that it doesn't, then by your logic you cannot claim so.

    No! You haven't answered the question! I asked how a gene allows for a soul. "All life can host a soul" is not an answer, it's just dismissing the question. If you asked me how genes allow for a child to have a certain eye colour, I would be able to give a simple explanation of the mechanisms involved (don't ask for anything more complicated, I'm not an expert, but I reckon I could do eye colour.) Now, you are claiming that genes "allow" for a soul. I am now asking you to explain the mechanism.Where abouts in the body actually is this soul then? Is is scattered throughout?


    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Thinking that my genes are similar to my parents is not a claim that would be seen as surprising by anyone. It wouldn't change anyone's philosophy, it wouldn't change our current knowledge of science. However, if there was evidence for the soul in genes, that would make a lot of our science wrong. It would also change a lot of people's outlook on life. Therefore, because you are making such an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence. You certainly need some evidence, and as yet you have not offered any.

    You misunderstand skeptics. My feet are not set in concrete, I just need some kind of evidence before I accept a proposition that changes my entire outlook on life.

    Oh, and btw...


    Incorrect. You can see plenty of records of the Titanic. True, you may not have actually seen the Titanic itself, but you assume that it exists, that it sunk, the whole story etc. because to assume otherwise would mean to assume that a giant conspiracy is taking place. That's another extraordinary claim. There is nothing suspicious about the claim that the Titanic exists, because the people who tell you that it does are perfectly willing to show you evidence if you want. They're not evasive. You on the other hand, are very evasive and very unwilling to give any sort of evidence whatsoever.
     
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  14. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Google for "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" - 2.360.000 hits
    Google for "atomic absorption spectroscopy device" - 2 hits

    So I guess according to your logic, there's more chance of there being a Flying Spaghetti Monster than a device to record spectra of molecules to identify them, used by scientists all over the world every day, eh?



    No they're not the same. There is no evidence whatsoever for a soul. There is a plethora of pictures and literature of the Titanic, and historical records. In the same way of following logic you could just ditch all of religion, since all they rely on is old books.

    This doesn't even have anything to do with any god. Indeed, I don't believe in any gods, but, regardless on if there were gods or not, I also do not believe in a soul, because all of the attributes people ascribe as being originated from a soul, can be physically explained, so this eliminates the need for a soul to explain these things. The moment somebody shows me something that could only have occured if there was something supernatural in humans, a soul, then I would believe in it. But that will never happen. There is a physical explanation for everything, it's just up to you if you want to do the effort to try and find it, or say, oh hell, let's just say that there's a soul. Of course, the fact that you would have to give up your admiration for things you've done and decisions you've made also plays a big part. I guess that's too big a step for most people, who think they're somehow better than others by what they do and achieve.

    Show me any proof? There is none!
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    So,what is the bibles view point of the soul and spirit, what do these terms really mean?
    WHEN you hear the terms "soul" and "spirit," what comes to your mind? Many believe that these words mean something invisible and immortal that exists inside us. They think that at death this invisible part of a human leaves the body and lives on. Since this belief is so widespread, many are surprised to learn that it is not at all what the Bible teaches. What, then, is the soul, and what is the spirit, according to God’s Word?​


    "SOUL"​
    AS USED IN THE BIBLE

    First, consider the soul. You may remember that the Bible was originally written mainly in Hebrew and Greek. When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ne´phesh or the Greek word psy·khe´. These two words occur well over 800 times in the Scriptures, and the New World Translation consistently renders them "soul." When you examine the way "soul" or "souls" is used in the Bible, it becomes evident that this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
    Let us consider some scriptures that present these three different senses.
    PEOPLE....... "In Noah’s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water." (1 Peter 3:20) Here the word "souls" clearly stands for people—Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. Exodus 16:16 mentions instructions given to the Israelites regarding the gathering of manna. They were told: "Pick up some of it . . . according to the number of the souls that each of you has in his tent." So the amount of manna that was gathered was based upon the number of people in each family. Some other Biblical examples of the application of "soul" or "souls" to a person or to people are found at Genesis 46:18; Joshua 11:11; Acts 27:37; and Romans 13:1
    ANIMALS. In the Bible’s creation account, we read: "God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.’ And God went on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.’ And it came to be so." (Genesis 1:20, 24) In this passage, fish, domestic animals, and wild beasts are all referred to by the same word—"souls." Birds and other animals are called souls at Genesis 9:10; Leviticus 11:46; and Numbers 31:28.

    Life​
    as a person. Sometimes the word "soul" means one’s life as a person. Jehovah told Moses: "All the men who were hunting for your soul are dead." (Exodus 4:19) What were Moses’ enemies hunting for? They were seeking to take Moses’ life. Earlier, while Rachel was giving birth to her son Benjamin, "her soul was going out (because she died)." (Genesis 35:16-19) At that moment, Rachel lost her life. Consider also Jesus’ words: "I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep." (John 10:11) Jesus gave his soul, or life, in behalf of mankind. In these Bible passages, the word "soul" clearly refers to life as a person. You will find more examples of this sense of "soul" at 1 Kings 17:17-23; Matthew 10:39; John 15:13; and Acts 20:10.​

    A further study of God’s Word will show you that nowhere in the entire Bible are the terms "immortal" or "everlasting" linked with the word "soul." Instead, the Scriptures state that a soul is mortal, meaning that it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) Therefore, the Bible calls someone who has died simply a "dead soul."—Leviticus 21:11.

     
  16. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    I don't know if you are at any risk but many others can't accept that the universe is inherently mechanical. It is based on a set of rules that are unchanging. There are scientific explanations for how everything works. There is an explanation for how Jesus fed thousands from a single basket of fish and bread.

    Many people are simply afraid to examine the rules that control the universe because they think it provides proof that God does not exist. You can see from a previous post that some people want some things to be unknowable. God created the universe as it is. There is nothing that can disprove God.

    I have provided more of an explanation of the nature of the soul than religion has and religion has been around for thousands of years but even so my explanation does not go far enough for you.

    What more specific details do you want? The exact DNA sequence that allows for a soul? I told you, I don't know it. Our great geneticists don't know it either. Maybe in 100 years, maybe in 500 we will discover it?

    Do you know how many iron molecules are in the Eiffel Tower? Probably not. So you could never go on about how beautiful it is and where it stands and the view from it. Not knowing every possible detail does not change the Eiffel Tower one bit. It still exists.

    You are someone who needs absolute proof for things that are as yet unprovable. It is your choice what to believe, you may choose the teapot orbiting the sun, I will choose the everlasting soul.

    Genes that code for life allow for a soul. Perhaps a soul may inhabit a lowly virus but I doubt it. What interest would there be for the soul?

    Where is the soul? I believe it lies in the crown chakra but perhaps the hypothalamus or the thalamus that controls consciousness. There are also six other chakra's descending through the human body. Maybe it is throughout us, a combination of all the chakras?

    Extraordinary claims? You'd think I was the first to assert that humans have an everlasting soul. None of this is new for those who already have faith in God. You can't handle it because you use science to refute God's existence and now it's getting to the point where science is turning against you.

    Oh no, what are you going to do if God really does exist? You'll have to stop worshipping yourself! Even with absolute proof of God's existence there are those who will deny Him. It's your choice.

    Exactly how would evidence of the human soul found in genes make any of our science wrong? And do you think our science has everything correct? I wonder why they can't figure this gravity thing out? I wonder why they can't give life to a rock? Why can't they create matter? There are incredible discoveries ahead.

    Your feet ARE set in concrete. No evidence of God will EVER change your life. You are living the life you want. God cannot change it, He will not. This is what your soul wants to experience. A life experience without God. Souls come directly from God, they know Him. This is the only way for souls to experience complete individuality.

    What would I do if I truly had my own free will for once, away from Father's watchful eye? And you wonder why people run down the street naked sometimes. You wonder why teenagers rush to experience as much life as possible in the shortest amount of time?

    Assume the Titanic existed? What evidence can they show me? Some old books? There is an old book titled "Moby Dick" but that doesn't prove there really was an Ahab and a white whale. They can show me some old pictures? Sure but there were many giant ocean liners in those days and any name can be painted on any ship.

    Sure most of us assume the whole thing about the Titanic was true, and 95% of the world also believes in God. The other 5% somehow don't need proof of the Titanic to believe in it, they don't need to know exactly how many iron molecules are in the Eiffel Tower, but when it comes to a Creator of the universe they suddenly need physical proof. As if the universe isn't proof enough?

    I am not unwilling to give you evidence, you simply want more than I have. I explained what I know and pointed out what I don't know. Nothing is ever going to change your mind so why are you wasting my time?

    For me there is no doubt but that is because of my life experiences. My eyes were opened and I cannot now deny God. It's not possible. All the other answers were not given to me but over the years I have found comfort in some explanations so I offer them to others who might also be comforted.

    The universe is mechanical. God is not throwing switch's and adjusting dials, monitoring gauges. It has it's own rules that keep it going.
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    THE​
    "SPIRIT" IDENTIFIED

    Let us now consider the Bible’s use of the term "spirit." Some people think that "spirit" is just another word for "soul." However, that is not the case. The Bible makes clear that "spirit" and "soul" refer to two different things. How do they differ?
    Bible writers used the Hebrew word ru´ach or the Greek word pneu´ma when writing about the "spirit." The Scriptures themselves indicate the meaning of those words. For instance, Psalm 104:29 states: "If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ru´ach], they expire, and back to their dust they go." And James 2:26 notes that "the body without spirit [pneu´ma] is dead." In these verses, then, "spirit" refers to that which gives life to a body. Without spirit, the body is dead. Therefore, in the Bible the word ru´ach is translated not only as "spirit" but also as "force," or life-force. For example, concerning the Flood in Noah’s day, God said: "I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force [ru´ach] of life is active from under the heavens." (Genesis 6:17; 7:15, 22) "Spirit" thus refers to an invisible force (the spark of life) that animates all living creatures.
    The soul and the spirit are not the same. The body needs the spirit in much the same way as a radio needs electricity—in order to function. To illustrate this further, think of a portable radio. When you put batteries in a portable radio and turn it on, the electricity stored in the batteries brings the radio to life, so to speak. Without batteries, however, the radio is dead. So is another kind of radio when it is unplugged from an electric outlet. Similarly, the spirit is the force that brings our body to life. Also, like electricity, the spirit has no feeling and cannot think. It is an impersonal force. But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies "expire, and back to their dust they go," as the psalmist stated.
    Speaking about man’s death, Ecclesiastes 12:7 states: "The dust [of his body] returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it." When the spirit, or life-force, leaves the body, the body dies and returns to where it came from—the earth. Comparably, the life-force returns to where it came from—God. (Job 34:14, 15; Psalm 36:9) This does not mean that the life-force actually travels to heaven. Rather, it means that for someone who dies, any hope of future life rests with Jehovah God. His life is in God’s hands, so to speak. Only by God’s power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that a person may live again.​
    How comforting it is to know that this is exactly what God will do for all of those resting in "the memorial tombs"! (John 5:28, 29) At the time of the resurrection, Jehovah will form a new body for a person sleeping in death and bring it to life by putting spirit, or life-force, in it. What a joyful day that will be!
     
  18. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    I did not assert that more Google hits meant more proof. You quoted my words "The evidence for a soul and the evidence for the Titanic are the same". See my post above for the continuation of that.

    To you the evidence for the FSM and God are the same.

    YOU can believe in the FSM. I choose God.


    Old books? When you go to a doctor what do you think he relies on? When you drive across a bridge or go up in a tall building what do you think the engineers relied on? When you fly in an airplane? Everything we know is based upon prior learned knowledge passed down to us over thousands of years worth of 'old books'.

    The moment someone shows you something supernatural? You look for it in others when it can only be found inside yourself. You think you are alone because that is your desire. You love yourself. You love your individuality and you are afraid of losing it.

    You think that if there is a God He is going to steal it from you when it is He that gave it to you in the first place.

    Why are you here? This is a religious forum. Are you here to demand proof that God exists from a bunch of wayward religious folk? There is no proof of such things. There is only faith.

    So I say to you "Go about your life and do not waste anymore time."
     
  19. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Dear Miss May. The goal is not the earth. This is but the beginning for us. Heaven awaits us all but it is far from here and we have so much more to learn before we get there.
     
  20. Æsahættr

    Æsahættr Active Member

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    Super Universe, before I respond in detail to your last post, can we establish something first. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:
    You should only believe in the existance of something if there is evidence, in any form, of its existance.
    (Notice that I did not say proof.)




    I agree that there are scientific explanations for how everything works. Perhaps you could give me the scientific explanation for how Jesus fed thousands from a single basket of fish and bread?



    No, I do not necessarily want the exact DNA sequence. However, I do want some evidence of any sort, that shows how genes seem to suggest that there is a soul? You say you have provided this evidence, but you have not. Perhaps I have missed it amongst your babble. I would be cynical and suggest that you are simply evading giving any, but I will refrain from that cynicism. So please, enlighten me and clearly show me the genetic evidence for the soul. (not proof, evidence)



    Yet again, you confuse proof and evidence. I do not need absolute proof for everything. I do not believe that absolute proof exists in the real world. All I want is evidence. I do not believe in the orbitting teapot because there is no evidence for it. You claim there is evidence for the everlasting soul. Then show it to me!



    Again, evidence please. Here, you need theoretical evidence. As I have asked before, what is the mechanism? Explain to me how genes that code for life allow for a soul. Repeating the statement again and again is not an explanation.

    Once again, evidence please. Give us something that we would expect to see in the area where the soul is, that cannot be explained by any other means. Then, we can look there and see if your prediction is correct.

    Let's correct a few of your assumptions about me.
    1) I do not worship myself. Why would I? I don't worship anything.
    2) I would love for there to be an everlasting soul. I can't say that I'd love for there to be a god, but I have no desire whatsoever to die, and I would be delighted if I thought that I can live forever. However, I make by beliefs by evidence, not by want I want to be true. I would love for you to prove me wrong on the subject of a soul. You just need some evidence of any sort.

    Oh, and my use of the term "extraordinary" didn't mean "something that no-one else has suggested." I meant it in the sense that it would overturn a lot of current science if it were true. General relativity was in this sense an extraordinary claim. It stood at odds with a lot of scientific assumptions at the time. However, the overwhelming evidence in favour of the theory meant that it was adopted, and the assumptions it stood against were dropped. You are making a similar claim. If there is a soul, then large parts of biology and medicinal science as we understand them are wrong. That means, that in order to get people to accept your suggestion, you need evidence. You need to make predictions. I think a good place to start will be to tell us what we would expect to see in an area of the body where the soul is being kept, that would not be expicable without a soul.
     
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