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The so-called Freedom

SLAMH

Active Member
I have come across many threads which discuss different topics. All what they share in common is nothing, but just one word "Freedom". The term itself is used in confusing ways and at the same it doesn't have a finite dimensions to be defined within. Subjective, but not objective and uncontrolled. Dependent upon cultures, yet even within one culture is being controversial and dialectical. This how freedom is, for one to achieve it, the freedom of someone else has to be eliminated.

Is freedom just a radical theory ? if yes, then how it can be modified and altered ?

It even makes me wonder, is it freedom when someone is tied to the thought of others ?, worrying how it will be perceived and judged even if there is no any law that restricts physical freedom.

Is it freedom of speech when it hurts and insults others ?, just someone has no intention to criticize reasonably and coherently, but with the goal of offending them.


I'm really confused with this, I just wan to see how others view the meaning of freedom.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. We are relatively free. Government and society remove that freedom or apply limits through constitutions and laws. We cannot do much about that, other than to revolt or drop out of society, move to the Amazon. So freedom must now be given or we must live within the limits imposed on us.

Does religion remove freedom? The fact that Jewish and Muslims are told not to eat pork, is that a loss of freedom?

First we must decide if there really was any freedom in our spiritual life to start with, is there really any free will or are we obliged to align ourselves with the word of God in order to have a better spiritual life?
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
I have come across many threads which discuss different topics. All what they share in common is nothing, but just one word "Freedom". The term itself is used in confusing ways and at the same it doesn't have a finite dimensions to be defined within. Subjective, but not objective and uncontrolled. Dependent upon cultures, yet even within one culture is being controversial and dialectical. This how freedom is, for one to achieve it, the freedom of someone else has to be eliminated.

please explain why freedom for some would require the elimination of freedom of others? i dont see this to be the case.

It even makes me wonder, is it freedom when someone is tied to the thought of others ?, worrying how it will be perceived and judged even if there is no any law that restricts physical freedom.

i dont understand what you mean by this

Is it freedom of speech when it hurts and insults others ?, just someone has no intention to criticize reasonably and coherently, but with the goal of offending them.

freedom of speech is on the few things i hold as sacred. the threat to one person's freedom of speech is a threat to everyone's freedom of speech. for instance, i hate nazis and everything they stand for, but if they were denied their freedom of speech, how could i guarantee my own freedom of speech? once the denial of freedom of speech, even of only a few, becomes a legitimate political concept, then everyone's freedom is threatened. being insulted or offended is a guaranteed result of freedom of speech. theres always someone insulted or offended by something, denying freedom of speech for this reason would only result in no freedom of speech.
 

SLAMH

Active Member
please explain why freedom for some would require the elimination of freedom of others? i dont see this to be the case.

Like for example, someone would like to walk around naked in public, while another doesn't want to see it in this condition. Both argue that its their freedom whether for to be nudist in public or for not seeing this in public.

Like when someone wants to protect the creation of its mind, the argument will revolve around the freedom. Those who reject the law of intellectual property that gives the right for the original creator to control how its work will be distributed, will use the term freedom of knowledge to justify their objection to this law.

These just are examples for how that for the freedom of someone to be fulfilled, the freedom of someone else has to be eliminated or cancelled.

Whether you agree with this or not, I'm not intending to start any argument. I just want to see what Freedom means to others.

i dont understand what you mean by this

Like when you do something, not because you like to do it, but rather because the society around you will reject you if you don't do it. Is not that kind of oppression even if we assume that there is no any law that force you to do it.

Anyway, I'm just looking to explore the topic in depth.
 
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bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
For me

Freedom is a belief not a thing.

As long as you believe you are free then you are? No one is really free. You are a slave to nature and society. Only death offers freedom from both.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I have come across many threads which discuss different topics. All what they share in common is nothing, but just one word "Freedom". The term itself is used in confusing ways and at the same it doesn't have a finite dimensions to be defined within. Subjective, but not objective and uncontrolled. Dependent upon cultures, yet even within one culture is being controversial and dialectical. This how freedom is, for one to achieve it, the freedom of someone else has to be eliminated.

Is freedom just a radical theory ? if yes, then how it can be modified and altered ?

It even makes me wonder, is it freedom when someone is tied to the thought of others ?, worrying how it will be perceived and judged even if there is no any law that restricts physical freedom.

Is it freedom of speech when it hurts and insults others ?, just someone has no intention to criticize reasonably and coherently, but with the goal of offending them.


I'm really confused with this, I just wan to see how others view the meaning of freedom.
Freedom is a very abstract concept, yes. There are many aspects to it and many different ways to look at it. Just like you can say that justice is subjective I guess you can say freedom is.

For me I guess freedom means that we are allowed to be who we are, allowed to express our individuality, even if it is strange or weird. But there are also other forms of freedom like freedom of speech (and about insults, yes, we are free to insult... but that does not mean we should), and I do not believe freedom for one person has to mean someone elses freedom is taken away.

In the end no one can be free in every way. Since we live in social contexts there are some things we should not do and that should even be illegal (like murder or theft). But this does not make freedom less important, we just have to find a good balance :).
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I have come across many threads which discuss different topics. All what they share in common is nothing, but just one word "Freedom". The term itself is used in confusing ways and at the same it doesn't have a finite dimensions to be defined within. Subjective, but not objective and uncontrolled. Dependent upon cultures, yet even within one culture is being controversial and dialectical. This how freedom is, for one to achieve it, the freedom of someone else has to be eliminated.

Is freedom just a radical theory ? if yes, then how it can be modified and altered ?

It even makes me wonder, is it freedom when someone is tied to the thought of others ?, worrying how it will be perceived and judged even if there is no any law that restricts physical freedom.

Is it freedom of speech when it hurts and insults others ?, just someone has no intention to criticize reasonably and coherently, but with the goal of offending them.


I'm really confused with this, I just wan to see how others view the meaning of freedom.

I don't think freedom is a "radical theory," it's something that every human being on earth should be able to enjoy.

You bring up public nudity as a clash between a nudist's freedom and pedestrians' freedom, but this is just sort of the same thing as if someone were standing on a street corner yelling with a bullhorn at people "@#%#$ you! %($& you!" they would probably get ticketed by police or asked to move along for disturbing the peace.

However people are free to go to places like nude beaches and private homes to be nude if they wish without fear of the law because the only reason they can't do so in public is mostly because of children.

Consider something like a TV station, radio station or internet site. People can broadcast or post whatever material they want (with a minor exception for daytime public TV, which tones down for children) because the idea is that if something offends you on it, you should just change the channel -- not go using the government to strip someone's rights to broadcast what they want just because you don't like it.

As for the freedom of speech and insults, it's impossible to prevent speech that insults people and it's impossible to define a line to separate it. There will always be someone that's insulted by something, and if a law were passed which banned the freedom to insult then all comedians would be out of a job, all movies and video games and books would become very dull (as nearly any of them can be claimed by almost anyone to be insulting), and so on.

People should have the right to voice their opinions. For instance the Fred Phelps clan voices their opinion that God is angry at America for being so light-handed with homosexuality and that they believe our soldiers dying in Iraq/Afghanistan is the result of God's wrath.

Is that insulting? OF COURSE! But do they have the right to voice their opinion? Yes, because if they didn't, what prevents someone from taking *my* right to voice *my* opinion? Who decides what's insulting and what's not?

How do you define an "insult" from an opinion?

For instance, what if someone had the opinion that the prophet Mohammed was (enter something incredibly insulting here)? Could they voice that opinion, or would they be oppressed by some anti-free speech law that "protects from insults?" What's the difference between an insult and a genuine opinion/argument?

It's best to protect all speech (unless it directly incites violence, like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater or saying "GO BLOW UP THE WHITE HOUSE," which would be illegal) because people have a choice how to react: they choose to get offended or to just ignore it, or to fight back with a counterargument. So there's no excuse to strip someone's right to express their opinion, ever.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Obviously "freedom" is just a word like "God" is just a word. We define it and give it context.

For myself and most of those in America, Freedom means doing what you like as long as it dosen't hurt anyone else or incite anyone else to hurt others. But then we get into defining what "hurt" means. It need to be looked at with common sense and in context.

If you just make inflammatory and offensive speech as long as you don't call for violence or couple it with personal harassment, the problem is strictly with those who are being offended against since they are just words.

The secular/neutral government and society should not be there to cuddle and nurture your personal biased beliefs. If you think that then your believes must not be that strong to begin with. Maybe find something that will give you a stronger back bone and more emotional support.
 

SLAMH

Active Member
How do you define an "insult" from an opinion?

What's the difference between an insult and a genuine opinion/argument?

If the questions are for me to answer, then I'd apologize for not doing so.
I'm just afraid that if I did, we might lose the track of the thread.
I'm just trying to exchange the logic, so I get better understanding to the meaning of 'Freedom'.

Your comment is appreciated.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
From the Baha'i scriptures:

122 “Consider the pettiness of men’s minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
123 “Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.
124 “Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.
125 “Say: True liberty consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will, that pervadeth all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the dominion of earth and heaven.”

--The Book of Laws, pp. 63-64.


Peace,

Bruce
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
"True liberty consisteth in man's submissions unto My commandments" "We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depth of ignorance.".
Thanks Bruce, that is an interesting insight.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
simply put there are varying levels of freedom.

at one end of the ladder

we do not have the freedom to live forever
we dont have freedom to break laws without possible actions against us.


at the other end

I have the freedom to hop on a racing motorcyle and ride through the mountains. or go skiing
I have the freedom to pretty much say and wear what I want.


only so many rungs on a ladder will be givin to any culture.

when YOUR governement steals rungs away you have less freedom.

Thos ecountries with the most rungs have the most freedom
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Freedom is indeed a subjective term given many definitions. Freedom is always relative. As for legal freedom, the Constitution grants us certain rights -- freedoms to behave in certain ways -- and yet it also limits freedom in other ways. Thus, it is a relative concept.

Ultimately, I don't believe in any kind of freedom, but it is a useful concept in law, even if our "freedoms" limit us in other ways.

Freedom has little meaning if it isn't defined, and thus limited, in some way. So you may have freedom of speech or freedom of religion, but your freedoms end where mine begin. Certain limits are in place so that your freedoms don't infringe on mine. Meaning, for example, that you are free to practice my religion, and I'm free to practice my own, but I am not free to keep you from practicing your faith even if my faith demands me to. This limitation necessarily exists to protect all of our freedoms, so I can't use my rights to infringe on yours.

Without certain limits like this, freedom would not have much meaning.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
And, if one doesn't find freedom a confusing concept, I doubt they really understand it.

I agree that freedom can be a problematic concept. I don't think there's any political philosopher or political scientist who would argue that freedom is a simple concept.

To illustrate how problematic can be the concept of freedom: One often quoted, general rule of thumb is that "my rights end where yours begin". But what does that mean in practice? If it were easy to decide what that meant in practice, there would be no need for law courts to spend so much time on it.
 
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