The scriptures are hard to understand

[TrueBeliever37]

Yet, if the 9/11 terrorists used the EXACT same method... that is they prayed and sought out God with FAITH and were convinced that God showed Himself to be very real to them. So real in fact that they believed that He wanted them to sacrifice themselves for God's greater glory. This is an example of people using FAITH to ascertain the TRUTH. In this example, do YOU believe that faith was a reliable means of determining the truth? DID God want these men to fly planes into buildings filled with people?

You just admitted that FAITH does NOT prove you have the truth, which is another way of saying that FAITH is NOT a reliable path to truth. What you're saying is that FAITH worked in MY case (for which we have no evidence other than your word - just like we have no evidence that the terrorists actually communed with God, other than their word that they did). That's like saying that flipping a coin is a RELIABLE path to the truth. Let's say we ask what is 1+1. I flip a coin, heads means that 1+1=2 and tails means that 1+1=3. If I flip the coin and it comes up heads (1+1=2) the correct answer, can I then conclude that flipping a coin is a RELIABLE path to the truth? NO, because the next time I flip the coin it has a 50/50 chance of coming up tails.

Lastly, if a terrorist is capable of using faith to convince themselves of something that is not true, how can you be absolutely certain that you aren't ALSO using faith to convince yourself of something that is not true? Clearly a person can use faith to convince themselves of virtually ANYTHING. How can you be certain that your faith hasn't caused you to believe in something that isn't true? You say that God has shown Himself to you many times, that's why you have no doubts. But OBVIOUSLY the terrorists ALSO felt that God had shown Himself to them many times... they were so very certain of it that they were willing to bet their lives on it. This suggests that using FAITH can cause people to have experiences that convince them that they are communicating with God when they actually are NOT. How can you be so certain that you're immune from this phenomenon?

I have already agreed that just because you have faith in something doesn't make it true. I think the faith the terrorist have is because of faith in the writings of their book, not because of thinking God has personally dealt with them. (But I could be wrong.) Maybe when I have more time I will share a few ways that God has shown himself to be real to me. You can be the judge. Of course if you don't believe what I say, or think I am lying, then it will do no good. Would I just be wasting my time?

 

[Kenny]

None of the apostles ever taught a trinity. The word is nowhere mentioned in the scriptures. Never did they say there were 3 persons in the Godhead.

I disagree. But, as we agreed, there are scriptures that aren't black and white. Would 3 manifestations help you any? Like we, as humans, have three manifestations, each different, yet together one?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Well now you're expanding the concept of faith. I agree with that. Even you have faith whether you want to admit it or not. Faith is simply trust in something or someone. So that's all it is. You could have faith in a cause or an idea.

You seem to have the idea that the only way people will be martyrs is because they must have had some profound spiritual experience. But the fact is that many people willingly die for many reasons. There are suicides all the time. Just because people died for their faith does not alone prove they had any real reason for that faith in the first place.

True faith is not placed in vain. Faith not misplaced is answerable like when Elijah prayed and fire came down on the sacrifice. That's my point. People don't have to wait until they die to know the truth about God or the scriptures.

No, faith is NOT simply trust in someone or something. I place my trust in people and things because I can verify that trust via reliable evidence. ALL religions insist that you take things on faith WITHOUT verifiable evidence. Of course YOU will claim that you DO have verifiable evidence. But that's EXACTLY what the moronic terrorist who convinced himself God wants him to murder in God's name claims... that THEY have verifiable evidence that the God telling them to kill is real. Unfortunately evidence that cannot be verified by OTHERS is useless.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I have already agreed that just because you have faith in something doesn't make it true. I think the faith the terrorist have is because of faith in the writings of their book, not because of thinking God has personally dealt with them. (But I could be wrong.) Maybe when I have more time I will share a few ways that God has shown himself to be real to me. You can be the judge. Of course if you don't believe what I say, or think I am lying, then it will do no good. Would I just be wasting my time?

You are more than welcome to share how you think that God has shown himself to you. However, I can almost guarantee you that whatever those experiences were that I have spoken with Muslims who will claim that they had similar experiences that convinced them that Allah has shown himself to them. So if the two of you can have similar experiences and you conclude it proves that the bible is the genuine word of God and the Muslim can conclude that it proves that the Koran is the genuine word of God, how reliable can these experiences be for ascertain actual truth?

 

[74x12]

No, faith is NOT simply trust in someone or something. I place my trust in people and things because I can verify that trust via reliable evidence. ALL religions insist that you take things on faith WITHOUT verifiable evidence. Of course YOU will claim that you DO have verifiable evidence. But that's EXACTLY what the moronic terrorist who convinced himself God wants him to murder in God's name claims... that THEY have verifiable evidence that the God telling them to kill is real. Unfortunately evidence that cannot be verified by OTHERS is useless.

Obviously, you have faith in the evidence that you believe is reliable. The idea you have no faith is really kind of ridiculous.

You keep asserting that Muslims have "evidence" that God told them to kill people. I happen to have the more realistic opinion that some Imam told them to do it or that they indoctrinated themselves on the internet or something like that. What is your proof that Islamic terrorists are inspired by some kind of perceived miracle or sign from heaven?

 

[74x12]

I wouldn't historical value as in written histroy, rather history value as in humans cultural history.
The fact is that we have the religious scriptures, so they are a huge part of humanity whether i like it or not

Other atheists could learn from you.

 

[74x12]

Atheism is not a POV.. its simply not believing GOD is a real thing.
I share that belief but i cannot deny the fact that the belief in a God (and mostly Monotheistic god) was a huge stepping stone for humans as a society.
The answer i gave you is actually the way to approach the Hebrew bible when studying the Oral Tora.

(In a very simplified way) this is the basics of learning the Hebrew bible:

Each word has its literal meaning.
Each word can be interpreted with ALL its meanings.
Each word have NO scoring in the original texts, so the word can be interpreted in any possible scoring
Each word have a numerical value
Each word should be treated on its own or in its context

There are many more things to understand, but start with that.

An example will be:

בראשית ברא אלוהים

This sentence (in the beginning god created) can be interpreted in the following ways (and many more):

so the sentence can be interpreted like that (for example):

בראשית ברא אלוהים
At the beginning god created

or

בראשית, ברא אלוהים
First, created powers

beyond that, each character in each word has a meaning and so on.

Interesting stuff. I want to study the Hebrew more but haven't had the time.

However I was under the impression that it's actually present tense. In the beginning God creates* the heavens and the earth. I only say that because I believe creation is on going rather than past tense.

The Oral Torah? Isn't that the Talmud? So did you study the Talmud?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Obviously, you have faith in the evidence that you believe is reliable. The idea you have no faith is really kind of ridiculous.

You keep asserting that Muslims have "evidence" that God told them to kill people. I happen to have the more realistic opinion that some Imam told them to do it or that they indoctrinated themselves on the internet or something like that. What is your proof that Islamic terrorists are inspired by some kind of perceived miracle or sign from heaven?

IF you have verifiable evidence, absolutely no faith is required. I will admit that when it comes to insubstantial claims that there are times that I DO take things on faith. For instance, if someone who I have no reason to believe has ever lied to me tells me that they have a dog at home, I'm more than willing to accept their claim without any verifiable evidence. Why? Because I know OTHER people who have dogs at home. Also, if it turns out that the person is lying, it really doesn't affect me in any way shape or form. However, if that same person claimed that they had a TALKING dog at home who speaks for God, I would NOT accept the claim on faith. It is a fantastical claim and thus I would require verifiable evidence that it is true.

I keep asserting that Muslims have convinced themselves that they have evidence that God tells them to do this or that, not that the 'evidence' they claim to have is valid. The only evidence I have is that they claim to have been shown the truth by God. Just like the only evidence I have that God has shown YOU the truth is your assertion that he has. For all I know YOU were indoctrinated by some religious leader to believe that if you pray hard enough God will 'reveal himself' to you or that you indoctrinated yourself on the Internet to be able to convince yourself that God is showing you truths.

If you acknowledge that OTHER religious groups can 'indoctrinate' followers to believe in false miracles and signs from heaven, how can you be so certain that your own religious group hasn't done the exact same thing to you?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I disagree. But, as we agreed, there are scriptures that aren't black and white. Would 3 manifestations help you any? Like we, as humans, have three manifestations, each different, yet together one?

You said you disagree, so would you please provide the scriptures, where the apostles taught the trinity - or where the word trinity is mentioned - or where they said there were 3 persons in the Godhead?

What 3 manifestations of humans are you talking about? Is each of these 3 manifestations a different person?

 

[Kenny]

You said you disagree, so would you please provide the scriptures, where the apostles taught the trinity - or where the word trinity is mentioned - or where they said there were 3 persons in the Godhead?

OT

• Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)
• Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)
• "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)
• "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)
• The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)
• In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)

NT

• John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (speaking of Jesus by the Apostle Thomas)
• 1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? (If it is God's Spirit, it is God)
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was Godl (Speaking of Jesus)
• john 14:16 Helper, to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (all three)
• 2 Cor 13:14 iThe grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and kthe fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

What 3 manifestations of humans are you talking about? Is each of these 3 manifestations a different person?

1 Thes 5:23 May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So when your body dies and becomes dust... was it different from your spirit?

 

[Segev Moran]

Other atheists could learn from you.

Thanks, but i have to say most atheists i met "sound like me"... meaning,
they have great respect to religion.

I share many atheist's fears regarding religion.

 

[Segev Moran]

Interesting stuff. I want to study the Hebrew more but haven't had the time.

It is indeed interesting.

However I was under the impression that it's actually present tense. In the beginning God creates* the heavens and the earth.

who knows ?
Based on the Jewish belief, although god doesn't "create" as it created every thing required for existence in 6 periods of time.
The seventh period clearly states that the act of creation is done.
from that point on, god is never described to create anything, rather manipulate things.

I only say that because I believe creation is on going rather than past tense.

like evolution and such?

The Oral Torah? Isn't that the Talmud? So did you study the Talmud?

I study some every time but oral tora is not only Talmud
it is an endless subject to learn.

 

[74x12]

who knows ?
Based on the Jewish belief, although god doesn't "create" as it created every thing required for existence in 6 periods of time.
The seventh period clearly states that the act of creation is done.
from that point on, god is never described to create anything, rather manipulate things.

The 7 days are not solar days. They are lighted by the light of Genesis 1:3 before there was a sun. Therefore there is no solid reason to believe they are 24 hour periods of time as we know them. On the contrary they are days to God. I'm not certain God even counts time the same way we do. It says God rested from all His work on the 7th day. I suspect in a certain way; the 7th day is yet to come when God is truly finished working. This is when the new heavens and earth are finished. (Isaiah 65:17)

like evolution and such?

Well no, not for me. But I understand some people believe the scriptures that way.

I study some every time but oral tora is not only Talmud
it is an endless subject to learn.

Are you Jewish?

 

[74x12]

IF you have verifiable evidence, absolutely no faith is required. I will admit that when it comes to insubstantial claims that there are times that I DO take things on faith. For instance, if someone who I have no reason to believe has ever lied to me tells me that they have a dog at home, I'm more than willing to accept their claim without any verifiable evidence. Why? Because I know OTHER people who have dogs at home. Also, if it turns out that the person is lying, it really doesn't affect me in any way shape or form. However, if that same person claimed that they had a TALKING dog at home who speaks for God, I would NOT accept the claim on faith. It is a fantastical claim and thus I would require verifiable evidence that it is true.

So then in that case if you knew a lot of people that had talking dogs at home would you be surprised if another person also claimed to have a talking dog?

My point is that just because something seems extraordinary; that doesn't mean there can't be evidence for it. (Disclaimer* I'm not arguing that people have talking dogs.)

I do acknowledge that people can be indoctrinated. Not just religious people but secular ones as well.

 

[QuestioningMind]

So then in that case if you knew a lot of people that had talking dogs at home would you be surprised if another person also claimed to have a talking dog?

My point is that just because something seems extraordinary; that doesn't mean there can't be evidence for it. (Disclaimer* I'm not arguing that people have talking dogs.)

I do acknowledge that people can be indoctrinated. Not just religious people but secular ones as well.

Yes, if talking dogs were common then it wouldn't be a fantastical claim. And absolutely, just because something seems extraordinary doesn't mean there can't be evidence for it. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Any reason why you didn't answer my final question?

"If you acknowledge that OTHER religious groups can 'indoctrinate' followers to believe in false miracles and signs from heaven, how can you be so certain that your own religious group hasn't done the exact same thing to you?"

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Hey before we get too far into everyone arguing at each other, and nobody actually listening, I want to suggest a simple solution.

The Bible is a work that is roughly 3000 years old, and accounts for events probably older than that (the time before Noah for instance accounts about 1656 years, so there were generations of storytelling before that), and it is filled with cryptic and symbolic stuff, why not just read a novelized version of the Bible?

https://www.amazon.com/Book-God-Wal...F8&qid=1525909484&sr=8-1&keywords=book+of+god

This is basically my "Bible", it's a novel version of the Bible, that skips Adam and Noah until much later (they start with Abraham), and tells the story of these guys as actual people, how they lived, and how God helped their lives. It even gets at the core detail of why the curtain ripping in the Temple was so important, since this would go over the heads of any non-Jews.

 

[Milton Platt]

The scriptures are hard to understand. If God doesn't reveal the truth; then you won't understand.

Not exactly a stellar communicator, this god.......

 

[74x12]

Yes, if talking dogs were common then it wouldn't be a fantastical claim. And absolutely, just because something seems extraordinary doesn't mean there can't be evidence for it. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Any reason why you didn't answer my final question?

"If you acknowledge that OTHER religious groups can 'indoctrinate' followers to believe in false miracles and signs from heaven, how can you be so certain that your own religious group hasn't done the exact same thing to you?"

Extraordinary evidence is available for those who seek God through faith. For anyone else not so much. However it's God that draws people to Himself.

How can you be certain that you have not been indoctrinated yourself? Have you ever questioned your own thoughts? What? A questioning mind that doesn't question himself? What if I told you there are entities that put thoughts in people's minds that seem like their own thoughts but aren't?

I don't agree completely with anyone I know on religious or spiritual topics. Although we may agree on some basic things I like to study things out for myself and see what God will show me. I'm not parroting what some religious leader told me. Although I believe it's important to be able to learn from anyone if they say the right thing. I also believe people should submit to one another and not be stubborn but teachable.

Not exactly a stellar communicator, this god.......

Well, the dove lands where he may find a place for his feet. Maybe you've played Tetras so you know that you have to put the right shape in the right spot. And one key is made for one lock and doesn't open another door. So then, wherever God sends His Word it prospers in the thing He sends it to do.

 

[74x12]

Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)

What is His Son's Name if you can tell? It was a riddle but revealed in it's due time. Jesus is the true Israel. One Israel made an earthly nation. The true Israel makes a spiritual nation that cannot die anymore. This is prophecy as it says in Proverbs 30:1.

"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)

This is Jesus alright. And prophecy. Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Word is the Light of Genesis 1:3 which is the Light of God manifest. The Word was hidden with God since the foundation of the world but revealed in His due time.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)

Prophecy! Jesus is the anointed the Messiah.

 

[Milton Platt]

Extraordinary evidence is available for those who seek God through faith. For anyone else not so much. However it's God that draws people to Himself.

How can you be certain that you have not been indoctrinated yourself? Have you ever questioned your own thoughts? What? A questioning mind that doesn't question himself? What if I told you there are entities that put thoughts in people's minds that seem like their own thoughts but aren't?

I don't agree completely with anyone I know on religious or spiritual topics. Although we may agree on some basic things I like to study things out for myself and see what God will show me. I'm not parroting what some religious leader told me. Although I believe it's important to be able to learn from anyone if they say the right thing. I also believe people should submit to one another and not be stubborn but teachable.


Well, the dove lands where he may find a place for his feet. Maybe you've played Tetras so you know that you have to put the right shape in the right spot. And one key is made for one lock and doesn't open another door. So then, wherever God sends His Word it prospers in the thing He sends it to do.

I don't see faith as a reliable path to knowledge. Name something you cannot believe solely on faith.......
I rather think empirical knowledge is thus-far the most reliable means to that end.

If it's god that does the "drawing", then I will wait for that day. But he must do it by providing credible evidence of his existence. Apparently, those who believe in him are also waiting for credible evidence as well, because when I press them for it, they continuously provide logical fallacies, poor arguments, or fall back on faith again.